Article - Where is Obama as Middle East boils?

Bowser

Tribe of Judah StarCraft Series Chapter Leader
This is not a political statement or anything like that. I'm not going to argue about whether the U.S. Presidency is doing the right thing in this regard, or not. I merely want to point out the errancy in William Bennet's thinking in this matter, and perhaps how we can learn from it.

The article can be found here: http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/02/25/bennett.obama.libya.egypt/index.html?hpt=T2

Editor's note: CNN contributor William J. Bennett is the Washington fellow of the Claremont Institute. He was U.S. secretary of education from 1985 to 1988 and was director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy under President George H.W. Bush.
(CNN) -- After witnessing a vacuum of leadership and an apparent fecklessness in dealing with crises abroad during Jimmy Carter's administration, some concluded the presidency was too big for one man.
It took President Reagan's leadership and rhetoric to rid the popular mind of that notion. Today, a stagnating economy and tumult from the Middle East to Africa is making us again question our idea of the job of president.
There is, of course, one person who can restore our faith in the presidency: the president. But as one looks at the major events unfolding abroad right now, it is hard to conclude that he will do that. Or that he can.
In Egypt last month, the U.S. administration sent confusing messages both to the government and the protesters in the streets. One day, we were standing with Hosni Mubarak, the next with the protesters in the street. And then, the next, we were saying positive things about the Muslim Brotherhood. And then we were correcting that.
As commentator Niall Ferguson concluded from our actions and statements there, "Tragically, no one knows where Barack Obama's map of the Middle East is."
Our administration finally found a clear voice on Egypt, and the message from the president was to stand with those who demanded Mubarak's ouster, that they were a "moral force that bent the arc of history toward justice." He compared them to the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi.
Nobody knows whether the arc of history will bend toward justice there, and right now we should have great concern, especially as the Muslim Brotherhood is flexing its muscles and windpipes.
In Egypt, as with other places boiling with protest and possible internal regime replacement, the outcomes are just not certain: Things very well may get better, that arc may bend, but it is anything but guaranteed.
As historian Benny Morris put it recently, "When the dust settles, which it will, in a month or two or three's time, one will see that Western -- and Israeli -- interests in the Middle East will have been substantially undermined and anti-Western -- and anti-Israeli -- interests substantially bolstered.
"Similarly, one will see that the regimes which are, by nature and tradition very brutal, such as Iran's, Syria's and possibly Libya's, will weather the storm, whereas those which are softer, more inclined to measures of liberalization, partly because of attentiveness to messages from Washington, will either have fallen or will have given ground, and a large measure of power, to anti-Western, often Islamist, elements within each country."
But Morris and those who think Libya will continue on with Moammar Gadhafi as its leader will remain correct only if the United States continues in its muddled message. It has taken the president several days to say something about the brutality in Libya, and now, having spoken, his words are left wanting.
He was more forceful (when he was forceful) in his support for the protesters in Egypt, who rose up against an ally of ours, than he has been on behalf of the protesters in Libya, who face far more brutality from a dictator who has never been a friend of ours and has, for years, been an international outlaw and supporter of terrorism.
Don't just take my word for it; listen to the words of a representative protester speaking to Anderson Cooper after President Obama finally did break his silence on Libya:
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: The Libyan public are angry from the statement was given by President Obama today. Everybody was disappointed.
COOPER: You feel he didn't go for enough?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No. ... It's nonsense. I thought that he's going to give even threats or warning for this to stop. I expected more, to be honest. I expected to read between the lines from his speech. I did not see that. I was very disappointed, not me alone. Everybody was disappointed. We want America to support us.
If this sounds at all familiar, it is because it recalls our administration's pathetic response to the brutality (and hopes on the street) in Iran in 2009, where democratic aspirants there literally asked, "Where's Obama?"
And while we simply cannot know what will come of Egypt, we do know whatever could come next in Libya -- or, for that matter, Iran -- could not be worse. Yet we do not clearly stand with the reformers.
Our foreign policy is lost at sea because it is without direction. Or, perhaps even worse: because there is no map.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of William Bennett.

