What happens if I do this? Freeze myself, eve online style

[silverleaf]

http://www.alcor.org

I'm thinking about doing this upon my 'death'. However I would like to know what happens on the spiritual side of things. If I do get taken out of coma (I won't say revived as I technically never died yet) 500 years later, all is good and well. However will my soul be CONSCIOUS? I would not like to be stuck in a half meter diameter cell for 500 years till they can unfreeze me! It just ain't worth the risk. I can't sit still for 2 hours with nothing to do, much less become a real life Lich King...

 

[Lazarus]

If I were you I would worry more about my own mental state if I was considering such a thing than about what would happen to my soul.

 

[shadetaker]

Nevermind the cost or the fact that the world likely won't last that long anyway; US law prohibits pre-mortem cryonic preservation. That means that you really will be dead before they'd be allowed to freeze you. Honestly, if you believe you're going to heaven after you die, why would you want to artificially prolong your mortal life in the first place?

 

[Elader Arkon]

I'm not sure about cryogenics in the EVE universe, generally they use flash cloning to capture the exact brain state seconds before death and transfer the data straight into a clone.

That said, if something like this would ever work, the effect would be the same as those who have technically died and made a miraculous comeback.

 

[silverleaf]

Yep thats how it works elader. They are gona preserve my brain and upload it into a new body. I want to go to heaven, but not after just 50 or so years here. I'd like to stay down here another 500 or so years. Born too early to witness the marvels of tomorrow in a utopian society. Not be immortal, just live A LOT longer.

Also, I'm not in US, but worldwide they can't do anything till 'clinically dead' however brain should still be intact and therefore theoratically can be unfrozen.

On to evading death, unnatural etc etc, I view this somewhat similar to defibrillation and conventional resuscitation. Therefore *THEORETICALLY* I should experience a near death encounter. Only this one will last hundreds of years, and not just a few seconds. And that is what I'm worried about.

As for costs, it isn't that bad, not too sure about Alcor, but another US based one, Cryonics Institute, charges 28 grand and a membership fee of $1250. Yes it is quite a lot of money, but comparable to other medical procedures. And I'd rather spend 30 grand to live longer than to get a new car or something. Life is worth more than 30 grand. If I'm too poor to afford that AND some cash in federal bonds/bank/bluechip investments (all 3 in case one crashes) to prevent waking up poor, then I'd rather die 'normally'.

On to the last issue of if this is insane or not, well back in the day people just died. Modern medical practice was unthinkable and they certainly didn't have CPR and a defibrillator. Think of this as a defibrillator, just that instead of doing it right away, they will only resuscitate me 200-500 years later, where I plan to live another 200-500 years and die peacefully.

Do I think this will work? No. I am willing to give it a shot though, after all I can't take anything with me to heaven
You enter this world by yourself, you leave by yourself. I find it real horrible that most people work all their lives for a house, some form of financial stability, qualifications. And then they die, just a few years after that. 40 years of effort. 10-40 years of rewards. If they lived to 180 instead of 80, they could get 140 years of stability. Sure, they have to work longer, but by now, things should have settled down, have a house, qualifications, financial security.

TL;DR What happens to people in a coma? Do they experience a near death encounter? I heard it can be distressing, not going to risk being confined to my 1m by 1m cell for 500 years, or worse, indefinitely.

 

[Stc95]

Born too early to witness the marvels of tomorrow in a utopian society.

Are you saying the world we live in is a utopia? Or that you believe that in a couple hundred years the earth will be perfect? I find that hard to believe that humans can do anything perfect, and I know personally I do not want to stick around here any longer than God calls me to be. I'm here because He wants me here, as soon as my service is done I ain't sticking around for anything. And even if I'm meant to be here for 40 years, then so be it, because I am going to change history and continue to live on forever, without cyrogenics.

John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last."

Also, I'm not in US, but worldwide they can't do anything till 'clinically dead' however brain should still be intact and therefore theoratically can be unfrozen.

