10 Objections to Christianity and How to Respond

[Moody]

Quote[/b] (mpty @ June 17 2003,11:12)]Just believing there is a "Higher power" won't do diddly if you don't accept that there is only one True God, and that He sent His son Jesus to die for the sins of the world. Only accepting this will get you into heaven... Um.. well, there's a lot more involved.. but yeah.

Also, life isn't the easiest thing at times. That's why God is there, by your side, 24/7 for you to lean on.

Actually accepting that probably won't get you to heaven. "Mathew 17:24Then Jesus said to his deciples If anyone wants to come after me he must deny himself and take up the cross and follow me." Jesus is not a free ride to heaven, we have to pay for it with your life in a holy service to him.

 

[timor]

OK, on the subject of the Pacific Islanders and what not...

This is really quite a simple thing once looked at from Calvinistic predestination, to which I hold .
We've established that all men sin and none are, without Christ, worthy of Heaven.
Salvation, grace, is just that. It's undeserved mercy. God doesn't HAVE to let anybody get into Heaven. Yet he does, through his Son Jesus Christ. God set apart a number of mankind as a lovegift for his Son. Furthermore, (I don't feel like looking up the verse atm) no men truly seek after God, and without a calling from God, men would never choose Christ.
Now, if we follow this logic, the Pacific Islanders, whom we are using as an example, neither deserve to go to Heaven, nor would choose Christ had they heard of him without God's intervention. Therefore, them never having heard of Christ is nonconsequential as, since they assumingly died unsaved, never would have come to Christ in life.

I hope that made sense..kind of hard to give both a VERY brief explanation of predestination and an arguement that points to predestination in one forum post, hehe. But basically, those whom God has determined will be saved WILL be saved, no matter what.

 

[mpty]

Hey! I said there's a lot more involved too...

 

[timor]

Hehe, sorry, didn't read your post..kinda just jumped ahead and replied =D Good to see another calvanist

 

[Mr_Eon]

So, what you're saying basically, is that freewill is an illusion? God has predestined the roll of the elect, and therefore this whole mess has been a useless waste of time.

In point of fact, God turns into some sort of machiavellian facist who delights in the pain of others, and subjects them to eternal torment on the basis of unrevealed criteria that they wouldn't have had a hope of fulfilling even IF they'd have some forewarning.

Of course, Occam's razor tells us to cease needlessly multiplying hypotheses. If you believe in Augustine Pre-destination then, in all likelyhood, Christianity merely a psychic safety blanket used to give people an excuse for o'erweening arrogance and to make them feel better about the atrocities they commit on those who are, after all, not "Gods Chosen".

Eon

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (Mr_Eon @ June 21 2003,7:40)]So, what you're saying basically, is that freewill is an illusion? God has predestined the roll of the elect, and therefore this whole mess has been a useless waste of time.

In point of fact, God turns into some sort of machiavellian facist who delights in the pain of others, and subjects them to eternal torment on the basis of unrevealed criteria that they wouldn't have had a hope of fulfilling even IF they'd have some forewarning.

Of course, Occam's razor tells us to cease needlessly multiplying hypotheses. If you believe in Augustine Pre-destination then, in all likelyhood, Christianity merely a psychic safety blanket used to give people an excuse for o'erweening arrogance and to make them feel better about the atrocities they commit on those who are, after all, not "Gods Chosen".

Eon

Eon, my post deserved certainly did not deserve this rant, as I stated that the doctrine of pre-destination can find itself sold short in BOOKS, and I am merely posting on a simple message board.

Free will certainly exists. In fact, it's a crucial aspect of pre-destination.

I suggest to you "Chosen by God" by R.C.Sproul, as this book may help to demolish many of the misconceptions you obviously have regarding pre-destination. Seriously, people who don't understand it (and that's not an insult - it's complicated) very often do serious violence to such a beautiful doctrine with fallacious logic and a hostile attitude.