First, I want to mention that right from the start the man is particularly biased in favor of Republicans. Anyone who compares a Democrat to Jimmy Carter and speaks of indecisiveness, and then in the next sentence talks about how competent Ronald Reagan is providing a skewed example. Even for Democrats, President Carter was viewed as kind of a dud, and many will admit that President Reagan was an exceptional leader. I mention this because Bennet is clearly trying to boost the Republican image (or rather, that which is reasonably and normally associated with the Republican party), and isn't really talking about Middle Eastern affairs at all; it is merely the vehicle driving his point that he feels President Obama is not an effective, timely leader.

Second, he's simplifying the point of standing behind Egypt one moment, and then calling for Mubarak to step down the next. Any informed person will admit that U.S. aid to Egypt, billions of dollars, has been wasted, largely because of the Egyptian government's inefficiencies and corruption. Is it any wonder that Mubarak is one of the richest men in the world? In the past, the United States has clearly and vocally supported Egypt, and its government, because of Egypt's role in the region and its general stability. The United States has changed its tone simply because it, as always, supports democracy. A president is no president at all, when it comes to Mubarak's rule.

Third, Bennet makes incorrect assertions about United State's response to both Egypt and Libya. His statement here: "As historian Benny Morris put it recently, "When the dust settles, which it will, in a month or two or three's time, one will see that Western -- and Israeli -- interests in the Middle East will have been substantially undermined and anti-Western -- and anti-Israeli -- interests substantially bolstered" is almost amusing, to that end.

Fourth, the claim that President Obama has 'lost his map' (paraphrasing) is an overstatement, and again simplifying the matter. Of the roughly 21 countries in the Middle East, 7 (possibly many more) are facing dramatic changes, nearly all of which affect the United States, its people, or its allies in some form. When Bennet says, "Our foreign policy is lost at sea because it is without direction. Or, perhaps even worse: because there is no map," he fails to understand that the Middle East is undergoing tremendous change and is doing so in a very quick manner of time. It's not that there's no map; it's that it's constantly changing and it's no wonder we have trouble keeping up.

Lastly, Bennet quotes a Libyan woman who says, "the Libyan public are angry from the statement was given by President Obama today. Everybody was disappointed."

My points:
  • Don't quote one individual. Quote many.
  • Don't quote people who were already interviewed by someone else. Do your own work, or, as an analyst, at the very least make your research/findings somewhat comprehensive.
  • Don't do what a person wants immediately. I'm not sure what the author's proposed or anticipated response is/was, but he seems to imply we should have acted on this (one) person's wishes. I'm not saying we shouldn't come to the aid of people, but rather we should do so methodically while weighing the consequences, preparing, and etc. Many people criticize various Presidents and leaders for intervening too much in foreign matters, as well. While I'm not sure of the author's stance in this regard, I feel that he's ignoring that concern and rather making a point in favor of a political party.
  • When talking about something, make sure you have a background in it. Holding a Secretary of Education title for 3 years and being a Director of National Drug Policy doesn't mean you know foreign affairs, or policy regarding it. In fact, it almost sounds quite the opposite, since both are domestic issues.

As Christians who are striving to learn, grasping to understand the world and the things going around us, and as leaders, what can we learn from this?

  • Don't jump on the bandwagon. Make your own decisions. If you're a Democrat, don't always go to Democrats to learn from and be your role model, and the same for any political party or even religious group. If your beliefs are founded well enough, you can learn from those you wouldn't otherwise normally or comfortably learn from.
  • Don't assume you know better. As humans, an inherently erred race, we're quite often wrong. Don't let your pride get the best of you, and don't immediately rebut others (although one can still - and should practice - doubt). Many people try to mimic Jesus' assertiveness and confidence, but we blindly do so without fully understanding what we're talking about. Don't be that guy.
  • Subscribe to what's true, not to what others tell you is true.
  • When you find yourself in a position where many of those around you agree with your assertions, play 'devil's advocate'. Jesus didn't have to learn, but we do on a daily basis, and it's quite difficult to learn when everyone is just as wrong as you are (assuming you're 'wrong', of course. And if you're right, well, then, you've already learned).