But wouldn't your brain still be the slow functioning brain of an 80 year old? Your brain deteriorates, it is decaying. Lets take it a step further, what if they could take your brain and place it in another body and have everything sync up correctly. Would you really want a 20 year old body with the brain of an 80 year old? Yes you would probably be really wise, but at the same time you would still struggle to comprehend and learn new things. Our bodies decay and are meant to die, because we aren't meant for this world.

Ecclesiastes 3 "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die..."

John 15:16 "They [humans] are not of the world, even as I [Jesus] am not of it."

Think of this as a defibrillator, just that instead of doing it right away, they will only resuscitate me 200-500 years later, where I plan to live another 200-500 years and die peacefully.

Still dovetailing off my last comment, can your brain/body continue working for 200+ years in this day and age? I know folks in the OT lived for hundreds of years, but then again they just came from Creation, there was NOTHING wrong with them. The perfect humans in the perfect atmosphere with no genetic dysfunctions. Furthermore, where is God's plan? I see this as trying to play God, which is what most of society does nowadays. Everyone tries to look better, be stronger, live longer, and that is not what God has planned. Humans are trying to become God and it's not going to work, both in the short run and the long run.

You enter this world by yourself, you leave by yourself.

You enter this world by yourself, I'll give you that, but you leave this world with Jesus, or at least I am.

I find it real horrible that most people work all their lives for a house, some form of financial stability, qualifications. And then they die, just a few years after that. 40 years of effort. 10-40 years of rewards. If they lived to 180 instead of 80, they could get 140 years of stability.

It is tragic that people spend their whole lives on immaterial things instead of things that will last: relationships. But according to what you're saying, everyone who works for those things will get them and enjoy them for the rest of their life. What about those people that work for financial stability, a house, titles, etc. and then the world takes them away? Why do you think that if people lived for 180 years they will be happy for 140 of them? Life isn't a set play. You don't reach 40 years and life is peachy from then on out. Life on this earth is a struggle from day one and it will be to your last day, regardless if that day is 10 years from day one, or 100.

 

[Lazarus]

Let's put it this way:

If you have this company put the Big Freeze on you, God's going to send you to the Hot Place.

Clear?

 

[silverleaf]

Firstly the easy question @ lazarus
Actually lots of christians endorse this, saving lives is not a sin, because you are not dead yet. And ressurecting pple with science EVEN IF they are dead (which they are not but there has been research to do just that), there is nothing concrete to say its a sin. Plus doubt any single sin in this world is enough to send me to that place, we've all done lots of evil stuff and I won't deny I've done my fair share, but I try my best to be decent. Jesus is what saved me, definitely not my lack of sin.

About the issue of playing God, then in this case defibs and most modern medicine would be wrong. I believe we were given the capacity to invent stuff for a reason. And we must use it responsibly. Not using it is irresponsible.

When I said you enter this world by yourself and leave by yourself, I meant you can't take your stuff with you. Might as well hang on a lil longer if you got phat lewt. Don't you hate those long singleplayer RPG games where you amass a lot of stuff, and then game ends, nothing to do?

And yeah I'd be a really wise 20 year old.

As for a utopian society, I don't exactly mean it your way. Look back 500 years, look at the atrocities commited, how much has humanity improved since biblical times?
I meant with all this new technology, the 'normal' of tomorrow would involve a lot of robotics, a land of plenty, 0% poverty, less suffering. Until the robots rebel against their human masters BSG style.

Now back on the issue of brain decay. They are probably going to have rejuvenation techniques by then. As for learning new skills, probably a microchip implant.

Now these are incredulous suggestions, but is it worth taking the risk? The very opposite of what I expect to happen could happen. Due to war, natural disasters and just human greed, poverty may actually go up. Basic ammenities may get so expensive that even if I came back, my 200-500 grand ain't gona last long enuff, and food, education, shelter and employment ISN'T going to be free like in the utopian society I envision.
Lets face it, humans are evil, and I can't say with 100% confidence we wouldn't be having world war 3, causing more misery and wrecking stuff.

