For those of us that start pugs...

LavendrGooms

LavendrGooms

Member
Well I've ran into this problem multiple times... Most of the time when I start a pug for something I get people that tell you they're 2.9k-3k GS. I usually check to see if they're not lieing... But I don't know how many times I've brought someone with 3k GS and they've never done the fight before. About a month ago when I did a 10 man Sartharion 3 Drake Zerg and I had 2 DPS that had never killed Sartharion before... Eventhough they had over 2.9k GS! A lot of times I have people link an achievement but I found a website that will tell you how much of each instance they've experienced. A more in depth wow-heroes.

Elitist Armory

I don't really like the whole "gear score" thing because it really has nothing to do with how well you play. This website at least shows how much experience they have as well.

Just thought I'd share.
 
Wow-armory also has raid statistics you can view. I like the interface there a little better since there's no mouse over and its a bit easier to read. this is a good find tho.
 
isnt there a mod you can DL to have it as a quick reference in game? or can you only see stats like that if you minimize the game every time you invite someone into the raid? :P
 
That's the thing about 2nd-best emblems available through heroics - people that are gearing up have no reason to run any earlier raids. I really don't know how this would be fixed though, or even if it needs to be.
 
Flamethrøwer said:
That's the thing about 2nd-best emblems available through heroics - people that are gearing up have no reason to run any earlier raids. I really don't know how this would be fixed though, or even if it needs to be.
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2 cents incoming: IMO, heroic badges should get you gear good enough to get you into the first raid of an expansion, no further. Being able to run nothing but random heroics on brain-dead mode all the up to ICC10 level gear is stupid, stupid, stupid. Not only are you going to be completely inexperienced and not know what you're doing, this new system takes MOST of the fun of raiding out of the game. It's not fun when you're ONLY doing the same raid on repeat and NObody is running anything else at all. Oh sure, you'll see a pug for ToC or Ony from time to time, but it's extremely rare. Back in BC, people were still raiding Kara for serials all the way up until Wrath launched. Every raid was still run...and frequently at that...and they weren't considered "useless." This whole new 'weekly raid quest' crap-system doesn't make players do old raids, as was Blizzard's claimed intent. It makes people throw together the first 10 people who whisper them, gather all the trash in one big pull, AoE it down, and kill a boss in 45 seconds. Then you leave... what's the fun in that? The new heroic badge system really killed 90% of this expansion for me, in all honestly. I'm just glad that ICC is actually a good, fun, and challenging raid...if it wasn't as good as it is, I would have probably canceled my subscription 2 or 3 months ago.
 
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I'll piggyback on this, if I may...

As a new raider, there's this little gap between the rock and the hard place that WoW seems to have pigeon-holed us. On the one hand, whether you plan to spend time with guild mates or intend to pug everything, it means new raiders had better get geared up for ICC quickly, because that's where everyone else wants and needs to be. Conversely, that means we're inexperienced, underskilled, and probably undergeared, regardless of what the gear score might indicate (264 pvp items). I'm thankful for heroic emblems, but only because there is no incentive for the average raider to ever run old instances once new content is released.

It's a lose/lose situation for most involved. The experienced players are probably frustrated to have inexperienced players filling critical raid spots, and if the inexperienced players are anything at all like me, they probably feel bad to be filling a critical raid spot, given their lack of experience. Neither party has much choice, however.

Redeemed is the only silver lining to this cloud, in that we new guys/gals are made to feel welcome despite our e-shortcomings, and therefore, we are more likely to become helpful additions to a raid party with the active mentoring happening here.
 
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In other words - there is a big gap between experienced and non-experienced that is hard to transcend. The mid-content is tough to wade through - 2 frosts/day - and the nerfed weekly raid that other than the badges is absolutely worthless. I find Uldaman still to be challenging and would like to see that mid-level utilized, but pugs there have been very disappointing to me in there. There is some worthwhile gear there for those building up to ICC.

