Amnesty is Comming

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The Mighty Gerbil

The Mighty Gerbil

Tribe of Judah TF 2 Chapter Leader & CGA Admin
Staff member
S. 1639 http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:S.1639: After being rejected the first time has passed the house of representatives. Amnesty is coming unless something is done. Whatever your stance on amnesty people fail to realize a couple of important things.

1. This is the SECOND time amnesty will have been given. It legalized millions when it was passed under Bush Sr. Now a estimated 12 million more are going to get it.

2. In such a hotly contested issue I see no logical reason to include amnesty and border security in the same bill. This is probably a effort to get it passed by including it together. Have fun reading it all too. It've already heard it called "longer than the Bible" (technically it's not, but, it is looooong) Wonder why? http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=3291452 Also to further confuse you it does not say the word "amnesty", but, it is in the first paragraph.

3. It has not been shown that the proposed increases in security will be effective (I've read estimates are a 25% reduction). Supposedly this bill makes it so any future illegals are deported. Hmmm just what has changed? The borders will probably still be open and you've already shown that all you need to ok a crime are enough people doing it. Are we going to give amnesty a 3rd or 4th time? Just how many people can America absorb?

4. The ideal that illegal immigrants do jobs that other citizens won't is absurd, against the polls and there are Americans who need jobs now that have been taken by illegals. Illegals make up 24 percent of workers in agriculture, 17 percent in cleaning, 14 percent in construction, and 12 percent in food production. So 86 percent of construction workers, for instance, are either legal immigrants or Americans, despite the fact that this is one of the alleged categories of untouchable jobs.

5. Suspected terrorists have been deported because they were illegal before. Now you will have to prove they are a terrorist (which is much harder) to do anything about them.

6. Amnesty Bill S-2611 (4/7/2006) , S-2612 (4/7/2006), S-1348 (5/9/2007), and S-1639 (6/18/2007) are all the same bill. Obviously some people are just going to keep pushing this unless someone offers a alternative, but, no one seems to be. Meaning if we don't get that alternative this ones going to pass eventually.

7. I know S. 1639 is Bush backed, but, it is sponsored by Senator Kennedy. A person who seems synonymous with many things I object to on a moral level.

I realize SOME of these illegal aliens just want a better life and try to follow all of our laws that they can. However, just how much is it going to take to pick the tree bare? The US has a deficit of $ 8,808,679,115,989.91 and many legal humanitarian efforts to support around the globe already. These people can't be helping because they don't have money or they wouldn't be coming over illegally. Why do these people get special permission to break our laws? Not to mention all the other crimes that have come with them. I guess I'm going to have to learn Spanish pretty soon. You already cannot communicate with lots of the people you meet here. Please note I have nothing against Spanish people who immigrate legally, even if they haven't learned english yet (there were many Spanish people here from Texas's start). In fact I tend to wonder how all the illegals effect the flow of legal immigration. Are people not willing to break the law going to be rejected because we have taken in so many illegals?

Question: I have not read the entire bill, but, it seems to grant full medical care and recreation to detainees (those crossing the border after amnesty). It mentions a fine, however, just how do they extract it? My question is are detainees put to work paying for this? If not, ARREST ME! I mean if I was dirt poor and needed stuff it seems like a no brainier.

I personally have a solution, but, I know they will never do it. Arrest them (the illegals that are here) like the criminals they are and give them a choice of deportation or to be put in prisons (special ones not general population ones). There they will learn English and all the necessities for immigration and more importantly work to pay for this service and border security. If you do not work you would get no recreation time and no release. Meanwhile their children can be educated and housed with them at their expense as well. This would settle any debate on the economic impact of deporting illegals as they would be doing the same job (in economic fulfillment) they were before and provide a sure path to immigration. Of course there would be a outcry of slave labor (which it is not) so it would never happen. Already the ones who are going to get amnesty are supposed to pay a fine, but, if we are unwilling to deport them or imprison them I do not see how this fine is to be extracted.

I do not like Rush Limbaugh because of his swagger/attitude in general, but, he makes a very important point sometimes. Here is one from a couple years ago http://www.agapegraphics.com/Apr_6_Rush.wmv (I plan on removing this file at some point so you know)

Anyway what are your opinions? Keep it civil please.
or
¿De todas formas cuáles son sus opininons? Manténgalo civil por favor.
 
Oh my. Political discussion.

One of these days, I may revisit the idea of creating a separate forum for political topics.

As a journalist, my first reaction to anything anyone writes on a controversial topic is: There's always at least two sides to every story.

