Where have all the 20-somethings gone?

What do you mean?

When "there are Christians are all over the place", they can spread the word of God/Christ.

In communities, schools, events, this forum, etc.

Technically, the ones showing up in this forum are "already" Christians that are overjoyed there is a Christian Forum filled with Christians (And some Non-Christians/Atheists/Spammers).

Are you a Christian, Braveheart? If so, how long?
 
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When "there are Christians are all over the place", they can spread the word of God/Christ.

In communities, schools, events, this forum, etc.

Technically, the ones showing up in this forum are "already" Christians that are overjoyed there is a Christian Forum filled with Christians (And some Non-Christians/Atheists/Spammers).

Are you a Christian, Braveheart? If so, how long?

Oh ok i see, i have been raised up as a Christian, no not catholic, Mormon, i don't speak in tongues, etc, i am just a old school Christian.
 
Oh ok i see, i have been raised up as a Christian, no not catholic, Mormon, i don't speak in tongues, etc, i am just a old school Christian.

i understand the mormon and catholic thing, but technically an old school christian believes in tongues and should be seen or acknowledged within a church or christian themselves, regardless if they can have the gift themselves.
 
Do you think this assessment is accurate?
If you agree, why do you think so few 20-somethings attend a local church?
1. Yes sad but truly accurate. All my older kids have stepped away to attend their own selfish ways(my words and they are behaving just like I used to). Why I have no clue. I guess failure on my part. I feel the seed is there and will grow when its time but my selfishness wants them to appreciate what they have been given. Ha like if its not a material thing please don't share is the attitude I get. I can't judge their heart and try not to worry but I do both. More fertilizer plz!!!

2. To find the right church is difficult even for old dogs who have moved and even more so for those that move alot hehehe.Its all about where your heart will be touched and fed. It takes alot to hold the youth focused and in spirit and if they can't find they won't go until they are utterly humbled(like I was).Thats were we the few need to reach every where we go to provide encouragement, sound philosophy and most of all show the love we have for the gift given. I pray everyday for todays youth living in a world crumbling to sin that they may realize that there is nothing you can take with you when the lord calls your number except the spirit within. The good thing is God cannot be contained by walls and will reach those when called upon. Some will plant for those who follow later to harvest. I am a member of a church where there is alot of young people and I can tell its more then the church that brings them back. Yet today I search closer to home for a heartbeat due to rising fuel costs. Every time we find one something turns us off and the search continues ( update on that is my wife filled out a guest card at a local church that brought humbleness to me and I wOOt believe she felt it to hahaha the first time she ever filled one out). So with all that said I can pray and continue personal growth to be light upon their path as mine is lit for me.
 
Wow. Some fantastic responses.

Before I type out a few thoughts, I wanted to thank everyone who posted and helped boost this thread into its third page while staying on topic. Reading your replies has been greatly encouraging. More importantly, I think we've started a long discussion on a topic that is not being talked about from behind the pulpit.

I want to go back and re-read some posts, pick out specific lines to quote, and post more of my thoughts on the problem and potential solutions. That will likely take some time, so it might be later this week or even the weekend before I can do so.

In the meantime, I want to encourage those 20-somethings and 30-somethings searching for a "home" church to persevere. Also realize that there is no such thing as the perfect church. I believe the American "religion of consumption" has so infected the average person's mind that many Christians will decide not to attend a church rather than attend one that they see as flawed.

I'm not advocating "settling" for the first church you attend, but I do encourage everyone searching for a home church not to give up or dismiss a church because of a flaw that its leaders might fix or improve in time.

I'll share a bit of my personal story, then it will likely be time for dinner.

My wife and I moved to a new city in August 2004. From that time forward, we started searching for a church where we wanted to attend and get involved. We visited over 30 churches, "lingering" at some a little while longer than others, before choosing a home church in February 2006. We moved again in August 2007, meaning we spent about as much time searching for a church as attending and finding ways to get involved.