I, for one, was not that interested in Uldaman because I did not want to endure that part of the learning curve that makes me look like a fool especially since my keyboarding skills leave a lot to be desired. However, for building up to ICC, it is pretty good and is overlooked at present.

I appreciate the efforts of the leadership to help gear-up and build experience for those who are not up to veteran ICC level. It is going to take some time to get us all there and we are still building a group that can handle the Lich King in 10 or 25. I would like to be there before the expansion comes out. Avesther looks cool with his "King Slayer" title. I am not much into achievements other than the ones like this. (I am sorry, but I could not stoop to the goofiness of what I perceived the bunny/egg thing was. It was like being subjected to an afternoon of "I Love Lucy" which is so goofy it is too embarrassing in massive doses.) But for me, the end game content is not the only thing still challenging. I also suspect it is somewhat challenging to endure me!
 
I understand exactly how you guys feel. I distinctly remember the feeling, after having bascially AFK'd for a couple months, leaving just after Ulduar dropped and not coming back, really until ICC was nearly released, of looking at all the LFGs in trade, noticing that they were all for raids I couldn't do yet and, on the occasion that it was one I did have gear for (Ulduar 10, at the time) I couldn't get a PuG to take me, because I didn't already know all the fights and strats. The outlook of a relatively fresh, unguilded 80 is extremely grim these days, and there is simply not enough going on out there to brighten it...
 
Pianoforte said:
2 cents incoming: IMO, heroic badges should get you gear good enough to get you into the first raid of an expansion, no further. Being able to run nothing but random heroics on brain-dead mode all the up to ICC10 level gear is stupid, stupid, stupid. Not only are you going to be completely inexperienced and not know what you're doing, this new system takes MOST of the fun of raiding out of the game. It's not fun when you're ONLY doing the same raid on repeat and NObody is running anything else at all. Oh sure, you'll see a pug for ToC or Ony from time to time, but it's extremely rare. Back in BC, people were still raiding Kara for serials all the way up until Wrath launched. Every raid was still run...and frequently at that...and they weren't considered "useless." This whole new 'weekly raid quest' crap-system doesn't make players do old raids, as was Blizzard's claimed intent. It makes people throw together the first 10 people who whisper them, gather all the trash in one big pull, AoE it down, and kill a boss in 45 seconds. Then you leave... what's the fun in that? The new heroic badge system really killed 90% of this expansion for me, in all honestly. I'm just glad that ICC is actually a good, fun, and challenging raid...if it wasn't as good as it is, I would have probably canceled my subscription 2 or 3 months ago.
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I agree 100%. You pretty much took the words out of my mouth lol. When I used to be on Hyjal my guild was one of the few doing Sunwell. Probably 75% of level 70's that were raiding were probably still in Kara. Now in Wrath everyone is on such an equal level... Which takes the fun out of being the few to down a high end raid boss. When I was in my Tier 6 everyone noticed, it was a big deal... Now being in Tier 10 is no big deal.
 
I must say, the main reason I've never been much of a raider before is primarily because of what we're discussing here. Pugs require gear scores and achievements, and most guilds are unforgiving of anyone other than their vets. Where, then, is someone who wasn't around in BC to start?

Redeemed has it right. There are nights reserved for veterans and progression, there are nights open to all comers, there are pick-up raids at any given time, there is lots of help with random heroics and badges, there is help with class specs and gear advice if needed... Here, there is some raiding fun for everyone, and I have to say I'm hooked!

To further derail an otherwise good thread, I've been pvp'ing with a titansteel destroyer for 2-3 seasons because that's the only weapon I could make for myself. I finally upgraded to a (gasp) ilevel 219 weapon a few months ago on a rare pug raid. Now, thanks to all of you, I have a shiny new 251 weapon to go after Hordies with! Oh yeah!
 