I haven't researched the topic thoroughly enough to offer an informed opinion, but I will add this to the conversation:

One must remember the perspective of the illegal immigrant for a moment. If your nation was struck by poverty and you could work to support your family by crossing a border, even if it was illegal, would you do it? It's easy enough to say, "Toss them all out!" from behind our air-conditioned homes, mocha lattes, and cable television, but would we act any differently if we saw crossing a border illegally as the only way to work and buy food for our family members?

We happened to be born in one of the wealthiest nations in the world (those of us born in the United States). We could just as easily have been born into poverty.

In all the stories you've read on illegal immigration, has a single illegal immigrant worker been interviewed?

I don't say this to foster a "fat cats in Washington v. the valiant illegal immigrant." This topic would not be controversial if it was simple. It's terribly complicated and it's not as easy as "hero v. villain."

My question is this: What about the employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants at substandard wages? These are the same people who were purchasing slaves, forcing children to clean chimneys, espousing social Darwinism to exploit Italian and Irish immigrants, and outsourcing jobs to other countries in years past. These are the people who will find labor at the lowest cost by any means, even if their methods are morally reprehensible.

EDIT: I made this post primarily to offer a counterpoint to Gerbil's post. I agree with some of the points he made, while I exaggerated some points in my post to spark conversation. As long as the thread remains civil, it will stay open.
 
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Politics is an everyday topic so it should stay in the general forum sloth.

I personally think we need to deport them, if we don't then everyone and their brother will still come into the US because they know they wont get sent back. Affirmative, strict action is needed to show the world that Americans wont tolerate people breaking our laws.

In 10, 15 years who will we be if we allow invaders into our country? Already we are seeing portions of the country turned because these illegal immigrants fail to embrace our culture or our ways. Crime increases as these people come. Having to live in the shadows skews the perception of right and wrong. When you are already breaking one law you have a large tendency to break even more.

Right now it is rather pitiful, even if the police find illegals they have no legal jurisdiction to take them into jail. They can't actively search for and detain suspected illegal immigrants. What will end up happening is this being repeated every few years because the government can't enforce its own policies.
 
I believe the US needs to open its borders to anyone who wants a place to stay. My girlfriend and her family came here from Mexico on a work visa, and are getting dual citizenship really soon. They tell me really sad stories of people living in crazy poverty, who want to try and come to the US, but can't. There's no reason they should come and join us. We are the melting pot. It shouldn't stop for any reason.

And I guess I am thinking, "What would Jesus do?" Would he say, "No, you can't come to this country to pursue a better life. You'll have to toughen up. Fix your own country. Bye bye." No. He'd welcome them with open arms. That's what we should be doing. I say shame on you for not thinking the same.
 
The problem is the US can't handle an influx of immigration, there are existing limits in place for a reason. When you have large communities comming in it tends to make places like chinatown in new york where crime thrives and laws go unenforced.

The limits aren't just on mexicans, its on anyone who wants to come into the US. They need to stay or the economy goes to pot and the average life style goes downhill.
 
tjguitarz said:
I believe the US needs to open its borders to anyone who wants a place to stay. My girlfriend and her family came here from Mexico on a work visa, and are getting dual citizenship really soon. They tell me really sad stories of people living in crazy poverty, who want to try and come to the US, but can't. There's no reason they should come and join us. We are the melting pot. It shouldn't stop for any reason.

And I guess I am thinking, "What would Jesus do?" Would he say, "No, you can't come to this country to pursue a better life. You'll have to toughen up. Fix your own country. Bye bye." No. He'd welcome them with open arms. That's what we should be doing. I say shame on you for not thinking the same.
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Shame on me? (I think you're completely wrong, TJ)

Not gonna bother getting into it... I think - and hope, that this bill isn't going to make it.
 
*thinks he should get his girlfriend on CGA to pwn you all*

I think the bill will have more support than you think. Politicians usually do whatever will get them the most votes. Considering the Hispanic population is rising exponentially... well, you do the math.

I think rather than deferring these new people from out country, we should try and get them to go to areas that aren't very populated and help build them up. Places like Kansas come to mind.
 
As I understand it, it's not people like your girlfriend's family that present a problem. It's those who come illegally for whom there is no documentation, etc. It does become a problem. No one's taking a jab at your girlfriend.

Just sayin'. Disclaimer: I know it's hard for those who TRY to come here legally and they can't. It's complicated.

I heard an interesting argument on the radio today, but I can't seem to find a transcript. I'll update if I find it.
 
tjguitarz said:
*thinks he should get his girlfriend on CGA to pwn you all*

I think the bill will have more support than you think. Politicians usually do whatever will get them the most votes. Considering the Hispanic population is rising exponentially... well, you do the math.

