10 man content

I think I have a unique perspective as I went from having my own guild with 5 active members and raiding 0 in Classic WoW, to being in the SGA, joining The Forgiven and raiding 5 or 6 nights a week in TBC to now raiding in Wrath and trying to limit my raiding time to 2 at most 3 nights a week. I know this limits what runs I will go on.

My healer is running with pretty much the same raid group on Thurs and Fri's that she has for the past 1 1/2 to 2 years. Would I like to raid with an all Forgiven group, sure. In doing so though, would mean that I would need to hurry and get another toon to 80, something I am not willing to do. I decided when Wrath came out I was raiding waaaay too much and that I wanted to take my time to lvl my toons.

When Dren hit 80, I was fortunate enough to get her back into my old group at a time when our guild wasn't rdy to run 10 or 25-man runs. Now that they are, I don't think it would be fair to just up and drop my current grps run, who have helped me get my full T7.5 gear and run with a new grp. That leaves them with trying to find another geared healer who may not have the same "chemistry" with my current grps members.

I know healers and tanks are hard to come by. What the SGA does is opens up the opportunity to pull from a large group of people who are hardcore raiders down to casual raiders alike. Like Anita said, some may be a bit rough around the edges but they are a good group of people, much better than you would find in general chat for the most part. Are there problems sometimes, of course, that's natural as there will always be personality conflicts. As Anita also said, many in the SGA are like an extension of our guild and can be trusted as one of our own.

The last thing I want to mention before Nyquil takes me into a peaceful slumber, until my head stops up again of course, is regarding the whole "raiding guild, not raiding guild" question. This is how I see it and have seen this mentioned somewhere before. I feel that The Forgiven, and 95% of the SGA guilds as a whole, are guilds that have raiders (and casual players alike), not raiding guilds. We don't limit our membership in order to have the perfect balance of toons for raids nor do we have set times and demands for these toons. The SGA as a whole though, has enough people that when someone wants to raid, there is a good chance that you can find enough to form that raid. Will that mean that you have the same people every week? Prob not. Even the grp I run with doesn't always have all the same people, but there is a good core grp that can usually make up for the shortfalls. The main thing is to make yourself known, sign up for runs and hopefully you get in, if not, there is always next time.

I now end my wall of text and head to bed.
 
What doesn't make sense to me is I am being told I will probably need to go to SGA to find additional raiders because our own members are raiding with SGA. Strange logic there but OK, if that is what it takes then I am ok with that.,
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It's not strange logic at all. It's perfectly logical. Ppl put RL before the ingame *wants* of guildies and because of that they often find themselves in sga runs that fit their schedule.
The Forgiven is a place where you can do just that. ("Not a Raiding Guild")- So you don't *Have* to play x amount of hours, raid x amount of days etc. What you do here is based on your RL schedule and not basing RL on a WOW schedule.

Pretty simple. -
but as I said, you might surprise me (putting together a 3rd 10 man) but do not expect others to stop running SGA just to satisfy a need to have another 10 man run.
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The best way to go about getting invited or forming runs is:

1) Good attitude, indear yourself to others. (gear, attitude, helpful) sign up as a sub, incase a reg can't make it. Sometimes subs become regs.., because a reg takes some time off or just gives up their spot as they don't need loots and want to be generous to someone else.
2) You can try to lead a run and even invite some SGA to fill out spots. (As I see your willing to do)
3) Promise everyone a free klondike bar.
 
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3) Promise everyone a free klondike bar.
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That was funny! It is certainly something I am willing to do. I myself prefer a soft served vanilla ice cream cone but I understand that would be a little messy.

Well this week so far I have been invited to two raids being a sub which is a good start. Please keep me in mind all you established raiders whenever a temporary OR permanent spot opens up. I do try to play my best for the raid and have a good attitude and I am willing to bring klondike bars if that is what it takes to raid.

Brian
 
A few other tips to endear yourself to raid leaders:
- Know the fights: spend some time reviewing the encounters. Know the boss abilities and how to avoid or counter them. Watch videos if you can find them. The less explaining a raid leader has to do, the faster the run goes, and the happier they are.
- Come prepared: make sure your gear is repaired. Have food and elixir/flasks ready for the first boss. If you need to bring additional gear (offspec, resist) don't forget it in the bank. ;)
- Be there on time: often raid leaders like to start invites a few minutes early in order to start pulls asap. If you're at the instance 10-15 min before the raid starts, you'll help get the raid moving a lot quicker.
 
Know the fights: spend some time reviewing the encounters. Know the boss abilities and how to avoid or counter them. Watch videos if you can find them. The less explaining a raid leader has to do, the faster the run goes, and the happier they are.
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Good point. At the same time sometimes I don't know who we are fighting until I am invited into the raid. I just need to ask more.

What boss(es) are being taken on tonight? I will go to tankspot.com to look them up to see the strategy that is being used.

