Subscription free MMOs vs. WoW

Stc95

Stc95

Tribe of Judah Guild Wars Chapter Leader
Article

With Everquest II to go subscription free like Dungeons & Dragons: Online, and Lord of the Rings Online planning to go free later in the year it raises the question of how free are these "free" games and ultimately the subscription vs. non-subscription debate. At least, that's what the article insinuates. One thing they said tho that kinda perked up my ears was it said "And if you’re really looking for World of Warcraft levels of polish and finesse, expect to wind up paying World of Warcraft-level prices."

Is that statement true? I don't believe so, at least not on a monthly biases.
 
This argument will be null when GW2 launches. Free to play (after a purchase) AND it's a high-quality MMO. xD
 
They did give a shout out to GW and it's sequel. But I didn't want this to dissolve into a WoW vs. GW debate, as they are theoretically two separate genres (MMO vs. CORPG).

But I'm wondering, as this article says, do you have to play a monthly subscription to get the same "quality" of MMO (or similar genre) as WoW? Or the same kind of upkeep as WoW with a monthly subscription.
 
Stc95 said:
But I'm wondering, as this article says, do you have to play a monthly subscription to get the same "quality" of MMO (or similar genre) as WoW? Or the same kind of upkeep as WoW with a monthly subscription.
Click to expand...
Yes.

That may change in the years to come, but right now, there's a long list of reasons why WoW is the most popular MMO in the world. I have my own love/hate relationship with WoW that you all are probably already tired of hearing me talk about, but it just goes to show that I can be aware of the "hooks" WoW's game design uses and still feel the temptation to play.

I played and liked DDO and I'm very happy that Turbine has had success with a "F2P with an item shop" model, but there are good reasons why WoW costs $15 a month. The amount of new content is beyond anything else I've seen in the genre.

Now if all MMOs could move beyond dull-as-dishwater combat systems and stop packing the games with filler (kill these ten rats, run from point A to point B on foot until you hit level 20 and get your mount, only select classes can teleport and then only between a few locations), we'd all stand to benefit.

EDIT: Yes, I know that you can travel between towns instantly in Guild Wars (and I love that feature), but I'm not talking about CORPGs. I'm talking about MMOs.

When the Dragon Quest series abandons random encounters and gives players a spell to instantly teleport between previously visited locations (it's called Zoom; you get it about 6-10 hours into the game), it means that it's time for other genres to move on.

Random encounters are officially dead. It's time "press 1 to attack, wait for gauge to fill, press 2 for special attack" combat dies, too.
 
Last edited:
In my personal opinion, subscription makes for a better game...but WoW is a joke... I DO NOT think WoW is a good game...(but I am going to stop myself from ranting)... Blizzard has been using the same tactics that F2P games use to keep you playing for years... Any game that HAS to use "carrot on a stick" tactics to keep you playing is a joke...and that is what most F2P games use, and what WoW has used for years... Why must they turn everything into a repeatable action in order to get an item...that is lame and boring... Raiding a dungeon 50 times just to get my new sword or whatever is not fun, but by the time you get there you are already addicted to the game and the upcoming "shiny" or "carrot on a stick"...so you "think" it is fun...when, if you sit back and think about it...how much fun is killing that boss for the 100th time...really?? I think not... (whoops, I ranted anyways)
 
Despite the fact that I'm a well-known, outspoken WoW lover, I've actually tried playing a number of other subscribed and non-subscribed MMOs or MMO-like games.

Sorry to say it, but they pretty much all sucked.

What I mean is that WoW seems to have a sweet spot nailed between community and grind, story and grind, and achievement and grind.

When I played GW, I didn't feel like I was grinding as much as in WoW, but I felt very, very alone in the world. In fact, I didn't even feel like my character was in the world at all -- it was like I was a disembodied spirit living in a world that didn't know I existed.

I generally agree with Stc95, that you need to pay money if you're going to get a good game except... many of the sub-based games I've played (WAR, LOTRO, DDO) didn't do it for me either. And now those games have pretty much admitted that they aren't up to the same level as and can't compete with Blizzard.

So I'd say you have to make sure you're paying the right people. My MMO hall of fame looks like this:

1. WoW. Especially now.
2. EVE. The game is way too hard core for me to play, I have a wife, a job, etc., but it's still a great game.
3. LOTRO. Yeah, I said they didn't do it for me. But, Blizzard often cites them as the one MMO on the market today (other than EVE) that continually comes out with genre-defying ideas that Blizzard can't wait to see. And maybe steal.
 
/OFFTOPIC

I'd like to address XionTawa here for a second.
The basic underlying form of a "game" is what's called a "Skinner box," named after B.F. Skinner.

In a skinner box, participants are made to repeatedly do actions in order to gain more-and-more elusive rewards. Building a skinner box is a way of reinforcing behaviors, i.e., addicting people to your games.

Games like "Magic the Gathering," "FrontierVille," and yes, "World of Warcraft" all have Skinner boxes at their core. In general, you would agree that gaining rewards in WoW are easy at low levels, and become harder and harder at high levels. That's what makes a game fun.