I mention all of this because in this digital age our opinions on matters can be spread quite far, and potentially can have an impact on far more people. Some of us (notably those on the battle.net forums, among others) mistake an opinion for fact, and then things get really skewed.

My second point is that many of us subscribe to a certain group, but not a belief, and certainly not our own beliefs. Let me clarify by providing an example, and sharing a brief personal philosophy: I am a Christian. I am not Baptist, although I go to a Baptist church ; I am not Republican, even though I am registered Republican. I am who I am, and we are who we are, because of the decisions we make, the guidance and mentorship of those near to us, and the experiences we've had, but rather not because of some worldly agenda we choose to be a part of (be that a religion or religious sect, political, cultural, or national, among others).
 
  • When talking about something, make sure you have a background in it. Holding a Secretary of Education title for 3 years and being a Director of National Drug Policy doesn't mean you know foreign affairs, or policy regarding it. In fact, it almost sounds quite the opposite, since both are domestic issues.
No offense, but aren't you undermining your own argument?

People are allowed to have their own opinions. Even more importantly, they are allowed to voice those opinions in public (At least here in the US). There is no requirement for a doctorate in a field or some sort of work experience. The minute one of those becomes a requirement I will cry foul.

That being said, you have the ability to take that opinion and agree with, disagree with, or ignore it. There are no requirements on you to have a degree or experience to take any of those stances.

Opinions hold more weight from people who have had experience in fields, but that is not a requirement for an opinion to be expressed.
 
No offense, but aren't you undermining your own argument?

People are allowed to have their own opinions. Even more importantly, they are allowed to voice those opinions in public (At least here in the US). There is no requirement for a doctorate in a field or some sort of work experience. The minute one of those becomes a requirement I will cry foul.

That being said, you have the ability to take that opinion and agree with, disagree with, or ignore it. There are no requirements on you to have a degree or experience to take any of those stances.

Opinions hold more weight from people who have had experience in fields, but that is not a requirement for an opinion to be expressed.

I don't what what you mean when you say I'm undermining the argument.

I also disagree with the speaking one's own opinion argument; while I greatly value people's opinions we have to understand that that's an American right, and not a Christian concept. And, quite honestly, it's a right we abuse on a day to day basis. We shouldn't speak, or "opine", to mislead people, and we certainly shouldn't do so out of ignorance, and we certainly shouldn't do so merely to drive our point (if you notice, as I stated, he's not really talking about Libya at all, but rather that President Obama was slow in addressing it, and that we haven't done enough).

As an example, while I don't think pastors' speech should be regulated, I would argue that pastors who are not fluent in the Bible's teachings and history do not need to be leading congregations or speaking out, presumably authoritatively, on topics outside of their knowledge. That's really my only point here.
 
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I don't what what you mean when you say I'm undermining the argument.
Basically, you say that one should have a background in what they are offering their opinion on. The question is, do you have a background in foreign affairs, politics in general, or in critiquing opinion articles? Why should I accept your opinion on this article if you say one needs a background in that field before they can present their position?

I also disagree with the speaking one's own opinion argument; while I greatly value people's opinions we have to understand that that's an American right, and not a Christian concept. And, quite honestly, it's a right we abuse on a day to day basis. We shouldn't speak, or "opine", to mislead people, and we certainly shouldn't do so out of ignorance, and we certainly shouldn't do so merely to drive our point (if you notice, as I stated, he's not really talking about Libya at all, but rather that President Obama was slow in addressing it, and that we haven't done enough).
So you expect this person to be held to Christian standards? I agree that Christians should not be attempting to mislead or speaking from ignorance, but we should not hold the world (which is still in bondage to sin) to Christian standards.