Come prepared: make sure your gear is repaired. Have food and elixir/flasks ready for the first boss. If you need to bring additional gear (offspec, resist) don't forget it in the bank.
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Does anyone know what battle/guardian elixirs would be good for a Ret Pally? I brought some agility battle elixirs with me last night but I wasn't sure what guardian elixir to use.

Be there on time: often raid leaders like to start invites a few minutes early in order to start pulls asap. If you're at the instance 10-15 min before the raid starts, you'll help get the raid moving a lot quicker.
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Agreed. I have a phobia about being late to anything so being on time or even early should not be an issue.

Brian
 
So here comes my oar in. I'd like to spend some time talking about what it actually means to "not be a raiding guild" and what it means to be part of the SGA. I'd like to spend a little time ranting on our current state of SGA/guild alliance, as well. Bear in mind that some of my comments may be a little pointed, but they are pointed at the guild in general and not at Brian specifically.

I will also come back to talking about and to Brian, at the end.

"We're not a raiding guild" says the guy with a Sarth25+1D chest piece
So, we've got a conundrum here. Lots of people in our guild say over and over and over again that we are NOT a raiding guild, and then they have to jump down Teamspeak channels because their raid is starting.

Kind of confusing.

We may NOT be a raiding guild, but we have teams that clear do Naxx10, EoE10, clear OS (10) and Vault (both) on a weekly basis. Some of our players, such as myself, have characters who are "done" 10-man, or at least just need one more drop. A lot of our end-game emphasis is on raiding, as it seems that the PVP-fevered cohorts of earlier days are gone from our midst (or working on degrees.)

And, frankly, it can be hard to get into those raids. Not all of our raiders are comfortable just picking up any old guildie and putting them in our raids, especially when we're on 3rd-level WLK content (EoE,) which demands mastery of at least 1st and usually 2nd level (read: Naxx Spider/Military; the rest of Naxx) content. So, in some ways it seems like our guild is TOTALLY a raiding guild.

It's not, however. But in order to understand what it is that makes us NOT a raiding guild, I think we need a definition of a raiding guild to work with.

A Raiding Guild is a guild where the focus and the entire reason for being in the guild is to experience and defeat end-game content.

Based on that definition, let me make a few statements about how TF would be different if we were a raiding guild:

1. If TF was a raiding guild, every player, upon reaching level 80, would be able to expect a spot in an existing or newly formed raiding team.
---that's just not how it is around here. Moreover, players who have this attitude are problematic to the workings of TF. This is different than how Brian has approached the subject, by the way, seeing as he asked if he could get in on some raid action, rather than either demanding the action or waiting for it to fall into his lap. Level 80 players in TF are expected to take their own initiative for figuring out what they are doing in end-game content.

2. If TF was a raiding guild, raid leaders would be synonymous with guild leaders; raiding would be synonymous with being in the guild.
---This one seems a bit harder to pin down because it seems that so many of our raid leaders are guild leaders: Mike and Danny are officers, after all. Bob's not, however. But that's not what I mean, exactly. What I mean is that in TF, raid leaders are not connected to officer-ship. If your raid leader makes a call on loot, or on invites, or on whether to do Malygos or Kel'thuzad this week, and you don't like it, you do not talk to the officers, you talk to the raid leader. The officers are not the governing body of the raid; the raid leaders are. Our raid leaders are simply players who wanted to see end-game content so much that they started leading raids. TF officers tend to keep out of raid leader business unless we receive a real complaint about conduct or something along those lines. The Forgiven is NOT synonymous with Mike+Danny's Group Alpha raid team. It is equally NOT synonymous with Bob's Team Omega runs.

3. If TF was a raiding guild, players would be expected to play according to the guild's standards.
---In a raiding guild, you are recruited into the raid team to perform a particular role. You play that role, and none other. And you spec to fit that role. Let's say the guild wants a Shadow Priest. If you have a priest, you're now Shadow. Do you take Silence? Imp Wand specialization from Discipline? Well, actually, you don't have a choice. You just take what your raid leader tells you to take. Next patch, we're getting dual-spec. Let's use Brian for an example: he's a Ret paladin. Maybe he wants to dual-spec to protection. No dice; we have enough tanks right now, says Mike: You MUST spec Holy. Copy this build. Or maybe he doesn't want to be anything but a Ret pally, or he wants to go Ret(soloing) and Ret(raiding.) Not likely.
And it's not just specs. You're showing up on time for the raid. You're farming potions and food beforehand, too. You put out x DPS and stay alive through all the fights. If you let DPS stacks fall off of Malygos y times, you're out of the raid. And out of the guild, because the guild is the raid.
TF has always stood for "you play what you want." We don't tell you how to spec (although some people might kibitz if your spec is all over the place,) and we won't tell you where to spend your dual-spec. If you want to dual spec Moonkin(single target)/Moonkin(AOE), go ahead. Also, we won't tell you when to farm and what to farm. Our raid leaders WILL expect you to show up on time for raids, however, otherwise they're leaving without you. But they won't kick you out of the guild if you say that you can't meet a 6:30pm raid start.