I don't suppose that's a terribly encouraging story, but, in my opinion, our circumstances are much, much better than those of the person who gives up on the search. We're back in the same city as our home church for two months while my wife completes a rotation here and we've both said that we'll miss our church more than anything else when we move.

Our experiences at the church have even nudged us to a point where we say, "If it's God's will that we stay in the area, we could live with that." Considering how severely I loathed this area after moving here in August 2004, that's saying quite a lot. There are other contributing factors, of course, but knowing that there's a place where people love us, flawed as we are, means so much.

And while the church we attend is fantastic, it's still painfully obvious that even our church, full of genuine people who take care of one another and truly love Christ, has only a handful of 20-somethings.

On a side note: To my knowledge, the only other 20-something couples in our church have children. Those who don't have friends with children might say, "That doesn't make a difference"--but it does. Having children propels you into a new season of life. It doesn't mean you can't be friends with people who haven't had children yet; it does mean that there's far less in common.

When I revisit this post, I'll post about my own experiences in Tulsa (where kraniac and I attended the same church for several years), my own experiences in a college-age church where I felt like a complete outsider, and some terms I've come up with to label trends in the modern church.

Since I have an extra minute, I'll end with a question containing some of those labels that some may find offensive:

Do you agree that the effort to present a "X-TREME t-shirt Christ" to youth groups and a "coffeehouse Christ" to college students is largely--or at least partially--responsible for the drought of dedicated 20-somethings in the modern American church?
 
Before I get to my reply, I should briefly mention that I post all of these thoughts and protests with great reservation. In attacking things that I find grievously wrong with the church today I don't mean to imply that I am not a devoted follower of Christ insofar as my conscience and rational mind will allow me to be. In no way am I attempting to call into question the veracity of any of the core Christian tenets as defined in the TOJ charter. I wholeheartedly endorse every point of TOJ's Profession of Faith. I am simply of the mind that the ways that the church at large are conducting church services and promoting the Christian faith are neither correct, nor effective, nor what the original disciples of Christ intended.

Tek7 said:
Do you agree that the effort to present a "X-TREME t-shirt Christ" to youth groups and a "coffeehouse Christ" to college students is largely--or at least partially--responsible for the drought of dedicated 20-somethings in the modern American church?

I do agree with this idea, but I think the problem is more fundamental than that. It's not in the particular cultures that you mentioned that I find the problem. In my mind the problem is the concept of linking Christianity with a specific culture at all.

Now, I don't believe that coffeehouses are a legitimate culture unto themselves, but that's another topic, and whether or not they are, the types of churches we're discussing treat them as one, so for the sake of argument, assume them to represent one.

In linking Christianity with a particular culture, we implicitly define a "Christian" proper as belonging to that culture alone. In other words, we turn the Christian walk into a Christian lifestyle (in the marketing sense of the term). In the case of the last church I attended (not Grace, a different one), by consistently playing and promoting one style of music (via the praise and worship in service as well as church-produced CDs sold as a missions fundraiser), they were defining that style of music as the official or approved music for the members of that church, if not the only legitimate style for Christians in general. Those whose listening habits fit in with the culture dictated by the church leaders were enthusiastic and kept attending. Those who didn't fit in (like me) eventually lost interest.

Now, music was not the only deciding factor in my leaving that church (it wasn't even the main reason, for that matter), but it was certainly a part of it. By trying to appeal to a specific group of people, we limit the scope of our faith in a way that it should not be limited.

I believe this problem is rooted psychologically, in a misunderstanding or improper ordering of how we define ourselves in relation to the world, with regards to our faith and our culture.

Few people doubt that proper acceptance of our faith requires that we put Christianity, and by extension God, first in our lives. God belongs at the top of our list of priorities. When we make any decision, God's commandments must come before all other considerations.