 

[Mr_Eon]

Let's take it as read that I'm not going to go out and buy books on Christian doctrine. After all, how likely are you to go out and pick up books by Gerald Gardner, Snorri, Doreen Valiente et al in order to get the Wiccan/Heathen/Pagan view point?

A wise man once said to me that any idea not capable of being boiled down to a single side of A4 was not a very good one. Given that premise, it should be simple enough for you to explain the beauty of Augustine Pre-Destination (a doctrine so vile, imho, that even the Catholic church discarded it) to me.

Eon

 

[Kidan]

You never know Eon, some of us might just have one or two of them on our bookshelfs. Theology and religions in general are endlessly fascinating to me (much to the consternation of my wife), and I have books on a number of major religions (although truthfully most of the books on religion are on mine, but that's to be expected) I do have books on demons and angels, on demonology, on wicca, on hinduism, on budhism, on taoism, on islam, on Japanese and aboriginal myths, on classical myths (Greek/roman). I am missing stuff on norse mythology, though i've read a number of websites for our conversations

 

[Mr_Eon]

Well, maybe so - but if I bought a book everytime the words "may I reccomend" crossed my monitor, I'd be;

1. A pauper.
2. Living in a library. And kind of a scary library too...

Eon

 

[Kidan]

this is true,

but that is why we have libraries (as my wife lovingly tells me every time i come home with a new book..)

 

[[7F]Griswald]

wow... how easy it is to create a story that excludes God from the equation and then use it as an excuse of why he does not exist or that he is indifferent and withdrawn  

How about this "what if": He is on his death bed and Christ comes to him in a vision pleading with him to repent, but because of the mans bitterness/hardness of heart over something he held against someone who called themselves a Christian (but was not) he rejects God. *** This is just a what if... but the truth is I don't know how God does it! How could I? I am not God ;-)

We easily accept what is told to us by scientists and reporters whom may only seek fame and to be approved by men (do we really know these men or their character? could they have warped the events to fit their agenda or the agenda of their employers?)... yet we refuse to believe in God because it does not fit our lifestyle or belief system or because he has not appeared to us in person... we say he needs to reveal himself but reject him when he is talked of and is a historical figure who did reveal himself and was rejected by almost everyone and murdered. His ministry lasted 3 years! He was crusified at 33 years of age.(If I recall correctly... but feel free to double check

There were witnesses but we refuse to believe even that! We claim he was a good teacher, yet if he was not the Son of God then he was just a liar and a fraud? How can this be? How can he have done those miricles, they are not supposed to be possible! It all must be a lie! Just like the nazi thing... 6 million jews were not murdered by the nazi's... that was just another lie (after all I didn't see any of them die that way!). Maybe Christianity makes us feel uncomfortable... if God did exist he would not do that... Who is judging who now? I am not judging anyone here but rather challenging our thought process so that we stop with the fabricated test cases and justifications and make our descision based on what is happening in our hearts right now? Do you feel convicted? Why? Do you feel angry? Why? I don't expect to convince anyone to believe in God, but rather point the finger in his direction and let him reveal himself to you. He saves... not me. I cannot own someone elses relationship with God... I can tell you what he has done in my life, but if you choose to think me a liar then I cannot stop you. So why is it easier to believe strangers whom you don't know vs believing Christian strangers whom only point to God and say it is not by my rightousness that I am saved but by his righteousness...  Why do we look at people who commit sins instead of looking at Christ and what he taught. Tell me what selfishness would cause a person to serve people and love them for who they are... but at the same time encourage them to become like his Father... love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you. Forgive others as God has forgiven you through Christ. If I am not doing these things does that mean God does not exist? Or does it mean that I am not perfect? No one is perfect even if you are a Christian we are all works in progress...

Instead of looking everywhere else for why not to believe can we not first look at our own lives and hearts to see what is real... a real test case! (Am I perfect? Do I do things that are sinful? Where did I get my values? Have these values changed because it made me uncomfortable or more comfortable? Are these posts an invitation from God? Is he calling out to me? I cannot answer this as I am not you... but you can) In the end we will stand before him alone... whom will we blame for our hardness of heart or lack of faith.