I think rather than deferring these new people from out country, we should try and get them to go to areas that aren't very populated and help build them up. Places like Kansas come to mind.
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Yes lets double the crime rate in kansas..
 
If you legalize all the immigrants, employers will be forced to pay them minimum wage... which means there will be no incentive to hire them over citizens. The job will just go to the most qualified applicant, which is the way it should be.
 
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"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
 
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I'm not adamantly for one or another idea here. But I do think it's important we be reminded of what our country means to many people.

Also, why point fingers at illegal immigrants for lack of jobs in the United States, but not computers? Haven't computers caused much of the autonomy of our businesses, and have therefore put some people out of work?

Again, I'm not necessarily siding for one idea or the next, but some of the arguments against immigration are a bit one sided. For example, freeing up illegal immigrants and giving them amnesty will also give many people jobs. More people in America doesn't exactly mean less jobs; it may (and usually does) mean more opportunity for many people.
 
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Let me please stress I don't think anyone here wants to see anyone suffer in poverty, but, there is a right way and wrong way to help people. While the bill has some good points It is inadequate to the task at hand and the manner it is being passed is a poor way to pass any legislation.

Tek7 said:
Oh my. Political discussion.
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While this is technically a political discussion I eschew thinking that way because I always think of it these things in a moral sense. Since the idea of separating politics and morality came into being I think a lot of evil things have been done because they were only "politics". I am certain you agree I just wanted to point that out.

Tek7 said:
One must remember the perspective of the illegal immigrant for a moment. If your nation was struck by poverty and you could work to support your family by crossing a border, even if it was illegal, would you do it? It's easy enough to say, "Toss them all out!" from behind our air-conditioned homes, mocha lattes, and cable television, but would we act any differently if we saw crossing a border illegally as the only way to work and buy food for our family members?

We happened to be born in one of the wealthiest nations in the world (those of us born in the United States). We could just as easily have been born into poverty.
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Believe me I do feel sympathy for anyone in poverty, but, because we are having to deal with illegals here what happens to those who are starving and dying on the other side of the planet (um Iraq anyone?). Helping them requires resources that are being used by those who are illegal here (welfare etc.) The people in the Sudan have no government to work with, unlike the Mexicans who's government may have corruption, but, does not want them dead. I tend to think the Sudan's plight is more pressing. Even if you don't it should be our choice who we help and who we do not, it should not be made for us. Also I am not in favor of simply deporting those illegals who are already here. I really don't think the media would allow the pictures of 12 million men women and children being forcibly evicted to go unnoticed. Neither do I think Mexico is ready to handle the influx. I am for them earning a opportunity to stay. I stress that it should be EARNED, not given in what amounts to (a almost) free ride like the amnesty bill is purposing. Too many people died to protect our liberties to give them out pell-mell.

Also while I am not in poverty there have been times when government aid could have helped greatly (the welfare people told my Father at one point my mother could have gotten some aid if he divorced her -_- , but, different subject). I've never had a mocha-latte or cable television, but, my Father was hit (in a car accident) by a illegal with no auto insurance. My point is what about those legal citizens who are denied help because of the burden of helping illegals?

Tek7 said:
In all the stories you've read on illegal immigration, has a single illegal immigrant worker been interviewed?
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I have seen a interview on TV with some illegals, they are people like any other. Some even pay taxes because they feel badly about what they've done. Then there are those that protest in the streets and others that commit murders. Actually some of the illegal ones feel the ones that protested were wrong to do so (at least in that interview one did). All of which highlight why we have a legal immigration system to begin with, so we can control who gets in and who doesn't.

Tek7 said:
My question is this: What about the employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants at substandard wages? These are the same people who were purchasing slaves, forcing children to clean chimneys, espousing social Darwinism to exploit Italian and Irish immigrants, and outsourcing jobs to other countries in years past. These are the people who will find labor at the lowest cost by any means, even if their methods are morally reprehensible.
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That some people will deliberately keep people in poverty for their profit is definitely morally reprehensible. However, as you have said there are two sides to everything. I've thought about this in relation to the business we are losing to China because they do things cheaper. When you can give 100 people food and medical care or give 1000 people food which is better? Is America is ready give up some job benefits to be competitive in a global environment? Some people around the world would be happy to work in a sweat shop if they got to eat. Vacations, retirement plans, social security, fair wages and even medical care are meaningless when you are going to starve tomorrow. Note the bill has paragraphs on fining employers of illegal immigrants as well as just about everything else even vaguely immigrant related. I personally think we need to work for economic independence from the rest of the world (not unifying our economy with Mexico) or we will find our polices being influenced by those dependences as we are with oil.

tjguitarz said:
I believe the US needs to open its borders to anyone who wants a place to stay. My girlfriend and her family came here from Mexico on a work visa, and are getting dual citizenship really soon. They tell me really sad stories of people living in crazy poverty, who want to try and come to the US, but can't. There's no reason they should come and join us. We are the melting pot. It shouldn't stop for any reason.

