Colorado Shooting Question

[The Mighty Gerbil]

I don't think I have been following the case as closely as others so I have a serious, though probably overtly imaginative, question. All internet accounts I've found say James Homes showed nothing wrong with him until recently, not buying any weapons, not being violent and maintaining high grades. Of course there is not much definitive information yet so everyone is asking what prompted the sudden change. What I have not seen are any questions about the work he was involved in. I'm thinking if there is any chance in real life of being exposed to a chemical that could make you psychotic wouldn't it be in neuroscience? Now there have been questions about him obtaining hazardous chemicals thought his graduate work to use as weapons so wouldn't access to mind altering chemicals be possible too? I mean they have anti-psychotic drugs wouldn't the opposite exist?

My question is there something you could be exposed to in neuroscience research that could make you go psychotic?

 

[Stc95]

Well if the real-life zombie that rampaged through the news a few months ago where the guy was high on bath salts, there is definitive proof that there are drugs that make you crazy. If those drugs are linked to neuroscience I wouldn't know. But I think it's safe to say, without straying too close to the conspiracy ledge, that there has to be drugs to do such.

 

[[toj.cc]phantom]

Well if the real-life zombie that rampaged through the news a few months ago where the guy was high on bath salts, there is definitive proof that there are drugs that make you crazy. If those drugs are linked to neuroscience I wouldn't know. But I think it's safe to say, without straying too close to the conspiracy ledge, that there has to be drugs to do such.

When tested the guy had no "bath salts" in his system, just marijuana. And didn't the Aurora Shooter drop out of school a year ago, what was he still doing working with things that make you go crazy?

Source on "zombie"

 

[Daniel434]

I don't think I have been following the case as closely as others so I have a serious, though probably overtly imaginative, question. All internet accounts I've found say James Homes showed nothing wrong with him until recently, not buying any weapons, not being violent and maintaining high grades. Of course there is not much definitive information yet so everyone is asking what prompted the sudden change. What I have not seen are any questions about the work he was involved in. I'm thinking if there is any chance in real life of being exposed to a chemical that could make you psychotic wouldn't it be in neuroscience? Now there have been questions about him obtaining hazardous chemicals thought his graduate work to use as weapons so wouldn't access to mind altering chemicals be possible too? I mean they have anti-psychotic drugs wouldn't the opposite exist?

My question is there something you could be exposed to in neuroscience research that could make you go psychotic?

AFAIK, in the field of neuroscience, it is not like the field of organic chemistry where you are exposed to and working with dangerous chemicals and fumes they exert in a lab. But I am not qualified to answer your question but here's my theory:

He probably read Nietzsche. Or Jean-Paul Sartre. Or Albert Camus. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, they all concluded that life is absurd and meaningless without God.

Another theory: His girlfriend dumped him.

 

[Keero]

He was also withdrawing from the school. Maybe it was too much stress for him?

 

[Stc95]

He probably read Nietzsche. Or Jean-Paul Sartre. Or Albert Camus. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, they all concluded that life is absurd and meaningless without God.

Nietzsche most definitely did not propose that God gave meaning to life. He fell more in the lines of Karl Marx and religion is the opiate of the masses.

As far as the bath-salts zombie, I also saw that article saying he didn't have any in his system, but I also know there has to have been something more than marijuana to make him do that. I also did some research on bath salts and the side effects match almost exactly to the guy. But this is getting slightly off topic.

 

[ewoksrule]

Don't forget the real reason behind it. Satan is real and active. His purpose on earth is to devour.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

And didn't the Aurora Shooter drop out of school a year ago, what was he still doing working with things that make you go crazy?

I'm not sure when he dropped out, news quote below...

Holmes enrolled last year in a neuroscience Ph.D. program at the University of Colorado-Denver but was in the process of withdrawing, said school officials, who didn't provide a reason.

As part of the advanced program in Denver, a James Holmes had been listed as making a presentation in May about Micro DNA Biomarkers in a class named "Biological Basis of Psychiatric and Neurological Disorders."

