Beer & the Bible

Pelagrin

Pelagrin

Member
The following article appeared in the St. Louis Post Dispatch this past weekend (a very liberal newspaper)

Read and discuss:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...1FDE58A96F4DFD38862572700022CCCA?OpenDocument


I have mixed feelings when reading this.

I do agree with the fact that we need to go into the world to reach the sinners. Sure there are a lot of unsaved sinners in churches, but a majority of the lost will not be found in churches. However, going to the sinners doesn't mean that one should partake in the same activities. As my wife put it, if one were to follow the locical conclusion presented by drinking alcohol during a bible study as a hook to attract the lost, then does that mean we will start partaking in drugs to attract drug users, or having bible studies in "exotic dance" clubs???

One big problem that I have is that a Christian should not take on the aspects of a sinner while trying to reach that person. As Christians, we are to be set apart and should be changing the world, not allowing the world to change us.

As I was discussing it with my wife, she and I both agreed that we don't have a problem with people choosing to drink -- on occasion we might have a glass of wine with dinner. We both do think that alcohol has no place in church, aside from the few denominations that use wine for communion.

A friend of mine made a comment recently that the world would probably be a much better place without alcohol. I do agree with him. However, he also pointed out that the bible doesn't saw that drinking alcohol is sinful, but it is clear that drunkeness is a sin. With that said, I do think that anyone that struggles with alcohol should avoid even a little bit at all costs. That rings true with any sin that one might struggle with.

Now, I don't have a problem with any church that preaches salvation by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ. The article doesn't make it sound like much of a focus is being placed on that, but as I mentioned above, the article is appearing in a very liberal newspaper. I honestly would have been shocked if they had made a positive reference to Jesus. One might conclude that the rapid growth of the church means that it's right on and a good thing. However, just because a church is big doesn't mean it's good. It could be a lot of misled people being told what they want to hear.

Finally, there's the fact that the church is associating itself with the Southern Baptists to take advantage of loans. Since they are associating themselves with the group, I do think they should adhere to the guidelines as stated in the Southern Baptist Convention. My wife and I a currently attending a Southern Baptist church. Our church adheres to the SBC, but I've recently learned that it is up to each Southern Baptist church to decide what (or if) they agree with from the Southern Baptist Convention....but I digress. That is for a completely different discussion.

I was just curious what others thought of the article.
 
I heard a story in church the other day. There was a man who when he was a child his parents used to give him drinks of alcohol until he was drunk. They thought it was funny. By the time he was 9 years old he was an alcoholic. He got saved in his late teens/early 20s. He was hanging out with some people from his church, and they offered him something to drink as his host. He was really excited & said yeah a beer would be great. They kind of looked at him funny, and said we didn't mean that kind of drink, we don't drink alcohol in this house. He was shocked. He started calling as many people as he could think of in the church. No one drank. He called the Pastor, and he didn't drink. This man eventually became an evangalist. He tells this story, and what he says in the end is this. If he had found one person in that church who drank he would be an active alcoholic to this day.

The Bible does not forbid the drinking of alcohol, but it does tell us to not cause a weaker brother to fall into sin. If we set an example that drinking is okay, how many people will become drunk (which is sin)?
 
I always like to start discussions about alcohol with a passage from Proverbs:
Proverbs 31:4-7 said:
It is not for kings, O Lemuel-- not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer, lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights. Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.
Click to expand...

Clearly, if you are in a position of leadership, you are not to drink. However, we are actually encouraged to give alcoholic drinks to those in pain or poverty. So, the next time a homeless man asks for money, don't worry about how he will use it. However irrelevant to the story that may be, it does prove this point-- that all things were put on earth for a purpose, and when God made the earth and all that was in it, He said it was "good".

However, drunkenness is a sin, according to Eph 5:18, 1 Tim 3:8, and Titus 2:3, among other places. (The argument could be made that 1 Tim 3:8 only applies to deacons, to be fair.) Drinking alcohol without going to excess is not; as evidenced in 1 Tim 5:23 among other places. I see no problem with this church providing adult beverages in a context that encourages moderation, as a discussion forum about the arts and current events would dictate. Essentially, what they've created is a coffee house, not a bar.