I'm no sure about these sites but I haven't checked into them that much. What about cases where a couple of my toons are in? They are well geared but haven't done many of the older raids although I know them very well. I now have a total of 5 80's on 3 different servers. 2 of them have gone most of the way through ICC (Hylander and Healsalot) but the others have just done the first wing and are still very well geared and have not done things like OS3d or some of the other challenging things in game. They all have 2.8-3k gs (the ones that haven't done these things). If someone checks these sites and doesn't allow them in, then they are losing a valuable asset. I have good gear and lots of knowledge on these other 80's but I don't have the achievements. Going by these sites I wouldn't be let in on lots of raids where I probably know more about it than the person leading it.
 
I agree with Warrzone - we have a good system in place right now. Although I kind of liked the fact that I wasn't doing the latest raid back in BC. I had come late to the 70 party, but I liked the fact that there was content that I would likely never see. Knowing the latest raid nearly all the way through leaves nothing to be wondering about. In BC, I always thought how cool it would be to be raiding the Black Temple, and how I would probably never get there lol.

I just think the fact that some of the game appeared unattainable to me added to the wonder of it. But like you said, if 75% of 70s were stuck at Kara and only 10-25% of raiders were seeing the latest raid they worked so hard on, it's not a good thing. They want most players to be able to play all the way through the story, and I can appreciate that as well.
 
healsalot said:
I'm no sure about these sites but I haven't checked into them that much. What about cases where a couple of my toons are in? They are well geared but haven't done many of the older raids although I know them very well. I now have a total of 5 80's on 3 different servers. 2 of them have gone most of the way through ICC (Hylander and Healsalot) but the others have just done the first wing and are still very well geared and have not done things like OS3d or some of the other challenging things in game. They all have 2.8-3k gs (the ones that haven't done these things). If someone checks these sites and doesn't allow them in, then they are losing a valuable asset. I have good gear and lots of knowledge on these other 80's but I don't have the achievements. Going by these sites I wouldn't be let in on lots of raids where I probably know more about it than the person leading it.
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Same with Redletters - I skipped most raids, and dont have the achievements, yet I've cleared ICC through Putricide. I dont think many pugs are looking at old raid achievements though. Most realize you can skip right over them.
 
Flamethrøwer said:
I agree with Warrzone - we have a good system in place right now. Although I kind of liked the fact that I wasn't doing the latest raid back in BC. I had come late to the 70 party, but I liked the fact that there was content that I would likely never see. Knowing the latest raid nearly all the way through leaves nothing to be wondering about. In BC, I always thought how cool it would be to be raiding the Black Temple, and how I would probably never get there lol.

I just think the fact that some of the game appeared unattainable to me added to the wonder of it. But like you said, if 75% of 70s were stuck at Kara and only 10-25% of raiders were seeing the latest raid they worked so hard on, it's not a good thing. They want most players to be able to play all the way through the story, and I can appreciate that as well.
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Yes. This is an observation I have made as well. It seems one of Blizz's biggest goals this time around was for everyone who wanted to see ICC, to see ICC with reasonably little commitment.

I, however, am right there with Flame in the sense that I hit the 70 party kinda late, but I was enamored with exclusivity of Sunwell. I thought it was awesome! The fact that my guild (Banished Kings-lol) couldn't even down trash in BT/SW was, to me, the coolest thing ever. Made me look at the guys running around with the REAL mage-tenna (not that S2 crap) like O_O....and that's gone in Wrath, and not just because T10 looks lame. Literally 1/3 to 1/2 of the 80s you see in a given playing session are at least 2500 gs or better, with 2pc T10....where is the fun in that?
 
Pianoforte said:
Yes. This is an observation I have made as well. It seems one of Blizz's biggest goals this time around was for everyone who wanted to see ICC, to see ICC with reasonably little commitment.

I, however, am right there with Flame in the sense that I hit the 70 party kinda late, but I was enamored with exclusivity of Sunwell. I thought it was awesome! The fact that my guild (Banished Kings-lol) couldn't even down trash in BT/SW was, to me, the coolest thing ever. Made me look at the guys running around with the REAL mage-tenna (not that S2 crap) like O_O....and that's gone in Wrath, and not just because T10 looks lame. Literally 1/3 to 1/2 of the 80s you see in a given playing session are at least 2500 gs or better, with 2pc T10....where is the fun in that?
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Same thing happened to me when I hit 60. It was about a month before BC came out and I was so lost with all the different levels of gear. But in BC I was on the fore front of raiding and I loved it! It was so much fun. Now in Wrath it feels like it wouldn't be as much fun. It's not so exclusive anymore lol.
 
