10 Objections to Christianity and How to Respond

Gris, I concur with your scriptures there,  but that's not the exact concept of Calvinistic predestination.

Calvinistic predestination claims that God predestines people by choosing which individuals accept salvation and which don't.  Those that accept are the elect.


The other camp of predestination (called Arminians which is closer to where I fall) is that God predestines people by pronouncing (but not deciding) who will accept salvation. He makes this pronouncement using his foreknowledge, which enables him to see what people will do in the future. He sees who will choose to accept his offer of salvation.
 
Aaah, but Kidan, you made a fatal flaw in your statement which DOES ruin Calvinism. You said that God dictates those who will be saved AND THOSE WHO WILL NOT. This is false. God does not say "You will go to hell." They were going to hell by proxy. Any dictation on a non-elect person's decision is PASSIVE, not active.

I at first was an Arminian, too, but after study I've come to the conclusion that Calvinism is correct.

The biggest problem with Arminianism or any other view of pre-destination is this: why do some people choose Christ and others do not? Is one better, or more understanding of their own condition, than another? Without predestination, arrogance lurks, whether intentional or not.

Also, please forgive me for not looking up the verse, (I will later if necessary) but are you familiar with the verse that goes

For those he foreknew, he also called, and those he called, he also predestined, and those he predestined he also sanctified, and those he predestined he also glorified.

? What then is this calling? If we are to substitute the word "some" in there, violence is done to Christian theology as we see that only SOME that he sanctifies he glorifies, when surely all believers are glorified in Heaven. However, if we put ALL in there, we see that ALL whom God specifically calls come to salvation.
 
but the fatal flaw, is THE fatal flaw of Calvinism.  Calvinism states that unless God has said 'You get to go to Heaven' There is NO CHANCE for your salvation.  That would be fine, if Christianity was no an evangelistic religion, but we are out there teaching that the Kingdom of God is open to ANY who accepts Him.


Now to your verse:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
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The greatest and mightest of the predestination verses.  But let's really look close

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]For whom He did foreknow
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Who does God foreknow?  He knows everyone that has, does, or will exist.  There are none that He does not foreknow.  REmeber we're talking about God here.  Christ gets to say 'I knew you not' if you don't accept Him, but God knows us from the womb.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son
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Predestinate, is a form of predetermine and the definition for that is "To determine, decide, or establish in advance:"  So those He knew before (i.e. at the start of time, and all) He determined that they have a chance to be like His Son (notice the verb 'to be')
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]that he might be the firstborn of many brethern
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God wants His children to love Him and come to Him.  But While He  knows the outcome of our choices, the choice is still ours.
 
Gris,

Well, you're quite right there. I can't choose a God whose presence I don't feel, can I? The problem is that, in my ecclesiastical travels, I've felt the presence of quite a few deities.

Some are smaller than others - some persist only in a few sanctified places, others I can reach whenever I want. Personally whenever I've walked into a cathedral I've always felt like I've entered a tomb. It's impressive, and you can hear the faint echoes of power, but there's no anima anymore. Sometimes I look at the priests and wonder how long it's been since their rituals were two-way things to a living God. During my attempts to be a good Christian I never once felt the immediacy, the spiritual tap on the shoulder, that I've felt since finding my own path. Praying felt like shouting down a well, there was never any response.

So, if Yahweh IS out there, at least he knows that I made the effort to meet him halfway.

Eon
 
Eon

You are a man of many wide and varying views, and so out of curiosity, not out of argument, I ask you,

What exactly is this path that you have found for yourself, and how are you getting a response from it?

You'ev presented yourself knowledgeable in many religions, but I don't beleive you've ever specified your adherence to any formal religion.
 
I'm an Asatruaar, in other words an Odinist (although my patron deity is actually Thor, not Odin).

I was very confused for a long time - I experimented with many faiths and once I decided to follow the path of my ancestors, I was confused again, because the path seemed clear at first, but always there was some obstruction.