As an example, while I don't think pastors' speech should be regulated, I would argue that pastors who are not fluent in the Bible's teachings and history do not need to be leading congregations or speaking out, presumably authoritatively, on topics outside of their knowledge. That's really my only point here.
Ah, but is that the case? What of stories from the Bible where God spoke through the unlikeliest of people? One does not need knowledge in an area where the Holy Spirit is directing you to speak on if the Holy Spirit is doing the speaking. We as the listeners need to be discerning and search the Scriptures continually to ensure that what we are hearing is truth (Bereans). A pastor is not infallible and will inevitably make mistakes. We should lovingly bring up the subject with them in a manner pleasing to God.
 
Numbers 22:21-35 God doesn't even have to speak through people to get His message across.
 
My personal opinion on what has been going on in the Middle East is that it is mostly good. I also feel the US should stay out of it, for now.

1) Mubarek (and equivalent in other countries) are bad news, and I have been ashamed the US sends them aid just because they play into our hands at the cost of their own people.
2) I'm glad we've stayed out of it thus far; we're talking about sovereign countries. We shouldn't be helping the dictators, at least, and we can help the protesters rebuild after they take their country. This seems to be a more sensible approach than, I dunno, infading their country and trying to do it all ourselves.

I'd very much love to see the folks in these countries come out with something resembling the freedom we enjoy here.
 
Basically, you say that one should have a background in what they are offering their opinion on. The question is, do you have a background in foreign affairs, politics in general, or in critiquing opinion articles? Why should I accept your opinion on this article if you say one needs a background in that field before they can present their position?
I'm not stating an opinion. I'm saying that he has a poor argument, and I listed reasons why. I also think I have a much better understanding of what's going on than the author does - I would be certain of it, except he's not very clear or I can't base that merely off a relatively short article.

So you expect this person to be held to Christian standards? I agree that Christians should not be attempting to mislead or speaking from ignorance, but we should not hold the world (which is still in bondage to sin) to Christian standards.
You have an excellent point here. While I don't think anyone should speak to mislead, perhaps I think so just because of my upbringing.

Ah, but is that the case? What of stories from the Bible where God spoke through the unlikeliest of people? One does not need knowledge in an area where the Holy Spirit is directing you to speak on if the Holy Spirit is doing the speaking. We as the listeners need to be discerning and search the Scriptures continually to ensure that what we are hearing is truth (Bereans). A pastor is not infallible and will inevitably make mistakes. We should lovingly bring up the subject with them in a manner pleasing to God.

You're changing the point here. I'm not talking about Holy Spirit-inspired speech. Just like a pastor is held scripturally to certain standards, I would also assume that many public speakers would be held by some of the same standards (generically speaking), and of course within reason; but using your social, economic, or other status to boost your personal, worldly views is irresponsible, and potentially misinforming.

Thanks for the comments. I think this will be my last reply here :)
 
I'm not stating an opinion. I'm saying that he has a poor argument, and I listed reasons why.
And I could say he has a good argument (although I don't care enough to research his reasoning). If I said that and even provided reasoning, it would still be my opinion. As it is still your opinion, regardless of your opinion on the subject. :D

I also think I have a much better understanding of what's going on than the author does - I would be certain of it, except he's not very clear or I can't base that merely off a relatively short article.
Also your opinion. Does your resume qualify as more valid than his in discussing the topic?

I'm not meaning to pile on you here. I'm just trying to point out that you seem to feel your "opinion" is more valid than his "opinion". In the end, they are just opinions. . .

That's my opinion.
 
Even for Democrats, President Carter was viewed as kind of a dud
Another differing opinion here, Carter was a brilliant, principled, honest man who was a very good statesman (Camp David accords anyone?). He was thrown to the sharks in a very difficult and unstable time in the mideast. One leader there hated him so much, he would do anything to publicly humiliate President Carter. Notice the hostages were release a few days after Reagan was sworn in. Look carefully at the presidency before making such a broad sweeping statement that President Carter was a "dud". This is what many expert opinions lack, a sense of looking at the whole.
Just my humble opinion thank you.
 
Since I'm going to be losing some of my freedom of speech at the month when I leave for basic training I'm going to speak my mind on this now.

To answer the title question, even if it's not the point, I would have to say:

Obama is probably flying around the world dragging half his administration with him at massive taxpayer expense furiously seeking out more people to apologize and or bow to like some kind of disgusting sycophant.