And I guess I am thinking, "What would Jesus do?" Would he say, "No, you can't come to this country to pursue a better life. You'll have to toughen up. Fix your own country. Bye bye." No. He'd welcome them with open arms. That's what we should be doing. I say shame on you for not thinking the same.
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The problem isn't we don't want to help it's we cannot support the population of the whole world. Yes I said of the world not just Mexico (not that we could do even just Mexico). How can we discriminate against other nations if we are willing to allow one nations residents to come over? What about those poor Cubans that risk their lives on rafts trying to get here? What about those Chinese women who don't want to get a abortion because they are over their limit on children (it happened a while back)? What about those who are fleeing a country because of a oppressive government etc. etc. This is why I believe we should be in the world as a nation helping other nations in their needs, but, we can't do all that (or at least as much) if we are paying for those who just want a free ride. Some illegals do, others don't, which is why we need a legal immigration system. I've also been told about a 700 club report (from a reliable source) that interviewed some illegal immigrants (or their children) saying they would be more willing to fight for Mexico than America. There are also Mexicans out there who believe Texas never should have become part of the USA http://www.eco.freedom.org/articles/wall-307.shtml. You cannot expect anyone who crosses our borders to hold to our values or much less vote to uphold those values. Especially with that whole Muslim kill the Great Satan thing :p http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/Commentary/NewsBlogs/StakelbeckOnTerror/060331.aspx

If you want to know what Jesus would do. In John 5:3 he heals one man not the multitude. Technically he could have feed and physically healed the whole world but didn't. 2 Corinthians 12: 7-9 Tells of Paul NOT being healed when he asked God to do it. Also Is stealing a sin or not because illegal immigrants are stealing services. My point is like any loving parent sometimes the answer we get from God is "no".

Creating dependences in people helps no one (note we should already be dependent on God). Instead of the population of Mexico coming here lets help Mexico fix it's problems and become self sufficient. The saying is "Give a man a fish feed him for a day. Teach the man to fish feed him for a lifetime." The problems in Mexico will still generate more illegals no matter how many we let in if not addressed. We could give away everything and still not have enough for all the people in this world who need help. Prioritize and address the root of the problems.

tjguitarz said:
I think the bill will have more support than you think. Politicians usually do whatever will get them the most votes. Considering the Hispanic population is rising exponentially... well, you do the math..
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In spite of the massive grassroots campaign against amnesty (which is how I got informed about the bill to begin with) it probably WILL pass eventually. Politicians are very wary about doing anything unpleasant, war, etc. Which is what we would have if we tried to punish illegals in any way. In fact I feel the general push in this age is allow everything but the right of people to say something is wrong.

Do votes factor in? Yes I think the 12 million votes they will have if amnesty goes though, plus supporters votes are a factor (however I think they will lose some votes over this as well). Yes Hispanics now outnumber African-Americans as the leading minority, but, don't you think all that illegal immigration had something to do with it? Remember this is the SECOND amnesty. Meaning the number exceeds 12 million who have immigrated illegally. Plus you must factor in any children born from illegals. Whom, while legal, are still the result of illegal immigration indirectly.

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/d...06&m=July&x=20060707160631jmnamdeirf0.2887079 As of July 2005, the Census Bureau reports a total U.S. population of 296.4 million. Of this total, Hispanics comprise 42.7 million Americans while blacks, including both African Americans and more recently arrived Africans and blacks of Caribbean origin, total 39.7 million. The Census identified 14.4 million Asians, 4.5 million American Indians and Alaska natives and nearly 1 million native Hawaiians and Pacific islanders.
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Just a interesting article I stumbled across http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html I do not vouch for this site as I have NOT researched it thoroughly... and the sandman is attacking the Gerbil once more ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Oh and so you know, if I come across too strong I'm perfectly mellow and peaceful about the whole discussion... just long winded :p
 
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Tek7 said:
Waitwaitwait...Did you just call me a sloth?

Or was there merely a mistyping of the word "slot"?
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I called the general forum a sloth, which has several wonderful definitions which fit it well including "A pack of bears", a better definition is a pig trough, I can't spell so don't take it personally as I didn't imply you.
 
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