In biblical times, going by the fundamentalists and taking the numbers literally (there are scholars who say the ages are symbolic, numbers mean stuff in their time), people live like 1000 years? So if we can reverse that genetic ageing and go back to the way God intended, but plus all this tech, maybe I could live 1500 years. But I would be content with 500.

 

[shadetaker]

I would say that you are being far too optimistic about the future, and even modern times. There are a number of points which bear mention here.

The first thing that needs to be brought up is your assumption that the future will be defined by infinite resources and a lack of poverty, this runs contrary to human nature. Man's generosity does not increase with his productive capacity. For as long as one man desires power and control over another (which will be until the end of the world) money will be used to limit people. There will always be people looking to lift themselves up by limiting the best resources to themselves.

If you want examples you need only look at our world today. It is conceivable that if humanity were truly capable of living unselfishly enough to create a utopia we would already be there. The fact remains that the first world will never stop improving itself elevate the third world to its level. Similarly, on the topic of medical advances, I point out that no matter how far we have come and no matter what we are capable of accomplishing it remains as ungodly expensive as ever.

Do you really imagine that for the comparatively paltry sum you would pay to keep yourself frozen the people of the future would bestow on you not only the treatment to thaw you but also to restore your youth and grant your immortality? If you're lucky you'd be woken up only to find yourself in the same geriatric state in which you first died, with a massive bill for your restoration and an even larger expense to pay if you want youth or life extension. Have fun raising the money in what little time you'll have as a newly revived senior citizen, unlikely to possess any sufficiently valuable skills of the future. I wouldn't bet on being able to maintain any kind of fund while you're frozen either, no one is going to manage money for a popsicle, they'll just keep it for themselves.

The other major thing I'd like to address here is your claim that the world has somehow improved over the course of millenia. The only thing that has truly advanced as far as humanity in general is concerned is technology, and technology does nothing to cure the human condition. Mankind is the same now as it was in biblical times, which is to say completely depraved. I'm really unsure as to what "atrocities" you are referring, but I think we can agree that in many regards they aren't truly as bad many that have been foisted on the world in only the last hundred years.

Surely you're not going to suggest these unnamed atrocities are worse than the holocaust or the ravages of communism. Surely you wouldn't suggest that pagan practices of millenia past are truly that much worse than Islam which seeks to annihilate non-believers and repress women to the point of murdering them for the slightest infraction. Or consider Hinduism which has crippled a nation of a billion with a vicious caste system that impoverishes countless people. Even better think about atheism and the aforementioned horrors of the twentieth century which it spawned directly. Consider that to this day many people worldwide are still eager to kill each other over slight racial differences. Consider that even in the most advanced society corruption and crime still run rampant.

Quite simply, your dreams of the future will never be realized because they would require man's nature to be fundamentally different from what it has always been. The fact that you apparently don't perceive the rottenness of today's world is almost certainly a product of the widely held conceit of people worldwide that somehow we are better than our fore-bearers. In truth the world wallows in decadence, hatred, violence, immorality, greed and all the other products of sins to the same degree to which it did up until now, and it will continue to do so.

TL;DR: Nothing will ever be free, and the world is as bad now as it ever was and will continue to be so.

 

[silverleaf]

well shade you have painted a very bleak picture of the future, but you are right, this could happen as well. Like I said, there are two ends of the spectrum.

1-people finally put aside their differences, poverty rates continue to drop, people finally do the right thing and live a more Godly life. Cults cease to exist, everyone becomes Christian or at least leave us alone. Advances in technology create a world with more than enough resources for all, including a better social system where every citizen is waited on hand and foot by the wonders of automation. Eradicate all diseases and eve online style cloning becomes free for all, way to make clone bodies almost instantly and without much cost, a whole new body for the price of a minor surgery or doctor's visit today. And the UN declares world peace forever.

2-moral values continue to deteriorate, church attendance rates dip instead of grow, all hell breaks loose. World war 3 happens and makes WW2 look like NOTHING, nation fights against nation, people continue to oppress the less fortunate, scientology becomes a major religion.