Why have we been communicating our faiths on this forum? Is it because we think we are soooo smart? (NOT!) We have shared so that you will have had an opportunity to hear this salvation freely given by God... so instead of "what if's" lets look at what we are saying and judge it based on what is happening in your heart right now? Is there anything happening there (anger, conviction etc...)? Why is that? God can reach us through hearing about him via word of mouth or his living word... If I see a sinner saved by Christ be completely changed what does that mean? How many of you can make yourselves change? (I mean really change! Change of heart and character... not perfection, but a new person who responds differently when just a minute ago they were as hard and cold as a stone.)

Anyhow consider what you believe... for he is coming soon and tomorrow is not guaranteed to anyone. At least you will stand before him and say that I had a chance and you did speak to my heart, but I chose to ignore your call Or I heard and responded to your call. Accept responsibility for what you believe instead of passing the buck! In any case we are allowed to believe what we want... the choice is ours.

 

[timor]

Hey Eon - sorry, tried to post this last night but at the last minute this site got REALLY slow for me for some reason..was odd...anyways, here's my response:

Man is corrupt.
God, knowing he will have to punish man, establishes a way for us to be spared of this punishment. of people is God's elect.
God sends his son, Jesus Christ, to die and be ressurected so that we may be spared through faith in Him.
However, because of our corrupt nature and our tendency to flee from God, God calls some (His elect) to come to faith in Christ. Without this calling, none would come to faith.

This does not mean that God dictates every moment of our life - rather, he dictates hardly any. He does not even order us or even molest our free will in order for us to come into faith. All he does is simply call us, knowing that we would not accept the calling of preachers without the divine calling of Him.

Free will is left wholly intact. But, on a side note, if God was required to violate my free will to ensure my salvation..I'd be more than happy to let him. However, he does not.

If for some reason you think that this calling is violation of free will, consider this. No will is truly "free". A decision (made with a "free will") that is free from bias, tendency, or influence is a pointless decision. If you have absolutely no reason to pick either A or B, your choice is meaningless. Human beings act on their strongest desires at the moment of action. Is this not true of even yourself? For instance, I'm sure you'd like to sleep-in every morning. This urge is probably pretty strong. However, I suspect your urge to bring home money to support yourself (and/or family) is stronger, driving you to go to work.

That was a little longer than I had expected, but it should be sufficient for continuing the conversation..I'm going to bed in a few minutes, so good night

__
I'm willing to go deeper into this if you wish, but I think the point is moot, because it's a highly debated topic among CHRISTIANS...

 

[Mr_Eon]

When looking at the concept of a roll of the elect, this issue is not that freewill is an illusion - just that it is robbed of all importance. If God has decreed that YOU are on the roll and that I am not, then what is the point in my believing ANYTHING? You claim that man is corrupt, forcing God to punish us - yet he made us in his image, and Christians are STILL exhorting us to become more like him.

The first time that Adam and Eve exercised freewill and became more like God (gaining the knowledge of Good and Evil), however, he threw them from the garden, because they lacked the strength to choose good over evil once they had the ability to discern the two.

I mean, excuse me, but I'm getting some bloody mixed signals here. "Be like me, but not TOO much like me or I'll smite you. Do what you want, but don't do EVERYTHING that you want, or I'll smite you. I've drawn up a list already and if you're not on it, then I'm going to ensure you're tortured for the entirety of your existence (and you'll exist forever)." Come on!

At the same time that "turn the other cheek" is being preached you have people trying to seize control of secular legislation and christianise it, marginalising those of other faiths.

Christianity is the most populous faith in the Western world, and the various state churches are IMMENSELY wealthy and influential and yet the priests STILL bleat on about being delivered from those who would opress and persecute!