But the mistake lies in believing that putting God first requires that we define ourselves as Christians before we apply any further definitions of self. It is my belief that we should apply definitions of self in order of chronological acquisition (or broad-to-narrow) rather than decision-making priority. The church today demands that we say "I am a Christian first, and a human being with unique interests and a personality second. When the nature of the second violates the dictates of the first, I go with the first." In short, the church today attempts to dictate personality, and I find that horrifying.

The way I define myself, I am, first and foremost, a human being, created by God to have unique cultural tastes, interests, personality, and a rational mind by which I can discern the truth and seek God. Since it is this unique personality which has led me to accept Christianity in the first place, I should not let Christianity dictate any previously-defined portions of my self-identity.

It is for this reason that I have been unable to find a church that I can attend without severe reservations. Most churches "market" to a very specific cultural audience at the expense of all others. I'm not looking for a church that fits my specific cultural audience, I'm looking for a church that doesn't limit itself to a cultural audience. I don't need to have a church where everyone participates in the same cultures that I do. I just need a church that accepts more than one culture as valid (so long as Christian values are compatible with that culture... i.e. "Dogfighting culture" is probably out of the question).
 
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I think churches are afraid of them and this age group can tell.

Many American churches have everyone divided up into age and status groups. Too many churches don't know what to do with this age group if they 1) aren't with their parents, 2) don't have kids (as Tek said), or 3) are single. Generally, those who fit these categories are looking for a stronger community than just showing up on Sunday, and the church either isn't willing or doesn't know how to address that need. Too many churches focus on youth and nuclear families, so anything which doesn't quite fit that mold (including older singles) just gets ignored, even if people are clamoring for ministry to be there. Another problem I know that is very common is the fact that a lot of churches can't find anyone to actually work with this group unless it comes out of that group itself. They say..."well, you can come work with the youth or children, but we don't have anything for your group in particular and we don't really see the importance of setting that up". In some churches, I know another reason has been that people think that it pushes singles to be married with families as fast as possible (but that might be more common in Baptist circles, I admit).
 
It's interesting, when I saw Tek's post yesterday, my first thought was, "and what if you're NOT an X-treme or coffeehouse kind of person"? But I think Kraniac summed it up much more eloquently than I could have. When I was in high school, I was totally into being a "Jesus Freak". In college, I joined a campus ministry group and got sucked into that subculture. It was very much about putting myself into the accepted mold.

However in recent years, I've really developed an appreciation for how Christ meets us where we are, whereever that may be. Intellectual or punk rocker, rich or poor, black, white, indian, asian, hispanic, or mixed, shy or outgoing, urban or rural... Christ loves and accepts us as we are, for who we are. It's not about fitting the perfect mold... it's about letting Christ shine through our individual personalities and helping us become the best we can be for Him. Actually, that might be a very Generation X kind of thing as far as not wanting to feel the pressure to fit a specific lifestyle in order to be accepted, especially at church.

Part of it too may very well be the pressure to get married and make babies ASAP... most churches do seem to have that focus, and for those of us without kids (be it by choice or not), there seems to be a lack of understanding there. Not saying that childless folks/singles should be congratulated/praised for their marital status or lack of kids, as that's really a personal matter... but they shouldn't be treated as an abnormality within their church.
 
Sheesh. I feel like a simpleton after reading Kraniac's response. I was just looking for surface reasons, he was delving into deep psychological patterns. heh. Very well put.

moxie said:
Part of it too may very well be the pressure to get married and make babies ASAP... most churches do seem to have that focus, and for those of us without kids (be it by choice or not), there seems to be a lack of understanding there. Not saying that childless folks/singles should be congratulated/praised for their marital status or lack of kids, as that's really a personal matter... but they shouldn't be treated as an abnormality within their church.
I don't think that's limited to church, really. It seems that I face that question from people all over - work, school, people at the grocery store... believers or not, it doesn't matter.