THAT BEING SAID, this church is completely wrong to affiliate themselves with Southern Baptists, who have a clear, written policy against drinking for any members at any time. If they are providing a place where drinking an adult beverage or two is permitted or encouraged, there are plenty of denominations that would be in favor of this approach with which they could have affiliated.

It is thoughtlessness and lack of respect for others convictions like this that leads to misunderstandings, which lead to much of the animosity between certain denominations.
 
notashamed said:
The Bible does not forbid the drinking of alcohol, but it does tell us to not cause a weaker brother to fall into sin. If we set an example that drinking is okay, how many people will become drunk (which is sin)?
Click to expand...

I'm not sold on this idea yet... it sounds good because it's about drinking, but change the concept and is it truly what you are trying to get across? Take for example we are all or mostly all gamers, we enjoy playing them and each others company in the games, but what if someone sees us playing and wants to be like us so badly that they themselves put the games before God in their life... now did we cause that person to fall into sin?

So I don't feel that drinking shouldn't be okay, but we should not be drinking to the point of losing ones identity, or showing the being drunk is an okay act.
 
I find this very interesting because Tek and I attended this church for a while...we were almost through the membership course when we decided to leave and resume our search for the right church for us. It was a difficult decision because we did really enjoy the services...good music, excellent teaching...and we were sick of going to church after church after church. We had been to over 20 churches at that point. But one particular theological issue and the way they addressed it just didn't sit right with us (we had no idea until we went to maybe the 3rd or 4th membership class).

What I find most interesting is that, after going to that church for several months AND going to 8 out of the 9 membership classes, I had no idea that they had any affiliation with the Southern Baptist Convention. They did point out many times that they are interdenominational and an Acts 29 Church. The church did seem like a unique mix of Baptist + Presbyterian + miscellaneoustrendychurch, but I never would have guessed it had any affiliation with the SBC.

As far as Theology at the Bottleworks, I don't have a problem with the ministry itself...the real issue to me is the money issue, which does seem a little shady. For clarification, they don't actually use the alcohol in church. It's at a separate site where they don't even have a service...they just discuss various social issues as a sort of outreach.

I don't believe that it's on the same level as using drugs to attract non-believers or having Bible studies in "exotic dance" clubs. I am fairly certain that they do not allow drunkeness (or "buzzedness") to occur at these events, though to be fair, I never went to one. I think the idea is to introduce people to Christian "philosophy" in a non-threatening environment to kind of open that door to people who might not be interested in Christianity otherwise (or even know enough about it to really take an informed stance). I think the difference is that all Christian denominations agree that drug abuse and pornography are inherently wrong, while alcohol is not so black-and-white. If you believe alcohol in any amount or any circumstance is sinful, then it makes sense to take issue with this approach. But if you think alcohol can be okay in moderation, I guess I don't see the problem.

Thanks for posting this article. I saw the headline on Sunday but forgot to check it out. Very interesting stuff.
 
I read the OP before I read the link and therefore found it a bit misleading.

It's not like they are including alcohol in an actual church service or even a formal bible study. The article says, "Every month dozens show up at the brewpub to drink beer and talk about issues ranging from racism in St. Louis to modern art controversies to the debate about embryonic stem cell research." It sounds very casual and there is nothing in the article to make one believe that there's a bottle of beer sitting next to an open bible.

That being said, where's the outcry against drinking coming from? Aren't you, as Christians, supposed to follow Christ's example? Didn't Christ drink? Check Luke 7:33-34, not only did he drink (as he compared himself to John the Baptist who didn't), but he was called (by accusers) a drunkard and a glutton.

If you argue that you shouldn't drink because you might get drunk, then following that logic, you should also argue that you shouldn't eat, lest you become a glutton. Food can be just as addicting as alcohol.

Moderation, people. Moderation.
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff;204813 said:
THAT BEING SAID, this church is completely wrong to affiliate themselves with Southern Baptists, who have a clear, written policy against drinking for any members at any time. If they are providing a place where drinking an adult beverage or two is permitted or encouraged, there are plenty of denominations that would be in favor of this approach with which they could have affiliated.
Click to expand...
I think it's easy to get confused here. A good understanding of the Southern Baptist Church is needed. First, the Southern Baptist church is non-creedal, meaning they do NOT have a creed or statement every member is required to adhere to or swear to or whatever. Second, the Baptist Faith and Message, the closest the denomination comes to a creed, doesn't mention alcohol.