In academic achievement "he was at the top of the top," recalled Riverside Chancellor Timothy P. White.

Holmes concentrated his study on "how we all behave," White added. "It's ironic and sad."

Another news thing I read said he started buying the guns two months ago. Of course even if he did drop out the fictional chemical we are talking about could have permanent effects.

AFAIK, in the field of neuroscience, it is not like the field of organic chemistry where you are exposed to and working with dangerous chemicals and fumes they exert in a lab. But I am not qualified to answer your question but here's my theory:

He probably read Nietzsche. Or Jean-Paul Sartre. Or Albert Camus. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, they all concluded that life is absurd and meaningless without God.

Another theory: His girlfriend dumped him.

That's certainly the more likely scenario. Personally I too was leaning towards he was exposed to some "higher learning" material that made him think life was meaningless too. He also simply could have broke under the pressures of school.

We really don't know enough about the actual case to say anything definitively yet. So at this point I'm probably more interested in the moral the implications of involuntary chemical inducement to crime. If a chemical you unknowingly or accidentally were exposed to influenced you to do a crime where do personal responsibilities become negated by involuntary actions? How much exposure to such a chemical would it take to not be held accountable legally? 1ccs you are guilty 2ccs you aren't?

 

[shamgar07]

The weed was laced with something weither it be bath salts or something to make them go crazy. That's what I read. And honestly the shooter could have been abused verbally or physically. I had both done to me as a kid and I have anger Issues but bc of Jesus I am who I am today and don't not bend to the anger and violence. But It is sad for sure.

 

[Odale]

I don't think I have been following the case as closely as others so I have a serious, though probably overtly imaginative, question. All internet accounts I've found say James Homes showed nothing wrong with him until recently, not buying any weapons, not being violent and maintaining high grades. Of course there is not much definitive information yet so everyone is asking what prompted the sudden change. What I have not seen are any questions about the work he was involved in. I'm thinking if there is any chance in real life of being exposed to a chemical that could make you psychotic wouldn't it be in neuroscience? Now there have been questions about him obtaining hazardous chemicals thought his graduate work to use as weapons so wouldn't access to mind altering chemicals be possible too? I mean they have anti-psychotic drugs wouldn't the opposite exist?

My question is there something you could be exposed to in neuroscience research that could make you go psychotic?

Another news thing I read side he started buying the guns two months ago. Of course even if he did drop out the fictional chemical we are talking about could have permanent effects.

That's certainly the more likely scenario. Personally I too was leaning towards he was exposed to some "higher learning" material that made him think life was meaningless too. He also simply could have broke under the pressures of school.

We really don't know enough about the actual case to say anything definitively yet. So at this point I'm probably more interested in the moral the implications of involuntary chemical inducement to crime. If a chemical you unknowingly or accidentally were exposed to influenced you to do a crime where do personal responsibilities become negated by involuntary actions? How much exposure to such a chemical would it take to not be held accountable legally? 1ccs you are guilty 2ccs you aren't?

I seriously doubt he was accidentally or even purposefully introduced to some neurochemical that altered his brain's functioning in such a way that it only or mostly made him irrationally angry so much that it forced him to do what he did. Usually medication (such as SSRIs) have many side effects because serotonin serves many functions. SSRI is short for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. That means that serotonin stays in the gap between dendrites (neurons) longer and changes the effect the serotonin has on the brain. That's why psychoactive drugs have 50 billion side effects. For example, I take vyvanse. Vyvanse helps me focus, but it also kills my appetite, dries my throat out, and gives me insomnia (I don't know what neurotransmitter it affects though).

TL;DR - No.

 

[Wolfeman]

Don't forget the real reason behind it. Satan is real and active. His purpose on earth is to devour.

This. /me points to the above quote.

A preacher came thru our church a few months back and preached on "Nothing surprises God". God didn't wake up that morning, turn on CNN and go "Well, I didn't see that coming. Wonder what I'm gonna do about it." According to the Bible, this is all on schedule and according to His purpose.