In the end I concluded that rather than finding which path would choose me, I was going to have to make a choice myself - I have always had an affinity with my Norse ancestors, and once I set foot down the path of Asatruism things progressed at an almost frightening pace.

How have I had a response? Well, I've taken part in various rituals, from a Christian Harvest festival to a Norse ritual of rebirth and renewal. All of them had a greater or lesser sense of resonance within me - but it wasn't until I started down the path of Paganism that I began to get the sense of something watching me back. I got on to a greater or lesser extent with the various Gods and Godesses. I found myself unable to participate as a Wiccan, because of basic belief incompatibilites, which is in no way a comment on the validity of Hecate, Isis, or any of the other Godesses, because I've been awed by their sense of presence and their power, but rather a sense of kinship that I find with the Norse gods that I haven't felt elsewhere.

I hope that answers your question - if not feel free to ask more specific questions.

Eon
 
Very interesting. I did know that people still believed in those gods (that's not an insult, just an admittance of my ignorance
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). I am still a bit confused, though. You used words like "patron" deity, and spoke of feeling other gods' presences. Does this mean that you believe in many gods? I hesitate to say all Gods, for if you believe in ALL gods,you believe in Jesus' deity, and if you beleive that, it should follow that you believe he is the only way. So, basically, do you believe that all of these gods (perhaps even Yaweh) exist, yet none demand total devotion?
 
I believe that most of the Gods that man has worshipped exist in some way or form that I don't fully understand. I HAVE to believe this, because of my experiences. Doing pathworkings with Wiccans to Isis, I really did feel her presence. Doing pathworkings as an Asatruaar I've felt the presence of Thor, Odin and others. Perhaps the act of worship itself gives them power - it's a bit like the chicken and the egg riddle, I'm not sure which came first, and I'm not sure it really matters.

Now different Gods have different strictures and tenets. I imagine that a large number of them claim to be the "one true God". HOWEVER, I personally have never had a deity itself tell me that it is the one and only - I've only ever had its priests do so. So I've come to the conclusion that the claim of exclusivity - like most of the Dogmatic errors - are errors of fact or interpretation by the priests of that deity, rather than childish arrogance on the part of the deity itself.

Yes, I do believe that Jesus existed, and I'd be a fool to deny Yahweh, wouldn't I? Whether I believe everything written down about them in a book, however, is a different matter entirely.


Eon
 
OK - I think I'm beginning to understand.

However, with gods such as these (as you used the chicken and the egg analogy), would these gods CEASE to exist if not worshipped, just as they "become stronger" in worship?

Furthermore, from where do you gather your information of these gods? You have said that you do not go only one what is told of them in books, and you have also said that none have spoken to you directly.

Also, what makes these beings gods? These gods are obviously not omnipotent, and if you believe in greek, roman, and egyptian gods, you can clearly see that they have major faults, just as humans. What, then, qualifies them as gods?
 
That's a very good question - and one I'm not sure about. I would tend to believe that Gods are independent of their worshippers - since although there has been no hiatus where the Aesir and Vanir haven't been worshipped (at least in secret) there certainly HAVE been hiatuses with the Egyptian deities, I believe, and Osiris and Isis seems to have lost little of their power!

Where do I get my information? Well, I DO use books - they are a wonderful source of information. For example I'm currently reading "The Book of the Dead" which is a direct translation of Middle and Late Kingdom funerary hierglyphs taken from tombs in Egypt. This seems as close to source as I can get without learning hieroglyphs and buying a plane ticket. I also discuss matters with those who have more personal experience - I have contacts in the Pagan / Wiccan / Heathen world with whom I've had long talks. Everyone has a different perspective, and listening to them can be useful. Some deities have been the contact in either pathworkings or more complex rituals that I've participated in. The sense of presence was unmistakable, but a noisy public milleu does little to promote personal communion with a deity. My relationship with the Norse gods is more personal and more habitual, though. For years and years I've worn the hammer. I've often held it to my lips briefly before beginning a journey - either physically or metaphorically, and the taste of the bronze has always brought me new courage, new faith and the strength to wade on against the tide.