Some state conventions may pass position statements or the like; so may the Southern Baptist Convention. It's also fairly common for So. Baptist churches to require the pastors and the elders or deacons to abstain. HOWEVER, individual churches choose their own standards, and individual Southern Baptists make their own choices, as their conscience dictates.

However, if a church chooses to solicit funds from a religious organization, I believe they have an obligation to act in accordance with the organization's beliefs. If they find they cannot do so, they should sever the financial relationship. The fact that the event in question is held off site doesn't change the issue; it's still sponsored, conducted, financed, and promoted by that church.

A separate issue is whether they make a distinction between responsible or irresponsible use of alcohol. I wonder if that is a social issue they ever discuss? It would certainly be thought-provoking, and appropriate.

For myself, I no longer drink alcohol, and haven't for several years, for three reasons. My husband and I both have family members for whom alcohol has taken on too much importance (though no alcoholics are in the family). None of them are active Christians, and quite a few are unsaved. Also, when I was at the Baptist Student Union I always had younger students seeking my advice and opinions, and I didn't want to be an excuse for them to fall into irresponsible drinking. Besides, I was never that impressed by alcohol anyway.

However, many people whom I respect as Christians do use alcohol in moderation.
Dark Virtue said:
he was called (by accusers) a drunkard and a glutton.
Click to expand...
That does not mean he was either. I have been called many things I am not, simply because I know someone who was and was nice to them...and it happened even when said accuser KNEW otherwise. I have observed that it is even more likely to happen when the person is high profile and has an unpopular viewpoint.
 
MaidMirawyn said:
That does not mean he was either. I have been called many things I am not, simply because I know someone who was and was nice to them...and it happened even when said accuser KNEW otherwise. I have observed that it is even more likely to happen when the person is high profile and has an unpopular viewpoint.
Click to expand...

For the record, my post was neither meant to infer, nor imply, that Jesus was a drunkard or glutton...that's why I put "by accusers" in parentheses.
 
Sweet. I love this sort of discussion.

I've read through all the posts, but I haven't read the article. Yet. I plan to print it out at work tomorrow and read it during pauses between calls. (I work on a helpdesk.)

A quick "food for thought" post:

Recent studies claim a piece or two of dark chocolate is good for one's health. Other studies claim that a regular glass of red wine is good for heart health.

People turn to chocolate to deal with stress instead of working through the underlying issue. People turn to alcohol to deal with stress, again, instead of working through the root cause.

Excessive amounts of chocolate leads to obesity, which is unhealthy. Excessive amounts of alcohol leads to liver damage, which is, obviously, also unhealthy.
 
Can someone post the article in the forums, or PM it to me? While I know CGA is work safe, I don't want to place any bets on elsewhere!

Back to what DV said, I completely agree. Moderation is key! As well as following the law -- hence I don't drink! However, once I hit that age I see no reason why I can't have a beer with my dad while watching the game, or drinking a glass of wine with my wife (assuming I'm married by then). Although, I think it's important NOT to drink around those who have 'problems' with it (problems related to excess consumption), as you don't want to be a bad influence on anyone.
 
1 Corinthians 8

1Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge.[a] Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.
4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.


I relate this scripture when it comes to drinking. It would be okay for me to drink as a Christian. There would be nothing wrong with it, but if my drinking would cause my brother to sin, I would rather choose to never drink again.

Alcoholism is around us everywhere. Probably in places we don't even realize. I want those around me to be delivered from that, not kept in bondage. If I drink & an alcoholic sees me & then thinks it's alright, I am responsible.

I think people need to be very careful in the application of this verse because tecnically it could be applied to every little thing we do in life which is beyond what I believe Paul meant when he wrote this. I think it does apply to alcohol, but I will also that this is my own private opinion. I don't think it is wrong for a Christian to drink in moderation, that is their freedom & choice. I choose not to, and this scripture is why.
 
here is the article:

Beer and the Bible
By Tim Townsend
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
Saturday, Jan. 27 2007

In a back room at Schlafly Bottleworks in Maplewood, about 50 people gathered
on a recent Wednesday night to talk rock 'n' roll.

Why are Bob Marley and Kurt Cobain considered by some to be messiahs? When did
rock music lose its edge and become another product manufactured and marketed
by huge conglomerates such as Viacom?