I think that we're "programmed" to have the desire to have someone to pass along our stuff to. We eventually want to be able to explain everything we've learned to someone that is a part of us. I can tell my wife, my sister, my father, my neighbor, my best friend, my best friend's kids... but teaching your own child and watching them as they learn and grow.. it's just different. However, I think that could be a discussion all on it's own.

Tek said:
Do you agree that the effort to present a "X-TREME t-shirt Christ" to youth groups and a "coffeehouse Christ" to college students is largely--or at least partially--responsible for the drought of dedicated 20-somethings in the modern American church?

I agree wholly with what Kraniac said. A further piece on that - the music really is a big deal. Music has a much deeper significance when you start analyzing our beliefs. I'm not saying that if you play a Christian song backwards that you lose your faith, and forwards you'll gain it, but if you look at the lyrics of a song, the influence to our attitude is huge.

When I look back at the hardest and worst times in my life and think about the music I was listening to, I was listening to music with lyrics that promoted failing interpersonal relationships (whether it was with a significant other or with the family, the message was there). When I had periods of significant anger in my life - the lyrics were all stuff about hatred, resentment.

I don't believe that just because someone listens to Ozzy or a similar artist that they'll turn into axe-wielding psychos, but music filled with hate and anger, messages of destruction... can influence some people by NOT having a positive message. It could be a contributing factor to their perpetual bad mood, their problems with people in general, their unproductive personalities.

I'm not saying hard rock, screamo, death metal, etc is bad. I listen to screamo music, but the message behind it is positive. But my wife can tell you who much different I am (compared to when we met 10 years ago) and I think that a large portion of that is what I listen to.

Now, how does that relate? I think that Kraniac made a good point - the church only plays a certain style of music, and a lot of people fall outside that narrow line. I don't think that while we're praising the Lord, we have to sing a certain song, move a certain way. But most modern churches don't open it up to all styles.

How do we fix this? I'm not completely certain. You can't replace morning worship songs with rapcore/screamo/death metal. You'd scare off 99% of your existing congregation.

One of my co-workers goes to a church that might have the right idea. Whenever there is a Christian artist coming to town, the youth group sets up an evening out together....type....kind of thing... Anyway, they get the information out through the church, put up sign-ups, etc, and get groups together to go to the concerts. It doesn't matter the type of music, they put up a sign-up sheet. So it does keep a wider base of people interested at the church, because they know that there are other people with the same music tastes - gives them another common ground to forge friendships from.

/ramble.
 
i understand the mormon and catholic thing, but technically an old school christian believes in tongues and should be seen or acknowledged within a church or christian themselves, regardless if they can have the gift themselves.

oh...i had no idea....ok well then, i am not a old school...
 
when u said old school i think 1st century church :P
 
A further piece on that - the music really is a big deal. Music has a much deeper significance when you start analyzing our beliefs. I'm not saying that if you play a Christian song backwards that you lose your faith, and forwards you'll gain it, but if you look at the lyrics of a song, the influence to our attitude is huge.

When I look back at the hardest and worst times in my life and think about the music I was listening to, I was listening to music with lyrics that promoted failing interpersonal relationships (whether it was with a significant other or with the family, the message was there). When I had periods of significant anger in my life - the lyrics were all stuff about hatred, resentment.

I don't believe that just because someone listens to Ozzy or a similar artist that they'll turn into axe-wielding psychos, but music filled with hate and anger, messages of destruction... can influence some people by NOT having a positive message. It could be a contributing factor to their perpetual bad mood, their problems with people in general, their unproductive personalities.

You raise some very good points. I definitely agree that music is a powerful force that can affect our emotions, life outlook, and motivations. I've seen it happen in my own life and I've seen it in those around me also. There's a point on the other side of this coin worth discussing too, I think.

Many churches put a huge emphasis on the emotional component of praise and worship. They seek after the emotional high it brings and use that as the motivating force for the Christian walk. My old church began to do this to a degree I found unnerving. I started to ask those around me, "If we need a rock band playing energetic music to motivate us to live according to our principles, then how much of what we worship is God, and how much of what we worship is music?"