This is my 2 cents worth here..raiding in Wrath is a cake-walk compared to Vanilla WoW. Granted it still requires coordination but nothing on the scale of vanilla or even TBC..

Take something like the latest boss in VoA..essentially kill and add and swap tanking, the dungeons in Vanilla took more effort. Granted this boss isn't supposed to be "hard" but out of all the raiding I've done in Wrath albeit limited as it is...it makes me sorely miss the good old days.. Gear Scoring is the STUPIDEST thing ever invented..it says nothing for a person's abilities, people will simple equip a 245 item b/c it makes their GS go up, rather then using the BiS item. I've seen people in greens/blues outperform people in full 232-245 items, so if someone whispers me w/ "I have a 2930 GS" for the weekly raid I simply ignore it.

Epic Gear handouts is like candy now and most people with 1/2 a brain can figure out the new raids fairly fast...the sad part is I can't believe how many heroic groups I've ran across with several people ICC10 geared or better and they barely know how to clear a heroic w/o wiping....oh how I miss the days of CC in MC...
 
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Agreed! I kind of miss the days where the most important thing for me to do was keep my target Sheeped, at all costs!! It created a NEED for a certain group make-up as well as players who understand that its not just all about the pew-pew. I didn't really like not ever being close to seeing end game content though. Unfortunately the game went from one end of the extreme (only insanely good players/guilds can get in) to the other (skill means very little, bring anyone).

Hopefully Cataclysm finds the middle ground sweet spot for raiding content. And if it doesn't...at least you can roll Worgen to keep people happy.
 
bestbw said:
Agreed! I kind of miss the days where the most important thing for me to do was keep my target Sheeped, at all costs!! It created a NEED for a certain group make-up as well as players who understand that its not just all about the pew-pew. I didn't really like not ever being close to seeing end game content though. Unfortunately the game went from one end of the extreme (only insanely good players/guilds can get in) to the other (skill means very little, bring anyone).

Hopefully Cataclysm finds the middle ground sweet spot for raiding content. And if it doesn't...at least you can roll Worgen to keep people happy.
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I do miss being NEEDED for crowd control. And man was it hard to drop a trap and pull the target right over it. I'm really looking forward to Cataclysm to see where Blizzard takes things...
 
As a guy who's seen all sides of the raiding world, I have to say that I stand somewhere in between Piano's loathing of gear handouts and thinking that Wrath's raid style has been handled very well.

Blizzard said from the beta that they wanted to make the raid environment in Wrath more accessible. Naxx is still on of the coolest raids in the game, falling short of Ulduar and AQ in my opinion. Something like 4% of the player base saw Naxx in its original form. Being one of them, I was glad to see it return. The one thing I did hate was that it was the Wrath version of Kara.

I'm glad they want people who want to fight Arthas to have the option of doing it. I'm also glad that they maintain the distinction between hardmodes, 10s and 25s.

I'm torn on the badge system. I like that I can gear up my alts quickly. I don't like that anybody with a few hours to kill can wind up in full t9.

One possible solution that I've thought of is to make the last boss of each wing of the old raids drop 3 of the current badges. That keeps people running the old content. That makes upgrading a new character's gear fairly likely without running VH three times a day. It also keeps those of us who have time to raid maybe twice a week from pulling our hair out at the fact that it takes 400 frost badges to get full t10.
 
Not gonna lie, I wish I could install a camera in Naxx and make PuG groups in t9/10 go in there so I can watch them wipe repeatedly against Heigan the Unclean because the thought of moving and fighting at the same time is apparently mindblowing for most folks.
 
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