Most likely it will be a mix between the two.

Lastly who said anything about PAYING for health care? Ain't gona happen as long as I'm on medicare or opt for private. O wait no such health care system in the states. However I assume in the future all nations will embrace the wonders of free health care.

Now on to the issue of money, split it up, put in multiple banks, government bonds and buy bluechip shares. No money to be made, but at least the interest compensates for inflation. Not sure of the details but those folks who are right now in cryogenic sleep still have their assets. Granted its only 30 years and we don't know how long more before someone finds a way to get at it...
Only reason anyone would even consider such a risky procedure is if they are relatively well off.

 

[Durruck]

people finally put aside their differences, poverty rates continue to drop, people finally do the right thing and live a more Godly life. Cults cease to exist, everyone becomes Christian or at least leave us alone.

Nothing in the recorded history of the world indicates this as a remote possibility. Nothing in the Bible (specifically, the Book of Revelation) indicates this is a remote possibility.

 

[Tek7]

Nothing in the recorded history of the world indicates this as a remote possibility. Nothing in the Bible (specifically, the Book of Revelation) indicates this is a remote possibility.

This. A thousand times this.

 

[Elader Arkon]

However I assume in the future all nations will embrace the wonders of free health care.

I assume this is after robots take over world governments? No government provided service has ever been nor ever will be 'free'. In fact it could easily be argued it is inherently more expensive, but that's a different topic for somewhere else.

 

[Abba San]

A big AMEN for Durruck - Tek7 - Elader Arkon. (Those are all that are on this page and this page is the only one I have time to view)

 

[silverleaf]

Nothing in the recorded history of the world indicates this as a remote possibility. Nothing in the Bible (specifically, the Book of Revelation) indicates this is a remote possibility.

Yeah I said that was an extreme example. We would most likely have somewhere between utopia and distopia. Something like now, though I believe slightly better. Maybe things are looking bleak from where you are, and no one knows what's going to happen in a century or two. 200 years ain't that long. Likely not much would have changed. Revelations concerns the distant future, don't believe the world is gona end anytime soon, as none of those biblical descriptions has happened yet. Ohhh boy I don't want to be alive when they do happen. However no one knows when it is going to happen, supposedly 'not even Jesus, only the Father'. Lots of weird, scary stuff will happen, wars, bloodbaths, demonic invasions. And even when these happen, it will be another few centuries before THE end. If people are dying left right and center, don't think they are gona resuscitate me.

A more realistic and imminent technique to resuscitate patients seem to be from adult stem cell research. That's why it's better to preserve the whole body rather than just the head. For those who don't know, ASC is NOT from embryos but rather everyone has stem cells left undeveloped in their body, just that they can only regenerate into specific tissue types. However, while maybe not as effective, it does bypass the legalities and ethical issues of embyro stem cells. Already we have people cured of life threatening 'incurable' stuff in the... less ethical places of the world.

Now the reason I'm asking about this is what happens if I never die? Am I trapped in that container for all eternity? A big earthquake can bury the whole place with me in it, and people tended to just build over stuff rather than dig out everything first. And I don't want to be in some container till the end of time. Also as I'm not dead would it mean I'm still conscious, can dream and it's just equivalent of being asleep? If so, even if they do unfreeze me 200 years later, I'd prolly be a madman.
The risk may not be worth it because I believe in a better place waiting for me.

 

[Durruck]

I know you're over in the southeast Asia/Oceania side of the world, but it's already getting to the point in the western cultures that Christianity is starting to get persecuted - especially here in the US.

A read through John's Revelation will show you that Christians give up comfort in this life to secure their eternal salvation. Christians will be actively hunted in the end days. I don't know if we have 2 minutes or 2 millennia before the Second Coming, but my plan is to spend as much time as possible spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The idea of freezing heads (or whole bodies) doesn't seem to solve any issues; how would you like to come back post-rapture and deal with the Great Tribulation? That would suck.