 

[Abba San]

I agree that God was not surprised - but not that this was according to God's purpose. Just because God knew this would happen doesn't mean he scripted this event. God will work through this, but this was not his desire nor his purpose.

 

[Patriot]

He was plotting this for months. I seriously doubt this was caused by a "mind-altering" substance.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Nietzsche most definitely did not propose that God gave meaning to life. He fell more in the lines of Karl Marx and religion is the opiate of the masses.

I think Daniel meant Nietzsche and so called "intellectuals" like him lead him away from God, so we all agree. It's that college I am too smart for God mentality.

I seriously doubt he was accidentally or even purposefully introduced to some neurochemical that altered his brain's functioning in such a way that it only or mostly made him irrationally angry so much that it forced him to do what he did. Usually medication (such as SSRIs) have many side effects because serotonin serves many functions. SSRI is short for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. That means that serotonin stays in the gap between dendrites (neurons) longer and changes the effect the serotonin has on the brain. That's why psychoactive drugs have 50 billion side effects. For example, I take vyvanse. Vyvanse helps me focus, but it also kills my appetite, dries my throat out, and gives me insomnia (I don't know what neurotransmitter it affects though).

TL;DR - No.

Interesting. I don't hold his actions were actually caused by chemicals but I was curious enough to want to know just what he was doing and if such a thing is possible. Though pretty much nothing has been said about his condition so maybe side effects could have occurred? He was reported to have a "drugged" out look in court. More likely though he is just stupefied by his own actions.

Sounds like the actual subject matter he was researching could have encouraged his actions too. I mean giving a presentation on the "Biological Basis of Psychiatric and Neurological Disorders" is just too convenient.

 

[Corpfox]

Sounds like you want to hug his soul cause he was a Christian.

The police arrested an unresisting Holmes behind the Century 16 cinema, next to his car. The responding officers recovered several guns from inside the car and the theater.

He knew what he was doing. Like Patriot says, he planned it.

Though, his 'spray-n-pray' was reckless.

 

[Kyrel Ruth]

Just read this: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4443124/Batman-killers-obsession-with-Sun-Page-3-girl-Keeley-Hazell.html "It has also emerged that Holmes that he followed the “teachings” of Norwegian mass killer Anders Breivik as he planned his murder spree."

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Sounds like you want to hug his soul cause he was a Christian.

Well yes I do care about the guy but my interest or at least posting was prompted by his unusual background. Most of the reasons massacres occur don't seem to fit...

He hasn't made any statement belonging to a religious/ideological background.

No reported history of authority conflicts (crime etc.).

It wasn't a spontaneous outburst of rage due to purchasing the weapons over the proceeding 2 months.

Regardless I expect all the information is not out yet so something will show.

He knew what he was doing. Like Patriot says, he planned it.

Though, his 'spray-n-pray' was reckless.

It's odd though they go on how smart he supposedly was then he botches the massacre by not even getting out of the parking lot. Then he has the intelligence to build bombs in his apartment but not conceal them properly yet he cleaned his computer of what he did on it (according to police). Whatever, I've never believed the label of "intelligent" the media gives to some criminals. The only intelligent ones are those whose crimes never come to light. Of course it's still not really smart because God will catch you.

Still it makes me wonder could he have made another bomb or something, is he just screwy, is he conflicted and wanted to be caught?

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Just read this: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4443124/Batman-killers-obsession-with-Sun-Page-3-girl-Keeley-Hazell.html "It has also emerged that Holmes that he followed the “teachings” of Norwegian mass killer Anders Breivik as he planned his murder spree."

Interesting. Maybe it was just simple social rejection then but without a pattern of previous acts. Maybe his studies could have included looking at Anders Breivik or perhaps his interest in his own mental state prompted his interest in neroscience? Anders Breivik only did his massacre in July 2011 so Breivik's act could have been the catalyst for his own transformation explaining no previous acts.

If it is megalomania that would explain him wanting to get caught and become famous but if you love yourself why do you do the crime in a state where there is a death penalty?

