[b said:
Quote[/b] ]When looking at the concept of a roll of the elect, this issue is not that freewill is an illusion - just that it is robbed of all importance. If God has decreed that YOU are on the roll and that I am not, then what is the point in my believing ANYTHING? You claim that man is corrupt, forcing God to punish us - yet he made us in his image, and Christians are STILL exhorting us to become more like him.
The first time that Adam and Eve exercised freewill and became more like God (gaining the knowledge of Good and Evil), however, he threw them from the garden, because they lacked the strength to choose good over evil once they had the ability to discern the two.
I mean, excuse me, but I'm getting some bloody mixed signals here. "Be like me, but not TOO much like me or I'll smite you. Do what you want, but don't do EVERYTHING that you want, or I'll smite you. I've drawn up a list already and if you're not on it, then I'm going to ensure you're tortured for the entirety of your existence (and you'll exist forever)." Come on!
Hrmm..where to begin? I suppose the top.
Free will still holds immense importance. In fact, it's our free will that supplies the need for election. Futhermore, as I said before, we still make a choice for Christ. I guess I just don't understand why free will is losing it's meaning to you. When I first began contemplating this (before ever hearing of Calvin or "the elect") I did see a major conflict between God's sovereignty and man's free will. However, I see now that they perfectly coincide - they do not clash, but are both left intact. I suppose I could better answer your question if you'd please elaborate a bit, my freind?
About the tree...we've always had free will, and this free will was exercised by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, as you said. First of all, he threw them from the Garden for the sin of eating the fruit which God had told them not to eat - they could eat ANY fruit in a garden paradise, and yet they still disobeyed. This sin is why they were thrown from the Garden - not the gaining of knowledge. However, from there, as you said, men were STILL not able to choose right from wrong.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]At the same time that "turn the other cheek" is being preached you have people trying to seize control of secular legislation and christianise it, marginalising those of other faiths.
Could you perhaps give an example? I'm not sure what you're talking about, nor its relevance.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Christianity is the most populous faith in the Western world, and the various state churches are IMMENSELY wealthy and influential and yet the priests STILL bleat on about being delivered from those who would opress and persecute!
All churches DEMAND tithing and donation from their adherents, citing the need for earthly works of good as their mandate. And yet the cause celebre' for the various Christian sects appear to be nothing more earth shaking than protecting and enriching their wayward hierarchies, and attempting to scuttle the literary plans of J K Rowling, writer of the Harry Potter series. (At present it's Church 0 : J K Rowling 7 (5 books + 2 films)).
My church certainly does not DEMAND tithes or donations - rather, it is God that demands them. Sneer at that if you like - I know you will. It doesn't matter, though. It's a church of a God who demands tithes; it makes sense. About Harry Potter, I have nothing against it and have actually read the first few. Please try to avoid generalizations.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The question that Predestination raises in MY mind is WHY BOTHER? If you have the roll of the elect, then why not JUST create the elect and be done with it. Create them ALL now, create nobody else and stop playing stupid games with people.
OK, here's the biggie. Why bother? Eon, you're here fighting for free will and all of a sudden you don't even wanna be born? Why bother? Why NOT?
God did not create us so that we may be eternally happy. He created us for His glory. However, in his love, he set apart a number of us to be saved - that's a BEAUTIFUL thing! Furthermore, if none that are to be punished are created, what profit is salvation? I am not implying that people are created to be punished, or that this punishment pleases me, but simply that there are apples and oranges in the world.
Create them all now and stop playing games with people? You're missing the point, Eon. God is not randomly poofing people into existence left and right, simultaneously damning/saving them. What is going to happen on Earth is going to happen..God does not DICTATE everything that happens. He ALLOWS everything, He MAKES POSSIBLE everything, but he does not dictate - free will, my good freind Eon. Free will.
I'm not sure how else to answer that anymore right now..feel free to reply.