It was a conversation perfectly suited to the setting. Beer-stained wooden
tables and the smell of hops complemented a free-flowing, spirited debate among
hip young people in scruffy beards and T-shirts.

In 2007, this is church.

Theology at the Bottleworks is run by a wildly successful congregation of young
St. Louisans called The Journey. The Schlafly program is part of the church's
outreach ministry. And it works.

Every month dozens show up at the brewpub to drink beer and talk about issues
ranging from racism in St. Louis to modern art controversies to the debate
about embryonic stem cell research. First-timers are invited to check out the
church on Sunday, and Journey leaders say many have. Theology at the
Bottleworks is just one of The Journey's ministries, but it has helped the
church grow from 30 members in late 2002 to 1,300 today.

The Rev. Darrin Patrick, The Journey's founder and lead pastor, says its
nontraditional approach is aimed at those who are not likely to attend church.

"We want to go where people are," he said. "We don't expect them to come to
us."

For nearly two years, the beer ministry has brought new members to the church.
Now it's being called unbiblical. The Journey defines itself as an
interdenominational church, but it has a working relationship with the Missouri
Baptist Convention. That confederation of Baptist churches is the state arm of
the largest Protestant denomination in the country, the theologically and
socially conservative Southern Baptist Convention.

In 2005, The Journey borrowed $200,000 from the Baptist organization to help
buy and renovate a former Catholic church in St. Louis. In December Baptist
leaders began questioning the church's methods of attracting worshippers,
specifically its use of alcohol.

At last year's annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention, members
overwhelmingly reaffirmed their traditional stance on alcohol by passing a
resolution that expressed "our total opposition to the manufacturing,
advertising, distributing, and consuming of alcoholic beverages." Baptists
within the denomination who oppose such a strict view of alcohol use argue that
the Southern Baptist position is based on denominational tradition, not
Scripture.

A different appeal

The Journey is part of what sociologists of religion call the emerging church
movement.

"Emerging congregations offer a radically different style of worship that
appeals to certain kinds of young folks," said Scott L. Thumma of the Hartford
Institute for Religion Research.

The Rev. Bill Edwards, chairman of the Missouri Baptist Convention's church
planting subcommittee, said he had received a number of calls from Missouri
Baptists complaining about The Journey's website, some pages of which depict or
suggest drinking beer and wine. Last month, the organization's executive board
formed a committee to investigate The Journey and assess the Missouri Baptist
Convention's position on the emerging church movement.

Kerry Messer, a member of the Missouri Baptist Convention's executive board,
said that he had attended The Journey's December Theology at the Bottleworks
program and that what he had seen worried him.

"Beer being served as part of a church presentation sends mixed messages to the
community and causes confusion," Messer said. "Had we known about this before
the loan was approved, I would have openly spoken out against a financial
relationship being established."

The Journey, he said, represents "a movement that compromises the positions,
beliefs and doctrines of the Baptist church in order to attract people to
theirs."

Praise for pastor

At the Missouri Baptist Convention's annual meeting in October, the
organization had a very different take on The Journey.

Executive director, the Rev. David Clippard, singled out the church in front of
1,200 Baptist leaders as an ideal model. Clippard noted The Journey's median
age of 29 and its explosive growth, raining praise on Patrick.

Patrick, 36, is a former star high school athlete from Marion, Ill., who found
himself in trouble one week in his junior year at Marion High. The
self-described "party jock" had been bounced from the football team for
drinking, suspended from school for fighting and believed his girlfriend was
pregnant. That's when Patrick turned to Jesus.

At Southwest Baptist University in Bolivar, Mo., Patrick found he had a talent
for talking to people about God. He noticed that members of some crowds —
particularly athletes and artists — who were searching for spirituality didn't
connect with the traditional church structure.

After Patrick received his master's of divinity at Midwest Baptist Seminary in
Kansas City, his church there agreed to pay his salary for three years so
Patrick and his wife, Amie, could start The Journey.

The couple didn't know anyone in St. Louis, so Patrick spent months trawling
open-mike nights in Soulard for musicians and approaching strangers in
coffeehouses to ask if they'd like to come to church in his basement.

By late 2002 they had a core group of 30 members. By the end of 2003, the group
had grown to 120. The congregation had moved to rented space at the Center of
Clayton, then moved again to space at Hanley Road Baptist Church, also in
Clayton. Membership doubled in each of the next three years.