For my part I feel that our glorious leader could hardly be doing a worse job of handling things in the Middle East / North Africa. It's bad enough that he threw our long time ally Mubarak under the bus, but to turn around and face the situation in Libya with little but silence is just appalling. Here we are with two leaders and he undermines the one who was not nearly as bad and was actually friendly to us, while ignoring the true tyrant as he murders his own people.

I see nothing here but cowardice and the worst kind of inconsistency on the part of the current administration. They've accomplished absolutely nothing but messing with our own interests and making us look like a bunch of policy waffling buffoons.

We should simply stop trying to promote "democracy" in those countries in the first place. Our inconsistency therein is bad enough, but even if we do manage to promote democracy it only hurts us anyway. Just look at what happened in Iran, what will probably happen in Iraq when they lose our stabilizing influence. Those people want radicalized insane governments. Better that they have a tyrant to keep them under control, and who in turn can be at least partially controlled by us. I don't care how politically incorrect it is to say it, some people are not fit for participation in a democratic society, and that include the majority of Muslims in the Middle East / Africa.

The government's job is to ensure that America and her interests are protected, not that every rabble out there gets to enjoy the same benefits as our citizens. Obama and his people should take a position that supports our interests and stick to it, but instead it's like he wants that whole area to fall into the control of people who hate us.

The man is an incompetent fool who has no business being a small town mayor, much less being the Commander in Chief. That he will be essentially my boss (against whom I will not be allowed to speak "contemptuous words") for at least, and hopefully only, the next two years disgusts me beyond words.

As to the matter of Jimmy Carter, I won't speak on his efficacy in office, since at the time he seemed like a pretty decent upright guy and I wasn't alive to judge it. That said, there's no getting around that fact that in recent years he has turned into an ignorant, irrelevant, blindly optimistic and obnoxious loudmouth who spews out his asinine opinions every time people don't actually ask for them. That and it seems like the once Christian minister as basically turned into a complete joke when it comes to his views on Christianity, which are completely unorthodox and pandering to the hard left to the point of heresy.
 
Another differing opinion here, Carter was a brilliant, principled, honest man who was a very good statesman (Camp David accords anyone?). He was thrown to the sharks in a very difficult and unstable time in the mideast. One leader there hated him so much, he would do anything to publicly humiliate President Carter. Notice the hostages were release a few days after Reagan was sworn in. Look carefully at the presidency before making such a broad sweeping statement that President Carter was a "dud". This is what many expert opinions lack, a sense of looking at the whole.
Just my humble opinion thank you.

Note that I didn't say it was my opinion; and yes, I have read extensively on President Carter during the Iranian hostage crises. I appreciate your input.
 
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It's bad enough that he threw our long time ally Mubarak under the bus, but to turn around and face the situation in Libya with little but silence is just appalling.

And exactly whose ally was Mubarak? Not mine. Yes, he was "friendly" to US and Israel, but at what cost? Do you realize that Mubarak and Ghidaffi are essentially the same guy in different countries? I think these opinions are a bit at odds with each other.
 
Mubarak was more your ally than the new populist regime is liable to be. A secular dictator, even if he is oppressive is far and away preferable to radical Islamist "democracy" that is the most likely alternative. Unless you're too narrow minded to realize that not all dictators are the same or equally bad it's hardly fair to put Mubarak and Gaddafi in the same category. Did Mubarak order air strikes on protesters? Did he hire mercenaries to kill his people when the military was unwilling? Where Gaddafi's belligerence is held in check only by his fear of the reprisal from his better, Mubarak accepted and helped maintain a lasting peace with Israel. The cost is liable to be far higher for letting the extreme Muslim rabble have its say at the polls and thereby destabilize the entire region.

As to my opinions, they are not the least contradictory. It is my only position that the US should always promote its own interests instead of social shifts that are more likely to harm us. Where we had everything to lose and precious little to gain off the revolution in Egypt we could only benefit from a revolution in Libya. In spite of that, our moronic leadership supported the former and has barely spoken a peep about the latter. If they're unwilling to put the interests of the American people ahead of those of others, then they could at least be consistent in supporting Libya's revolution, but even that is too much to ask, hence why I consider them nothing but a bunch of worthless cowards.
 