Hockey is the same way. In the little leagues, "everyone wins" and winning and scoring points comes easy. In the Minors, it's rougher, and only a handful get that coveted draft pick. In the NHL, only one team wins every game, and every score is a hard-fought battle. In the playoffs, only one team wins, and they fought for that cup. If you lose the last game, it doesn't matter that you were at the game, you still lost. Skinner box (albeit skill-based more than random.)

I have a theory that says that great games break the skinner box and go away from the grind. I would argue that (since you stopped playing) WoW has largely done away with a lot of the skinner box. That doesn't mean I don't raid the same dungeon every friday, but it does mean that if I have a run of bad drops, I'm not crippled (like I was in TBC.)

It actually does mean I could choose not to run that dungeon if I didn't want to. I actually do want to.
 
Neirai the Forgiven said:
I have a theory that says that great games break the skinner box and go away from the grind. I would argue that (since you stopped playing) WoW has largely done away with a lot of the skinner box. That doesn't mean I don't raid the same dungeon every friday, but it does mean that if I have a run of bad drops, I'm not crippled (like I was in TBC.)

It actually does mean I could choose not to run that dungeon if I didn't want to. I actually do want to.
Click to expand...

I was to the point in WoW (only playing like 2-6 hour a week) where there was NOTHING left to do but raid... And all aspects felt like a grind to me... I don't think at any time I felt WoW had a sweet spot between fun and grinding...because everything felt grindy to me...I played the game for 5.5 years and I really only enjoyed a handful of experiences in WoW... Also...I never felt challenged...as long as you have the right group, the game is cake walk... I don't enjoy games that base the game around the destination...what ever happen to the journey...because we can all agree that levels 1-60 is a bore...
 
Also...I never felt challenged...as long as you have the right group, the game is cake walk... I don't enjoy games that base the game around the destination...what ever happen to the journey...because we can all agree that levels 1-60 is a bore...
Click to expand...

I agree. That's why all the real 'classics' that are still fun today are the ones that make you want to throw the controller at the TV because you've done the same level 50 times in a row, and not because you didn't get the random item you wanted, but because it was just that hard! When you finally beat it, you felt some sort of accomplishment for all your hard work, rather than feeling like you finally got lucky!
 
Neirai the Forgiven said:
The basic underlying form of a "game" is what's called a "Skinner box," named after B.F. Skinner.
Click to expand...
Whoa, did you read that Cracked article, too? (There's no way I'm going to a link a Cracked article on the forums, no matter how insightful it was. There's just too much inappropriate material on Cracked.)

Neirai the Forgiven said:
I have a theory that says that great games break the skinner box and go away from the grind.
Click to expand...
I would very much like to see more and more games do exactly that, but old habits die hard. Random encounters were obsolete the day Chrono Trigger released (in 1995), but they took another 15 years to die out completely (with the release of Dragon Quest IX). I want to see a MMO that dares to purge all the cruft and filler and make every level fun. How many times have I heard how dreadfully boring levels 1-60 are in WoW?

Average WoW player: "Oh, just make it through the first 60 levels then drop $30-$40 per expansion and the game's a blast!"

Me: *blank stare* "Do you have the brain damage? ...I'm going to go play Super Mario Galaxy 2 now."

Granted, Cataclysm is supposed to revamp the first 60 levels, but combat will very likely remain dull.

Neirai the Forgiven said:
I would argue that (since you stopped playing) WoW has largely done away with a lot of the skinner box. That doesn't mean I don't raid the same dungeon every friday, but it does mean that if I have a run of bad drops, I'm not crippled (like I was in TBC.)
Click to expand...
When talking about WoW, I get the sense that we are, at any time, talking about one of three different things:
  1. Stock WoW, with no expansions
  2. WoW plus The Burning Crusade
  3. WoW plus The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King
For the sake of this topic, it might be helpful for people to identify which they're talking about: WoW, WoW+TBC, or WoW+WotLK.

For the record: I only played a few hours of The Burning Crusade beta, so the large bulk of my experience is with stock WoW.
 
XionTawa said:
...Also...I never felt challenged...I don't enjoy games that base the game around the destination...what ever happen to the journey....
Click to expand...

Wow has no journey. They've updated the game so that you level faster now (heirloom items, bigger xp rewards, etc). There is only the destination.

Despite this I believe that instances below level 60 are tougher than heroic instances at level 80, thus requiring more skill. I also believe that PVP is many times more fun pre-level 80 than it is at level 80. You do not get steamrolled by people who have clearly invested their lives in to one character with ∞ resilience and 9 billion spell damage and/or attack power. Even though you can turn off experience in game for 10g, you don't get to play in the battle grounds with people who have not turned off their experience... you have to play with others like you who have their xp turned off - ridiculous.

Neirai the Forgiven said:
/OFFTOPIC...Games like "Magic the Gathering," "FrontierVille," and yes, "World of Warcraft" all have Skinner boxes at their core. In general, you would agree that gaining rewards in WoW are easy at low levels, and become harder and harder at high levels. That's what makes a game fun....
Click to expand...