I see a huge difference between stealing a little extra time in your first life (via defibrillation, etc) and freezing yourself for potential cloning in the future. The thing is, the world is already overcrowded. why make it worse?

People 200 years ago were considered rich for having $50. Now we spend that on a new game. In 200 more years, $10,000 may be enough for a super-slushie at the gas station. How would you like to wake up with no useful tradeskills (so you can't get a job) and no money?

 

[Odale]

Most experts in any single field will say that they know of no evidence that cryonics can work. That's because cryonics is an interdisciplinary field based on three facts from diverse unrelated sciences. Without all these facts, cryonics seems ridiculous.

No, I'm sorry, it still seems ridiculous.

Let me try this:

1 - My mom's old minivan minivan utilized oxygen to operate.
2 - My moms old minivan could think and report on its health.
3 - My mom's old minivan could move.

Oh my gosh! My mom's old minivan was human!!!

Even if this could work (which I am certain it wont... and I'm pretty open minded, maybe more so than most people - but I'm not crazy and unrealistic) the chance that they would not use your brain for other purposes is thin, how would they retrieve your information locked away in your brain (I haven't seen a usb port on my head recently), what are the chances that you would emerge severely mentally handicapped when you are to be "unfrozen?"

I can't imagine you were serious when you posted this Silverleaf, hehe.

 

[silverleaf]

@durruck
true, I get your point. Here Christianity is growing by the day and everything is as fine as can be. Granted I can see faith is pretty strong on this forum. I live in a multicultural place, most of us are *moderate*, confident in our salvation, do what we can, but I don't think many of my peers are willing to devote their entire life into the Gospel just yet. Sure there are some, but not most of us. However things seem to be going pretty well here, definitely not the persecution and dystopia you suggest. Is it that different where you are?

Now, if you are that dedicated to the Faith, wouldn't you like 200 more years to evangelize down here? It's not that I want immortality, but another few dozen years would be nice if I ever make it in life. Plus if the end comes and people are dying left right and center, it is unlikely they are going to unfreeze me. Plus, frozen or not, while I haven't lead a perfect life, I'd assume I'm saved by the grace of Jesus and so would be taken up to heaven, even if God has to break a liquid nitrogen tank to get me.

@Odale,
I get what you are saying, but just think. Your bank can run away with your money anytime. However if they do that, people will stop coming there no? Technically those cryonics companies can do whatever they want with me, and I don't even believe 10% that I can come back. However if they started doing some weird things, you can be sure people will stop using that company's services.

And I don't know how I will be when unfrozen, but a couple centuries is not THAT long, and I expect to have some serious study to do, but so long as my university continues to exist, my degrees will still be recognized.

 

[Odale]

...I get what you are saying, but just think. Your bank can run away with your money anytime. However if they do that, people will stop coming there no? Technically those cryonics companies can do whatever they want with me, and I don't even believe 10% that I can come back. However if they started doing some weird things, you can be sure people will stop using that company's services.

The FDIC won't give you your brain back after the cryogenic bank recklessly spent it. =P

Reality != Futurama, either.

 

[silverleaf]

well, I'm pretty sure I can sue then. Right after they regrow my brain... unless it's all gone... but in death, like everything in life there are risks... and it's a tad early for me to be pondering end of life questions. However if there is a way to double my life expectancy, I'd be a fool to say no.

I'm serious as in considering this, but not committed to it yet. I'm pretty sure the 250+ pple who are in cryogenic stasis (whether whole body or DNA preservation) are pretty serious too. These are competent folks mind you, they don't accept people deemed insane. And don't think they are dumb either, gotta be pretty rich to afford this and a trust fund. Or sell everything you own and put it into bonds and low yield stable banks.

I'm saying the end days will definitely not be within the next year or two because it's supposed to be a gradual process, and I have yet to see widespread famine, destruction and persecution just yet. The process itself will take longer than a year or two. I don't think everyone are just going to wake up tomorrow saying "I hate Christians lets burn em" and come after us.
It could happen any time. but def not today, def not tomorrow. And it will be in the midst of all this chaos, that will be really hard to miss.