Shade - you say that you want us out of the middle east and that the people there should be left to decide their own destiny, yet you accuse Obama of throwing Mubarek under the bus and doing nothing about it all while the Egyptian people revolt for more freedom. I believe your thoughts in relation to what our country stands for are incongruent here.

The bottom line is that the leader of the "Land of the Free" cannot support a dictator - period; it is completely against what the U.S. stands for and is completely against the principles on which the U.S. was founded.

Mubarek's stance with the U.S. and the definition of his rule aside, the Egyptian people threw him out, not us. It really isn't our place to say anything, and you certainly cannot blame Obama for his ousting.

I agree with you that some people may or may not be "fit" (I wish I could think of a kinder word to use) for democracy. Those that are used to a millennia of authoritarian government very likely aren't the best candidates for starting democratic governments. I italicized and bolded "very likely" because these people may in fact be ready for democracy. I believe the most important piece though is that they achieve it themselves.

shadetaker said:
A secular dictator, even if he is oppressive is far and away preferable to radical Islamist "democracy" that is the most likely alternative.

You are making massive amounts of assumptions. Granted no one knows the futures of Tunisia, Egypt or [hopefully] Libya, they could take the road that the Sudan did when all of this is all said and done.

Finally, Muslim is NOT a synonym for evil, or rebel, or extremist, or any other malevolent adjective. I just want to make that absolutely clear. Like I said before, you're making quite a few assumptions. These assumptions are tantamount to the rest of the world assuming that Christians in the U.S. are similar to the "Christians" at Westboro Baptist Church. ...Thank God that's not true.

Edit: an interesting interview from March 1, is from The Daily Show (I realize how unpopular his show might be around here). Jon Stewart interviews Zeid Ra'ad, an ambassador from Jordan. It is a very eye opening and thorough interview. Of course, because it's a comedy-news show (they cover real stories, mind you) they do utilize choice language.
 
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Shade - you say that you want us out of the middle east and that the people there should be left to decide their own destiny, yet you accuse Obama of throwing Mubarek under the bus and doing nothing about it all while the Egyptian people revolt for more freedom. I believe your thoughts in relation to what our country stands for are incongruent here.

The bottom line is that the leader of the "Land of the Free" cannot support a dictator - period; it is completely against what the U.S. stands for and is completely against the principles on which the U.S. was founded.

Mubarek's stance with the U.S. and the definition of his rule aside, the Egyptian people threw him out, not us. It really isn't our place to say anything, and you certainly cannot blame Obama for his ousting.

I agree with you that some people may or may not be "fit" (I wish I could think of a kinder word to use) for democracy. Those that are used to a millennia of authoritarian government very likely aren't the best candidates for starting democratic governments. I italicized and bolded "very likely" because these people may in fact be ready for democracy. I believe the most important piece though is that they achieve it themselves.



You are making massive amounts of assumptions. Granted no one knows the futures of Tunisia, Egypt or [hopefully] Libya, they could take the road that the Sudan did when all of this is all said and done.

Finally, Muslim is NOT a synonym for evil, or rebel, or extremist, or any other malevolent adjective. I just want to make that absolutely clear. Like I said before, you're making quite a few assumptions. These assumptions are tantamount to the rest of the world assuming that Christians in the U.S. are similar to the "Christians" at Westboro Baptist Church. ...Thank God that's not true.

Edit: an interesting interview from March 1, is from The Daily Show (I realize how unpopular his show might be around here). Jon Stewart interviews Zeid Ra'ad, an ambassador from Jordan. It is a very eye opening and thorough interview. Of course, because it's a comedy-news show (they cover real stories, mind you) they do utilize choice language.