All churches DEMAND tithing and donation from their adherents, citing the need for earthly works of good as their mandate. And yet the cause celebre' for the various Christian sects appear to be nothing more earth shaking than protecting and enriching their wayward hierarchies, and attempting to scuttle the literary plans of J K Rowling, writer of the Harry Potter series. (At present it's Church 0 : J K Rowling 7 (5 books + 2 films)).

The question that Predestination raises in MY mind is WHY BOTHER? If you have the roll of the elect, then why not JUST create the elect and be done with it. Create them ALL now, create nobody else and stop playing stupid games with people.


Eon

 

[Guest]

Identifying the problems of a religion is rather redious and pointless sense every religion has problems, instead of defending it, you should be attempting to evolve it, but every person is a hypocrite one way or another, and every one is a sinner one way or another, c'mon everybody is human, to take away right to be human, you end up psychologically messed up, and end up amurderer or rapist, so acceptence and evolution is the answer to any of the modern relgions.

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] ]When looking at the concept of a roll of the elect, this issue is not that freewill is an illusion - just that it is robbed of all importance. If God has decreed that YOU are on the roll and that I am not, then what is the point in my believing ANYTHING? You claim that man is corrupt, forcing God to punish us - yet he made us in his image, and Christians are STILL exhorting us to become more like him.
The first time that Adam and Eve exercised freewill and became more like God (gaining the knowledge of Good and Evil), however, he threw them from the garden, because they lacked the strength to choose good over evil once they had the ability to discern the two.
I mean, excuse me, but I'm getting some bloody mixed signals here. "Be like me, but not TOO much like me or I'll smite you. Do what you want, but don't do EVERYTHING that you want, or I'll smite you. I've drawn up a list already and if you're not on it, then I'm going to ensure you're tortured for the entirety of your existence (and you'll exist forever)." Come on!

Hrmm..where to begin? I suppose the top.
Free will still holds immense importance. In fact, it's our free will that supplies the need for election. Futhermore, as I said before, we still make a choice for Christ. I guess I just don't understand why free will is losing it's meaning to you. When I first began contemplating this (before ever hearing of Calvin or "the elect") I did see a major conflict between God's sovereignty and man's free will. However, I see now that they perfectly coincide - they do not clash, but are both left intact. I suppose I could better answer your question if you'd please elaborate a bit, my freind?
About the tree...we've always had free will, and this free will was exercised by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, as you said. First of all, he threw them from the Garden for the sin of eating the fruit which God had told them not to eat - they could eat ANY fruit in a garden paradise, and yet they still disobeyed. This sin is why they were thrown from the Garden - not the gaining of knowledge. However, from there, as you said, men were STILL not able to choose right from wrong.

Quote[/b] ]At the same time that "turn the other cheek" is being preached you have people trying to seize control of secular legislation and christianise it, marginalising those of other faiths.

Could you perhaps give an example? I'm not sure what you're talking about, nor its relevance.

Quote[/b] ]Christianity is the most populous faith in the Western world, and the various state churches are IMMENSELY wealthy and influential and yet the priests STILL bleat on about being delivered from those who would opress and persecute!
All churches DEMAND tithing and donation from their adherents, citing the need for earthly works of good as their mandate. And yet the cause celebre' for the various Christian sects appear to be nothing more earth shaking than protecting and enriching their wayward hierarchies, and attempting to scuttle the literary plans of J K Rowling, writer of the Harry Potter series. (At present it's Church 0 : J K Rowling 7 (5 books + 2 films)).

My church certainly does not DEMAND tithes or donations - rather, it is God that demands them. Sneer at that if you like - I know you will. It doesn't matter, though. It's a church of a God who demands tithes; it makes sense. About Harry Potter, I have nothing against it and have actually read the first few. Please try to avoid generalizations.

Quote[/b] ]The question that Predestination raises in MY mind is WHY BOTHER? If you have the roll of the elect, then why not JUST create the elect and be done with it. Create them ALL now, create nobody else and stop playing stupid games with people.