In December 2005, The Journey put down $425,000 to buy Holy Innocents Catholic
Church, west of Tower Grove Park, for $1.65 million, and spent another $500,000
to renovate the interior. Nearly half the down payment came from the Missouri
Baptist Convention loan.

Patrick and his congregation moved into their new church in May and have
already outgrown it. Two packed Sunday morning services are supplemented with a
Sunday evening service back at Hanley Road Baptist Church. Another Sunday
morning service will begin in west St. Louis County next month.

The Journey also starts, or "plants," new churches outside The Journey brand
name. In September it planted the Refuge Church in St. Charles; it is scouting
sites in Illinois.

Sense of belonging

On a recent Sunday, 500 twenty-somethings, dressed in jeans and fleece jackets,
carried Starbucks cups and dog-eared Bibles into The Journey's nave before the
11 a.m. service, greeting each other with hugs and handshakes.

The music of Sufjan Stevens poured through the sound system as church notices
flashed on the big screen above the sanctuary and the four wide-screen plasma
monitors hanging above the pews. As the service began, a six-piece worship band
played a few rousing tunes and then Patrick, dressed in khakis and a brown
sweater, began to preach.

For an hour, Patrick cited Genesis, Proverbs, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians to
drive home his message for this Sunday: Men like risk. Men need to be
challenged, and a "less-than-masculine" church is doing little to challenge
them. Men need to take responsibility for their lives, their families, their
spiritual well-being.

The goal of many pastors in emerging churches is to make Christianity relevant
to young people. In his sermon, Patrick touched on a subject not often broached
from a traditional pulpit, telling married men in his pews, "The hottest sex in
St. Louis should be in your bedroom."

Its leaders' willingness to take on issues that directly relate to their lives
attracts many young people to The Journey.

"Younger people are looking for a sense of belonging," said church member Jason
Froderman, 25.

Patrick said all the Journey campuses were united in one mission: to serve the
poor in the city of St. Louis. That work puts The Journey and the Missouri
Baptist Convention on the same page, according to Patrick.

"We look at the Missouri Baptists as a group that wants to start churches and
help the poor," he said. It was this common mission that led to the $200,000
from the Baptist organization, which Patrick said was an unsolicited loan.

Despite opposition from some Missouri Baptists, Patrick said he would continue
working with the organization.

"When you partner with other people you invite conflict," he said. "But if
we're both going in the same general direction, why not link arms?"
Click to expand...
 
Hmm... interesting....

so what they are saying is that the affiliates (MBC) think that this is wonderful but the affiliates of the affiliates (SBC) think that this is horrible? I'd call it catch .22 regardless of morality.

I think that their efforts are being blessed, seeing as the church is growing. I (personally) think that the issue is that their methods are making other Christians squeemish. But that's just me.
 
No worries TJGuitarz, the link is just to a newpaper's website. It's work safe. Durruck posted the story though, so it's all good.

Thanks for the comments. As I mentioned, I personally have no problem with people drinking alcohol in moderation. My wife and I had a really nice wine with dinner last night.

Thanks for the comments about the church Ember. My wife and I both wondered what it was really like and didn't want to form to much of an opinion based on the St. Louis Post Dispatch article since they're considered to be one of the more liberal papers in the country. I was wondering what the context of the beer was. I wasn't sure if it was in a bible study setting, or if it was in just a casual hangout setting. Honestly, if it's just in a casual hangout environment, then I'm not sure why it got the attention of a local paper. We both agreed that the only way to really form a true opinion was to visit the church a few times, but neither of us really have a desire to cross the river into MO each Sunday (although I do it daily for work).

The examples I made about drugs, etc. were intended kind of tongue in cheek taking it to the extreme. I really doubt that those would occur and I wasn't trying to say that The Journey would do that. However, there are some who actually could take it to that extreme. Our pastor said that through the course of his ministry he's visited lots of churches. He said that you can name him any sin and he can find a church that will somehow manage to justify it. He even gave an example of a supposedly Baptist Christian (obviously not) church that practiced trading spouses. The point of that exmple is kind of to justify how the church truly needs to set itself apart from the world and how the Christian church should influence the world rather than being influenced by the world.