WoW's Skinner Box only has one stimuli... and one response mechanism. The end game isn't difficult enough to convince me theres more than one stimuli.

I came back this summer, level my mage to 80, got an adequate gearscore (this is utterly stupid, by the way) and started to raid in ICC-10 with my newly reformed raiding guild. In 2 months we were at Sindragosa, the first day we spent on her we got her down to 40k hp.

Raiding simply isn't challenging anymore.

Don't argue that 25 man and heroic versions of both aren't more difficult either. Twenty-five man versions offer better loot (which will soon change in Cataclysm, iirc), but thats where the differences end. Once you know the fight for 10 man, you now know it for 25 man and 10/25 heroic.
 
Last edited:
Tek7 said:
Whoa, did you read that Cracked article, too? (There's no way I'm going to a link a Cracked article on the forums, no matter how insightful it was. There's just too much inappropriate material on Cracked.)
Click to expand...

No, I just have a strong interest in game theory. Therefore, I know stuff ;)

Tek7 again said:
Granted, Cataclysm is supposed to revamp the first 60 levels, but combat will very likely remain dull.
Click to expand...
As someone who is in the Cataclysm beta, I can tell you that (unless you play a priest, which is bugged right now in beta,) the combat is much more compelling. As are the stories in all of the zones. Just last night I inadvertantly resurrected an old-school raid boss. Oops. And last month I conquered an alliance capital city for the horde, and turned it into a quest hub. At least, until they brought their fleet of battleships over and kicked me out...

Oh yeah, combat. All of the enemies in WoW now have more abilities, making each enemy no longer a one-trick pony. At high levels, you're looking at 5-trick ponies, for example.

In addition, with the release of Cataclysm, there will no longer be a "stock WoW." You will not need to buy Cataclysm, TBC, or WotLK in order to play 1-60 as any of the "old races" -- i.e., races that are not Draenai, Worgen, Blood Elves, or Goblins.
 
Odale said:
Wow has no journey. They've updated the game so that you level faster now (heirloom items, bigger xp rewards, etc). There is only the destination.
Click to expand...

Cataclysm says hi. This expansion is all about the journey, imho. While heirlooms do exist, they're harder to get (largely for the purpose of leveling a character that you don't want to journey with) and the XP is no longer easy to come by.

...lots of stuff about how WoW is easy...
Click to expand...

Wrath of the Lich King was plagued with a mistaken issue (the gear-level issue caused by the inclusion of Hard Mode gear) which resulted in Wrath being the WoW EZmode Expansion.

Cataclysm is harder. Or, that's how it seems. I got my head handed to me on a platter last week trying to solo a 2-man group quest -- it was actually hard. Despite having a supposedly Overpowered character (one of my attacks is broken and hits for roughly triple what it should) I could not get past the quest on any of my seven attempts.

I came back later with my brother, and we managed it.

End-game stuff is supposed to be harder, too. WoW devs have promised that "easy mode is for everyone, hard mode is for hard cores only."


Plus, Cataclysm will herald the beginning of Friend-vs-Friend PVP. Woot.
 
Neirai the Forgiven said:
Cataclysm says hi. This expansion is all about the journey, imho. While heirlooms do exist, they're harder to get (largely for the purpose of leveling a character that you don't want to journey with) and the XP is no longer easy to come by.



Wrath of the Lich King was plagued with a mistaken issue (the gear-level issue caused by the inclusion of Hard Mode gear) which resulted in Wrath being the WoW EZmode Expansion.

Cataclysm is harder. Or, that's how it seems. I got my head handed to me on a platter last week trying to solo a 2-man group quest -- it was actually hard. Despite having a supposedly Overpowered character (one of my attacks is broken and hits for roughly triple what it should) I could not get past the quest on any of my seven attempts.

I came back later with my brother, and we managed it.

End-game stuff is supposed to be harder, too. WoW devs have promised that "easy mode is for everyone, hard mode is for hard cores only."


Plus, Cataclysm will herald the beginning of Friend-vs-Friend PVP. Woot.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I started playing WoW a week or two ago to see what it would be like pre- and post-Cataclysm and so far my largest complaint is the combat; it's kind of slow.
 
I left when BC came out, cause I was a big RPer, and their storyline for BC, and alliance shamans/horde paladins just made me sigh in disappointment.

Came back and tried out a BC trial, and wasn't very impressed. Haven't been back since.

Regarding Blizzard's recent actions as a company, I have to say that I don't like the company anymore. I haven't bought SC2, and I wouldn't play WoW if it was free. Just too much... nonsense and money grubbing surrounding Blizz anymore, with Activision and the 2 guys they fired. It puts a bad taste in my mouth.

I like somebody's signature in these forums... "Tyrannids > Zerg." That's probably my biggest reason now. ;) Pansy wannabe thieves... Can't wait to play the baddest Space Marines in fictional awesomeness! WH40k Online releases 2013!!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top