4. If TF was a raiding guild, players who did not perform would be removed.
---See above. I don't think much more needs to be said.

I know that some people are reading this and saying "Woah! This guy has a seriously warped view of what raiding guilds are like!" And you may be right. This is, however, everything that TF is NOT. It's what we're diametrically opposed to.

So, next time you here someone say "TF is NOT a raiding guild," understand that what they are saying is "we will not define how you play and we will not become synonymous with our raids -- and you cannot just assume you're getting a spot because you're 80."

TF and the SGA
The Forgiven has a long, rich history of interactions with the SGA. We co-founded them 3 years ago, along with Clan Wind, the Arctic Raiders, and a few guilds I've forgotten about. In Classic WoW, it was almost unthinkable for a TF run to not have 20% or more SGA players. It was also unthinkable for an SGA run to not have 20% or more TF members. In Classic WoW, TF was the backbone of the SGA. (Not that the same thing can't be said for the Arctic Raiders or for Apocalypse Tortoise.)

Back in WoW classic, if someone had told you that you couldn't run a 3rd guild Naxx team, you'd have simply agreed, grabbed the 3-5 characters that you could, and found the rest of your regulars from the SGA channel. This happened a lot. Even as late as last year, our 3rd Karazhan team had 2 regulars from the SGA, Dan and Zack.

Nowadays, our guild seems to view the SGA as problematic. I'm not sure why. Most of our runs are trying to go inside the guild and even explicitly going against inviting SGAers. Maybe this is because certain players have had bad experiences with the SGA. If your first SGA raiding experience is coming along to one of Dan's 25man Naxx runs, you might here him chewing out his regulars/signups and decide that raiding outside of the guild is too scary.

Nonetheless, it is true that because TF is not a raiding guild, getting a team together inside the guild can take work. Some players, such as LarryBoy, can't make a 6:30 start or any start before 8:00. Others, such as myself, don't want to raid much more than I already do. Still others have relationships with the SGA players and feel it would be dishonorable to drop out of their runs to come join another run -- a laudable position.

It was for this very reason that TF helped found the SGA. The SGA is a great resource if you want to lead or attend raids but can't seem to field or find the right number of characters. The SGA sports a large number of quality players, many of whom are eager to join raid teams. Be advised, however, that the SGA values faithfulness above all else, and so most SGA players would much rather feel that they are joining a raid team that they can play with regularly, rather than simply being a stand-in for as little time as possible until you can replace them with a TF member.

Also, to comment on Anita talking about SGA as mission field: For many of the players in the SGA, their only contact with Christians has been negative, judgmental people who think that fun == sin and that God loves you, but his love seems a lot like human hate; or they have no contact with Christians other than what they hear about them, like the guy on TV who claims that natural disasters happen because people are nice to gays. Then they experience the mind-blowing and paradigm-shifting realization that Christians might be more like that nice guy who's constantly topping the DPS lists and who is a lot of fun to play with. Playing with TF members may be the only or first positive experience with Christians that SGA members get. Christians who aren't freaks and aren't haters, but who aren't quite your typical WoW players either. This is why I think TF needs to be involved in the SGA.

Brief Note to Brian
Yes, I did take 5/5 talents in Improved Wall of Text. I'll try be brief here.

When Adam said we don't have enough interest in a 3rd Naxx10, he meant that we don't have enough committed raiders at level 80 in the guild. He was right, at least for this month. He didn't mean to say that The Forgiven doesn't want to raid with you or only wants to have 2 runs going at once.

I've noticed you've got some runs in in the last couple of days. However, if you still find that you want a more predictable run and a don't mind doing the leadership thing, I'd advice you to grab a few players from inside the guild, and then prepare to witness to the SGA by being the most positive Christian raid leader that they have ever met. Believe it or not, most SGA players LOVE having a Christian response to loot, to real-life-happens, and to raiding in general.
 
I`ve already talked to you in game a bit BRian but I`ll post here too. TF`s second raid group "Team Omega" is not full. We technically have 5 consistent people in that raid. Tis can be really frustrating some days because it means that the run doesn't progress or does so very slowly. But that's not my point here. The point I would like to make is that our group still has room for people who would like to join a regular raid. Talk to myself or Bob in game or just show up on Monday nights around 6:30 server time and we can probably find you a spot.
 
Well that is great news. Please count me in as a regular member and let me know what spots still need to be filled. My preference is to find the same group of people to run on a regular basis with if possible.

Brian
 
Overall you did good last night on Malygos, being it was your first time there. But I don't recall where you were on dps meters. (That's one of those fights that really needs every ounce of dps a person can conjur up :) because of the timer.
 
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