When I was in my early 20s, I heard a youth pastor talk about how through time, the world will evolve and accept things that were once unacceptable. As the world progressed, the church was always close behind. In order to bring sinners into the churches, "offensive" topics such as sin and Hell are being discussed less and less. There are many churches that cater the music to what makes people feel good and happy rather than focusing on bringing true worship to God (an acquaintance of ours bragged how their church was more like a rock concert than church). We recently took the youth from our church to a 3-day conference. At this conference, "sin" was never once mentioned, they talked a lot about how the youth should share their faith....but then they never actually gave a clear presentation of the gospel. There was one alter call at the end of the second service, but it was never really clear what the purpose was for it unless you already knew. Then the rest of the conference was about abstinance, and a huge advertisement for Compassion International and AIDS awareness. Fine topics, but I felt that the focus should have been on Jesus' death and resurrection. Sure they want the kids to share the gospel, but how will youth do that if they don't know what they believe? Apparently not even the adults knew how to share the gospel. There were testimonies given about how the gospel was shared with different people....but the gospel itself was missing.

So with that said, what were the semons at The Journey like? Did they focus on current events, or on salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ?

I think that their efforts are being blessed, seeing as the church is growing. I (personally) think that the issue is that their methods are making other Christians squeemish. But that's just me.
Click to expand...

Sorry to single this out, but that argument is a bit of a pet peeve with me. The Mormon Church and Jehovah's Wittness are all rapidly growing. Neither of those are Christian religions. Islam is also currently rapidly growing, and that is definitely not Christian. Catholic churches are huge, and many of the "TBN" churches are very large. I can't say much about Catholics other than my understanding is that they believe in salvation by works. As far as the "TBN" churches, there have been some crazy blasphemys that have come from the TBN preachers. Just because a church is large or growing quickly does not mean that it is "blessed". Wide is the path to destruction and narrow is the gate to Heaven. I would argue that the churches are large because the people are being told what they want to hear rather than what is correct. Remember that following a bad leader off of a cliff still takes you off of the cliff. We are responsible to know the biblical truth and to follow God's true teachings. Examine what your pastor says in light of scripture and don't follow blindly. Your pastor is an imperfect human just like the rest of us. Christ was the only perfect man, the rest of us sin and make mistakes.

Sorry if I rambled and/or went off topic. ;)
 
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Tolkien said:
The examples I made about drugs, etc. were intended kind of tongue in cheek taking it to the extreme. I really doubt that those would occur and I wasn't trying to say that The Journey would do that. However, there are some who actually could take it to that extreme. Our pastor said that through the course of his ministry he's visited lots of churches. He said that you can name him any sin and he can find a church that will somehow manage to justify it. He even gave an example of a supposedly Baptist Christian (obviously not) church that practiced trading spouses. The point of that exmple is kind of to justify how the church truly needs to set itself apart from the world and how the Christian church should influence the world rather than being influenced by the world.
Click to expand...
When my friend Ishy was starting TechnoChicks, we did a lot of random surfing just to see what other non-mainstream ministries were doing. Some of the stuff we found would shock you...and it was full of justifications. For instance, a couple of websites claimed that Wiccan-style magic could simply replace God of the Bible for Diana, etc. with no problem. It would all be okay. I also came across several sites where the Statement of Belief alone would make you blush. (Yay for image blockers...)

So yeah, whatever you want, you can find a church or ministry justifying it.


And I agree with you on the growth issue. It's just not a reliable indicator. It can mean that the church is speaking to the need in people's hearts...but it can also mean that people have found a way to do what they want and feel fully justified.
 
Drinking alcohol is fine in moderation. Moderation means you do it:
  • without hurting other people
  • without hurting yourself
  • without losing control of yourself
  • in accordance with all applicable laws

Now, if the question is "Can you talk about God while enjoying a beer?" then I would overwhelmingly answer in the affirmative. If the question is "Should the church serve alcohol?" I would answer probably not. If a bunch of buddies from church want to go to a pub and have a friendly discussion about theology or whatever else, then that sounds more than acceptable-- it sounds beneficial. But if a church wants to start serving alcohol in the lobby during service... well, I'd say probably not. I'm pretty averse to the idea of the church selling ANYTHING.
 
I know this isn't "beer", but Jesus did turn water into wine, you know. So it can't be entirely evil... IN MODERATION, of course... that's my 2 cents
 
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