Regarding "what makes them Gods"... Well, yes they have faults. Thor's got his temper. Odin's blind in one eye. Zeus can't keep it in his pants, apparently and Hera gets VERY worked up about it - inflicting her wrath more often on blameless humanity than on Zeus himself.

Doesn't your own faith say that God made us in his image? Why should we assume that physical form would be the most important part of that image? There is a reason why flawed heroes are more compelling. It's because to struggle against that flaw and succeed is what elevates the human to the superhuman. What sort of adversity could possibly afflict an omnipotent and omniscient being? What can we learn from His example? Perfection more often inspires derision than admiration - because where is the victory in such an uneven contest? What is said about the gambler who only gambles when there is no risk of losing?


Eon
 
Well, perhaps I'll go into this further tomorrow (its getting late here) but I just have one question

could you give me the name and translator of the book you're reading? I'd love to read that sometime (i'm very into antiquitic texts...plan to major in the classics)
 
I'm afraid that it's probably out of print, but for reference the book is called "The Book of the Dead" and the translator is E.A. Wallis Budge.

Eon
 
Oh well, I'm sure there are other accurate translations available, correct?

And one day, Eon, when I have my own translation of it, I'll give you a signed copy, along with a signed copy of the JSV of the Bible (Jeff Standard Version) once that's out.

But it is good, neh?
 
Eon if you are truly open to other views on things. Please check out two books. "This present darkness", and "Piercing the darknes". By Frank Peretti. They will give you a diferent perspective on pagan rituals. I challenge you to read them. It has been said many times that christians follow thier belifes blindly. All i ask is that you read these books, and get a Biblical view on this topic. They are fictional, in fact Peretti has been dubed the Stephen King of Christian Fiction. I followed many different paths before i found the truth. i was a hard core New Ager for five years. I studied all the mythologies, including norse. but becase i was seeking the truth, the truth found me. If you seek the truth it will find you. "Seek and you will find".
Take care and God BLess
Rand NobleBlade
Paladin
 
Rand, I did and have... Right now which of us is right is a matter of opinion.
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I'll see if I can dig up those books you mentioned, but I don't have great faith in anyone writing dogmatically about "Pagan rituals" - thanks to two millenia of persecution the free interchange of Pagan ideas was somewhat restricted. Thankfully Pagan religions form the single fastest growing block of religions within Europe - within a hundred years or so I can see a time when we have reached the same level of sophistication as our forebear, even if recovering the lore itself is sadly impossible.

In addition, there is NO such thing as "Thors big book of Pagan Rituals" - Dogma is a latin invention as well as a latin word. Pagan priests tended to personally interpret what they saw as metaphysical truths, rather than slavishly carrying out the steps of a central rite.


Eon
 
I'll have to research Paganism. I find I know very little about it ( and my worst grades in Latin come from the mythology units =P ). So, Eon, do you consider yourself a pagan or a pantheist (pantheism as in belief in ALL gods, not referring to the Universe as a whole))? Oh, and if you are the latter, of Greek and Roman gods with different names, do you believe that Ares and Mars (gods of war, correct? like i said, this is my weak area, but you get the idea) are two seperate gods, or one god with two names (such as Jehohva/Yaweh)?
 
I guess I'm pantheistic then, because I've actually "met" Godesses (never Gods for some reason, I guess broads are more chatty) of other religions too often to not believe in them.

However what I've seen is a mote in the eye of the infinite, I haven't done much with the Aboriginal faiths in the Antipodes. I've done almost nothing with the South/Meso American faiths or with the native Americans either.

I believe that Gods are bound in tightly with their people - so Ares, Mars and Tyr might represent broadly similar concepts, but the Greek, Roman and Viking definitions of war are quite dissimilar.

Eon
 
Could you please go into further detail regarding these meetings?
And also, I'm still not sure about your beliefs...with so many gods running about, what defines a god in your eyes?
 
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