The only responses I got were all some form of "it doesn't really matter." But I think it matters tremendously. So I left.

Tying together my claim that the church service is now substantially different than what the first disciples of Jesus intended, I think it's worth noting that I can't remember any early examples of Christian gatherings that contained formal group singing or anything of the sort (If I'm wrong here, please correct me, the Bible is too large for me to remember all at once). The purpose of the meeting was to inform and edify rather than entertain or motivate.

I think that simply eliminating group-participation music from church services would both address the problem of churches catering exclusively to certain groups of people as well as bring the church service further in line with what the founders of Christianity intended.
 
Kraniac said:
The purpose of the meeting was to inform and edify rather than entertain or motivate.

Mostly... but I think that there is a certain amount of motivational text in the New Testament...which is what they were preaching.

The Book of James talks heavily about faith without action...and how it's not really faith. Those parts of the scripture are completely about calling people to action - motivating them to follow through with what they say they believe.
 
The purpose of the meeting was to inform and edify rather than entertain or motivate.
And kraniac raises another excellent point.

The "worship" services at many Midwestern American churches feels more like a concert than a time to worship our Lord and Savior. This trend was so common that it warranted developing a new term for it.

My wife and I had just left a Midwest church (that shall remain nameless) where the worship service was packed with a choir, a praise team (four to six singers in a line at the front of the stage), a worship leader with a McDonald's drive-through headset and a moderately conservative yet trendy Sunday suit, and cheesy Christian drama interspersed.

After the service, my wife and I got in the car. Hesitantly, I asked, "Did that worship service feel a little..." and I halted. I didn't want to say "fake" or "scripted" or "phony." So, I did was any respectful Christian would do.

"Well, did it feel a little, I don't know...a little 'jazz hands' to you?"

Yes, I used "jazz hands" as an adjective. And the term stuck.

I later expanded on the term by setting satirical lyrics to the famous song, Hello My Baby.

I'll practice prudence and discretion by withholding those lyrics at this time.

My wife and I dismissed more than a few churches during our long search for a home church because of the "Jazz Hands Syndrome;" however, I still believe there's value in traditional worship services. I just think there's a large chasm between a worship service and a Christian contemporary concert (especially since I find most CCM grating).

Perhaps the Christian 20-somethings are absent from the local church as a form of protest. Maybe it's their way of saying, "Stop treating me like I'm a witless sheep addicted to emotional highs and pyramid scheme-style 'Prosperity Gospel' economics"?

Might be.
 
Perhaps the Christian 20-somethings are absent from the local church as a form of protest. Maybe it's their way of saying, "Stop treating me like I'm a witless sheep addicted to emotional highs and pyramid scheme-style 'Prosperity Gospel' economics"?

Guilty, more or less. I haven't sworn off church entirely but I'm not bothering to try any more churches until I find something substantially different from my current options. Also, I am definitely appropriating the "jazz hands" term, with credit. :)

Mostly... but I think that there is a certain amount of motivational text in the New Testament...which is what they were preaching.

The Book of James talks heavily about faith without action...and how it's not really faith. Those parts of the scripture are completely about calling people to action - motivating them to follow through with what they say they believe.

Definitely true. I meant motivate from a purely emotional standpoint rather than giving real reasons to live out our faith.
 
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/bump

I was thinking of this discussion recently (since I'll be living in Tulsa for 8 weeks, starting in January) and wanted to see if anyone else wanted to post their thoughts on the topic.
 
Well, my parents haven't gone to church in a long time because they're far out of mainstream Christianity - don't agree with many of the things being taught in modern churches, don't want us being "misled", and don't even think the format is Biblical(one guy teaching everybody else).

I don't plan on attending church when I move out. The cost outweighs any benefits. ... you seemingly have a one in a thousand chance of finding a church where you'll actually have fellowship with other Christians(which is the whole bloody point of a church.)
I work on Sunday, anyway.
 
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