OK, here's the biggie. Why bother? Eon, you're here fighting for free will and all of a sudden you don't even wanna be born? Why bother? Why NOT?
God did not create us so that we may be eternally happy. He created us for His glory. However, in his love, he set apart a number of us to be saved - that's a BEAUTIFUL thing! Furthermore, if none that are to be punished are created, what profit is salvation? I am not implying that people are created to be punished, or that this punishment pleases me, but simply that there are apples and oranges in the world.
Create them all now and stop playing games with people? You're missing the point, Eon. God is not randomly poofing people into existence left and right, simultaneously damning/saving them. What is going to happen on Earth is going to happen..God does not DICTATE everything that happens. He ALLOWS everything, He MAKES POSSIBLE everything, but he does not dictate - free will, my good freind Eon. Free will.

I'm not sure how else to answer that anymore right now..feel free to reply.

 

[mpty]

My church does not DEMAND tithes. We don't even take collections, but there is a small, unimposing... (seriously!) box at the back of the sanctuary for people who really feel moved to give...

 

[Kidan]

actually TImor, I kinda have to agree with Eon on the case of predestination.  The entire concept stinks of removing free will.  

There is a concept that every choice we make creates a new reality depending upon our choice.  IMO God knows all these realities, and we get to choose.

The tree. We were thrown from the Garden so that we would not eat of th tree of life.  The punishment for disobeying God and eating of the tree of hte knowledge of good and evil was death (a sentence passed down unto all mankind and why we need salvation) the ground being cursed so that we have to work hard to bring forth food, woman's greater pain during childbirth, and man's being responsible for the spiritual and physical well being of his family.

While my church does have a formal time of the service to pick up tithes and offerings, only formal members are required to tithe (it's in the covenant we sign to join the church SA: Articles of War ).

 

[timor]

It doesn't at all take away free will, though.

And while yes, our decisions create new realities, God also knows WHICH reality we will choose - not only all of the possible, but also the true. Does this mean that his sovereignty does not allow us to choose A over B? No, simply because we would not have chosen A over B anyway, due to our desires which drive our decisions.

 

[Mr_Eon]

The whole thing, though, is supposed to be a great big choice at the end of our lives that ends up in heaven or hell. Wrong choice is eternal torture, right choice is eternal salvation.

If the choice is predestined by an authority figure who LITERALLY has the power to control any and all variables, then the question becomes one of control and the application of that control. My personal belief is that it is impossible for a deity matching the description of the Christian God NOT to have affected and controlled every single thing that happens in creation. By definition - they created ALL of it, right down to the tiniest design detail.

So it becomes a question of trust. Do I trust the Christian God? Well, does the chimpanzee trust the scientist? No.

Eon

 

[[7F]Griswald]

Predestined
I don't think we are communicating properly about the context of what was said in the Bible...

Ephesians 1:5
he[1] predestined us (sinners) to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

Ephesians 1:5
Long, long ago he decided to adopt us (sinners) into his family through Jesus Christ. (What pleasure he took in planning this!)

Ephesians 1:5
His unchanging plan has always been to adopt us (sinners) into his own family by bringing us (sinners) to himself through Jesus Christ. And this gave him great pleasure.

He is not talking out predestined individuals(you go to heaven, you hell etc...), he is talking about sinners! The plan was in place from the beginning when we were all sinners. He planned our (sinners) salvation from the start through his Son. His plan has never changed, he has intended to save all those who call on Christ.

I would not expect you to trust someone you don't know... and from what I can see from your response is that you do not know the Christian God or His Son. (Which is OK!) So do you think that you can appropriately and wisely decide what he is about if you don't know Him or His Son? (Not picking on you here, just asking you to ask yourself the question) It will make no difference to me what you choose, however for your own benefit choose wisely... this is not the time to be slack and lazy about how you determine what you choose. Make your choice based on careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises. (I am not talking about what some other people have been doing... remember you may pay the price if you choose to believe in something that is a load of garbage) In fact I suggest you seek him out and see if he shows himself to you.

Later.