Did I really say that I think we should get out? Maybe not in this thread I might have said something to that effect but I will clarify. The only reason I have any interest in leaving the Middle East is because of the money we have to spend to be there and the lives we lose in being there. Pretty sure I never actually said that we should let them decide their own fates; that would be better avoided, since if they could ever manage to stop fighting with each other they would surely turn their eyes to the Western world. Honestly if we could both pacify and ensure that we got what we wanted from them (oil and such) without having to spend a great deal of money or live then that would be great. As it stands I do not believe that we in anyway withdraw from our current positions until we're happy with the results we've achieved. If I have said differently in the past than my opinions have changed.

To say that we cannot support a dictator is honestly just silly, we can and we have. It might not be the case that we can say we openly approve of them, but if we really rejected all tyrannic governments then half the world would be a closed door to us. It's not our job to necessarily judge the quality of other governments, though I feel our position gives us the authority to do so. Regime change should be reserved for when the government-in-question's offenses are truly egregious or when we stand to benefit in a big way. On that note, I don't think there actually is any basis in our founding principles for actually spreading democracy to other parts of the world. Nothing in our laws actually promotes overthrowing foreign tyrants as far as I know, and I think we all know what some of the founding fathers thought of "foreign entanglements." The USA is not a charity for the promotion of democracy; our dealing with other countries should be limited to seeking a benefit for us.

I do realize that it's not Obama's fault that the revolution happened. What I'm angry about here is not his failure to send it the marines but rather his denunciation of a regime that had proven itself over decades to be our ally. Whether it was oppressive or not (Mubarak was, to my knowledge, no Chavez, Gaddafi, Mugabe, Pol Pot or the like) is not relevant. What is relevant is that Obama, in his speech at least, yanked the rug out from under somebody who had stood by us for decades and whom we in turn had supported. This is bad enough, but you would think that if Obama was really some great proponent of democracy he could at least cast some of the same choice words the threw at Mubarak at Gaddafi. Why does he not? Clearly Libya had more justification for wanted to revolt and impose democracy than Egypt did, so where's the support for rebels there? It doesn't make sense, it's woefully inconsistent, and it smacks of a cowardly noncommittal attitude on Obama's part since he apparently will only pipe up when the outcome seems clear.

Am I really making so many assumptions about radical Islamist regimes being the democratic government of choice in those areas? I mean seriously, look at what happened in Iran. Look how the people in Palestine and Lebanon* vote open terror groups into their governments. Look at how Turkey has started to shift from secular government to Islamic and how their attitude toward the West and Israel has taking a turn toward the icy. See how even now Iraq is slipping our of our grasp as people are beginning to vote into office the very kinds of people we seek to remove from power. Those countries that are not veering heavily toward the extremes are the minority. My belief that recently completed revolutions will likely soon install radical governments hostile to us is not based on mere assumptions, it's based solely on the pattern that has already been established by those countries neighbors. Though I will say that considering how rotten and hostile Gaddafi is, any new situation in Libya is liable to be better for us even if they follow said pattern.

I'm not going to say that every Muslim out there is a ticking time bomb, rotten to the core and just looking for the chance to stab us in the back, but it should pointed out that a disturbing number of them are just that. There are indeed a great many perfectly agreeable Muslims out there with whom we can coexist peacefully and who I would be pleased to have as neighbors. Unfortunately, Islam itself is almost certainly the single institution most committed and to and most effective at raising people to be violent fanatics ready and willing to murder their neighbors. It is most certainly not, as some would claim, a "religion of peace." Islam was initially spread at sword point, and the teachings that first encouraged that have not changed. If there is a reason that the middle east has not recently sought to spread their venomous faith by force its because they are to weak to stand up to their potential victims, and they are too weak because they don't get along among themselves. If ever the Middle East manages to come together under one banner, I have no doubt that they will set out to subjugate every nation they can. That is assuming that their initial target, which would undoubtedly be Israel, doesn't simply hand them all their butts like the last time. Any Muslim who does not ascribe to this kind of violence does so because they are marginal believers and/or they selectively ignore that part of their faith. Make no mistake, just because many Muslims aren't violent about it doesn't mean that Islam itself is a thoroughly corrupt, violent and irredeemable institution.