I know, I started with a simple question and now I am pondering other subjects thus is the way of the Gerbil I think too much XD.

 

[Wolfeman]

Just because God knew this would happen doesn't mean he scripted this event. God will work through this, but this was not his desire nor his purpose.

This is where I disagree with you. The Bible is full of stories of bad things happening because God wanted them to. Job and Joseph are both great examples. Joseph even tells his brothers that they meant him evil but God meant it for good.

We are too quick to give satan and evil power and credit for things that happen that we don't understand. The Bible clearly tells us that satan walks about seeking whom he may devour. But we also see in his conversation with God that he is limited to what he can and can't do. We must always remember tho that evil is in this world.

However, when we look at these events (or any "bad" thing that happens) we must realize either God was powerless to stop it or He allowed it to happen. If He allowed it to happen then He is to some degree complicit in what happened. This means either He is also evil or these events server some greater purpose that only He understands.

The lost will always want to know why a Loving God could allow such evil to exist and to do the things they do, why bad things happen to good people. The inconvenient truth for us is that it serves His will and purpose. If we hope to win them to Christ, we must find a way to explain how these events fit His love for us instead of giving satan the credit in such a generic answer as "evil exists".

As a side note, it seems that every time something like this happens, people turn to God for comfort and answers. Less than 3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks and almost the entire nation turned to God for a good long while. However, over 3000 children are aborted in the US each day and it generates no extra anger or prayer. No turning to God happens unless "evil happens" publicly.

 

[Pheonix28]

...The Bible is full of stories of bad things happening because God wanted them to. Job and Joseph are both great examples....

God didn't "want" Job to go through what he went through. God allowed it, and used it for His kingdom.

We are too quick to give satan and evil power and credit for things that happen that we don't understand. ... But we also see in his conversation with God that he is limited to what he can and can't do....

Just because God allows something doesn't mean that He "wants" it to happen or it was "His plan". He can however, use anything, good or bad.
What this does tell us though, is that satan isn't all powerful, and still has to answer to God.

However, when we look at these events (or any "bad" thing that happens) we must realize either God was powerless to stop it or He allowed it to happen. If He allowed it to happen then He is to some degree complicit in what happened. ...

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Because God allows something it means He was involved in it? God allows "free will" it doesn't mean He agrees with, approves of, or is involved in the choices. To be clear, I'm not saying He can't be involved, but He gave us the ability to choose, and not everything that happens is God's will.

This means either He is also evil or these events server some greater purpose that only He understands.

I don't see a biblical basis for this...

The lost will always want to know why a Loving God could allow such evil to exist and to do the things they do, why bad things happen to good people. The inconvenient truth for us is that it serves His will and purpose. If we hope to win them to Christ, we must find a way to explain how these events fit His love for us instead of giving satan the credit in such a generic answer as "evil exists".

I disagree with you. God's will isn't done automatically. When God decided to give us free will, He gave us the opportunity to follow His will, or our own. In the end, His will, will be done. But what happens in between now and then is up to us. He can use our choices to further His kingdom if we allow it, but not everything that happens is because God willed it that way.

As a side note, it seems that every time something like this happens, people turn to God for comfort and answers. Less than 3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks and almost the entire nation turned to God for a good long while. However, over 3000 children are aborted in the US each day and it generates no extra anger or prayer. ...

That is sad, but satan is a master at what he does, and if he can use people's apathy (and he does) then he will.


It is easy for Christians (and others) to use the "God's plan" view for comfort when something bad happens. If you submit to God's will, then He can use what happened for His "plan." However, just because something bad happens, doesn't mean that it's God's will. He CAN use every bad/tragic/terrible event for His "plan" but it isn't automatically His "plan." Does this mean that God never allows/causes stuff to happen? The bible is evident of this happening much in the OT where He was passing judgement, etc. , and there are examples of death/sickness/possession in the NT where it is used to show the power of Christ. Now did God cause this or allow it? I don't know, I don't claim to understand God. What I can say though, is that not everything that happens is God's will.