Sorry for the wall of text, the situation under discussion and the recent murder of some airmen in Germany by a crazy Muslim, combined with reading too much commentary on both, have gotten me kind of steamed and since this is the only forum I actually post in, all my thoughts get dumped here. The typing did feel good though, I haven't typed this much since I graduated back in May of last year.

On a final foreign policy note I would like to present this article for consideration, since it pretty well sums up a lot of what makes me angry at our current administration as regard that matter.

Edit: Correction I meant to give Lebanon as a example in paragraph 4, originally Libya was mentioned instead.
 
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Am I really making so many assumptions about radical Islamist regimes being the democratic government of choice in those areas? I mean seriously, look at what happened in Iran. Look how the people in Palestine and Libya vote open terror groups into their governments. Look at how Turkey has started to shift from secular government to Islamic and how their attitude toward the West and Israel has taking a turn toward the icy. See how even now Iraq is slipping our of our grasp as people are beginning to vote into office the very kinds of people we seek to remove from power. Those countries that are not veering heavily toward the extremes are the minority. My belief that recently completed revolutions will likely soon install radical governments hostile to us is not based on mere assumptions, it's based solely on the pattern that has already been established by those countries neighbors. Though I will say that considering how rotten and hostile Gaddafi is, any new situation in Libya is liable to be better for us even if they follow said pattern.

I'm not going to say that every Muslim out there is a ticking time bomb, rotten to the core and just looking for the chance to stab us in the back, but it should pointed out that a disturbing number of them are just that. There are indeed a great many perfectly agreeable Muslims out there with whom we can coexist peacefully and who I would be pleased to have as neighbors. Unfortunately, Islam itself is almost certainly the single institution most committed and to and most effective at raising people to be violent fanatics ready and willing to murder their neighbors. It is most certainly not, as some would claim, a "religion of peace." Islam was initially spread at sword point, and the teachings that first encouraged that have not changed. If there is a reason that the middle east has not recently sought to spread their venomous faith by force its because they are to weak to stand up to their potential victims, and they are too weak because they don't get along among themselves. If ever the Middle East manages to come together under one banner, I have no doubt that they will set out to subjugate every nation they can. That is assuming that their initial target, which would undoubtedly be Israel, doesn't simply hand them all their butts like the last time. Any Muslim who does not ascribe to this kind of violence does so because they are marginal believers and/or they selectively ignore that part of their faith. Make no mistake, just because many Muslims aren't violent about it doesn't mean that Islam itself is a thoroughly corrupt, violent and irredeemable institution.

Sorry for the wall of text, the situation under discussion and the recent murder of some airmen in Germany by a crazy Muslim, combined with reading too much commentary on both, have gotten me kind of steamed and since this is the only forum I actually post in, all my thoughts get dumped here. The typing did feel good though, I haven't typed this much since I graduated back in May of last year.

On a final foreign policy note I would like to present this article for consideration, since it pretty well sums up a lot of what makes me angry at our current administration as regard that matter.

Shade - thanks for your posts, I really appreciate your opinion here.

If there's someone here who understands the topic better than possibly many of the posters here, then I would say that might be me. I would say my background backs that up (even though Patriot doubts me, which is fine :) ). I want to make just two counter-points to Shade's arguments - Shade, you are still making many assumptions in the Middle East, even though you're starting to understand the area relatively well compared to many people I've spoken with. The Iraq example you gave is not the best in regards to radicalism, for many reasons. I'm not going to get into that here, because that not the purpose of this thread. My second counter-point is to your statement that, paraphrasing, the only reason other Muslims are not radicals are because they're marginal believers - typically, the radical Muslims are those who do not attend worship in the Mosques, but instead hang with their band of fellow insurgents or would-be terrorists, and fellowship with them. All of their learning comes from someone in their local group, who may or may not understand the Qur'an very well. Very, very few of these uneducated people can even read the Qu'ran, as they're not familiar with the language. The truly obedient, devout believers attend the mosque, pray with their family, and wish no harm on anyone. If anything, they're pacifists, far more so than you or I, at least.
 
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