What's the most skill-critical role in a group?

What is the most skill-critical role in a group? (public poll)


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    33

Gilga

New Member
As a healer who sometimes tanks, and as someone who is mystified by the sometimes radical differences in group performance between similarly mixed, similarly geared people, I've been pondering what the real "clutch class" is in groups.

My feeling is that it's The Tank. Here's my argument:

Healer duties:
1) Keep yourself alive
2) Keep everyone else alive
3) Be mana-efficient
While it's not necessarily easy to be a "great" healer because the balance between the three really does require skill to achieve, in most cases you don't need to be fantastic at #3, and if you do decently at #2 you'll end up doing #1, too. Healers can, for the most part, just watch health bars and/or grid without needing too much situational awareness besides making sure you're not standing in fire. If you have a great tank who holds aggro well ... in most encounters the group can be successful even if the healer does marginally well. If the tank doesn't do their job, however, then #1 becomes much harder and thus #2 ... and #3 becomes irrelevant. In theory, a healer should never have to watch KTM ... it only happens when other roles are having trouble.

DPS duties:
1) Keep yourself alive
2) Stay off the top of the KTM ranking
3) Lay on the DPS
4) Manage "side duties" (e.g. crowd control, pets, debuffs, etc)
5) Be mana-efficient
Again, with DPS, there is a big gap between a "good" DPSer and a "great" DPSer. If you're only good, your performance at #3 takes a big hit if you're having to do #4 ... and #5 really is an advanced skill. But so long as you don't do "wipe-seeking" type things like aggro adds with your pet or absolutely neglect sheeping or something, your performace won't wipe a group. And this is another role, if the tank is doing a great job and holding aggro, all 5 things become much easier to do. However, even a Quantamastimic DPSer will be inhibited if the tank isn't keeping threat up because they'll have to avoid pulling aggro. I would say that DPSing is a little bit more skill-dependent than healing, too, because you have to keep track of the active target. So you actually have to be watching the screen and making sure the right mob is targeted as opposed to a healer watching grid while the toon pointed away from the action (I guess, in theory, if you have a great targeter, you can just /assist without actually watching the screen, b ut that is again dependent on someone else..)

Tank Duties:
1) Keep yourself alive
2) Keep aggro of main (if not all) mobs
3) Keep aggro off of healer
4) Keep aggro off of clothies, etc
On one hand, this is the simplest of jobs: all you have to is make sure that the mob(s) are attacking you. BUT to pull that off, it's more than just staying at the top of KTM. It's also having situational awareness of what mobs are where, that no mobs are on the healers or running loose, that no adds are incoming, etc. -- which is something you can't use a mod or have great gear to compensate for. So you really have to aware of the environment around while WHILE ALSO popping a pot if you need to , or holding rage/mana in reserve for "taunt-equivalents", etc. Also, if you're a great tank, you can carry "good" healers and DPS because you doing your job right makes their jobs much simpler.

So that, to me, makes tanks the role where "great skill" makes the biggest difference to a group.

<3 tanks

Now, someone shoot down my arguments and tell me why I'm all wrong...
 
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In Karazhan for the first 4 bosses, healing is most important. For the last 6, DPS is the most important IMO. And for fights like Netherspite and Prince M, team coordination is key, more than an individual role being the most important.
 
for the first 4 bosses, healing is most important. For the last 6, DPS is the most important IMO
That answers "what role is the most important to the fight" but not "which requires the most great skill" as Gilga asked...

I have to think on this more for my answer. Having gone from a "top of the charts healer" to now MainTank on the same toon, I have mixed feelings about this question.
 
Leadership. With a good leader, even the hopeless (like Tebran, FJ and Icthus for not so random example) can do great things. It is also the hardest skill to have and find.

Leader skill > tank, dps or healer skill when talking about group dynamics. Doh, can't vote for it as it is not on the list.
 
I think the most skill-critical role in a group is master looter...alas it also is not on the list.

Without a good master looter the whole team can be let down and discouraged as their hard won loot is given to the wrong person. They are the person intrusted with the most responsiblitly in the group.

Good spelling/typing is not required, but can be an asset when you ask for people to shisper you.

Skills such as speed are an asset when in a long raid to make sure things keep moviing in the instance...very important for the ML to set the pace of the instance!

Without a master looter there can be utter chaos, therefore they are the most important person in the raid.
 
Fair 'nuff ... I guess I should clarify my focus here to be to be 5-man groups and/or trash pulls ... there is enough variation in boss fights that the role really does change from event to event.

And I certainly didn't meant to imply that there is *anything* more important than a group working together. And a strong leader. And common respect and courtesy among people. And working internet connections. Those do all trump gear, skill, class mix, and everything.
 
I think you are on track with the tank being most person behind the toon skill needed. I have played a dps as my main forever, started with my lock and then my rogue and I think we have it the easiest. Keep an eye on aggro and pretty much button mash. Mages have a little extra "work" with keeping sheeps up, the more I play Blinkee in low level instas the more I appreciate mage skills, we got some great ones in guild that make it look easy:) I have played Lara more and more, even being the only healer in BM and shattered halls and even way back when I did some MT healing in MC with her:) I think I am a pretty good healer but Im sure it would of come easier had I played the class more and levelled from 1-70 on it. So I think it takes a lot more skill to heal than stab in the back hehe. Ive played a tank very sparingly, so far pally tanking SM cathedral at 36 is the best I have done and I do think it takes a lot more coordination and paying attention to all that is around you to be a very good tank. And more and more in 70 instas that point is becoming more and more clear. I have had fury warriors tank BM better than prot spec warriors, seen the differences in tanking styles between guys with the same spec and similar gear and watched how easy it was to pull aggro off some tanks and not others even with similar gear so I would have to agree with you on tanking being one of the most skillful position.
 
All need an amazing amount of skill to properly play.

Any nub can bash one button all day long, but that is not necessarily the proper way to play your toon.

DPS:
Nub: w00t, 4 crits in a row for 5k damage each! btw, REZ PLZ
Skilled: Ah, 2 crits in a row, I better wand for a bit, soul shatter is on cooldown

TANK:
Nub: Me hit one target all day long, me good tank. Why healer dead?
Skilled: Oh man, I just lost that add to the healer, I better get my butt back there and pick it back up.

HEALER:
Nub: I can do greater heal all day long on tank. w00t 7.5k crit heal. Why is dps dead and what happened to my mana.
Skilled: DPS needs a sheild renew, hit tank with a Greater heal. Good, things look for for 6 seconds for me to regen mana. Oh, man, AoE damage to all the DPSer, Renew, Renew, Renew, Flash heal offtank. Things look good again, I'm going to wand, Oh no, loose add, I'm going to fade.
 
Avesther, I like how with increased skill, Tanks apparently improve their grammar as well as their in-game performance :p
 
I have a 60 warrior, 60 mage, and 70 druid. All three have been all the way through MC, and poked their heads in bwl. Tanking takes the most skill. DPS is brainless but fun. Healing takes concentration, but it's easy to be a decent healer. Tanking takes my full concentration.

Now, To play a healer well takes some thought. Figuring out when to use different types/ranks of heals at the right time takes skill.

I will say this... Raiding in the different rolls is completely different. When I tank my eyes are glued to KTM, and the boss. When I heal, my eyes are glued to grid. Sometimes I don't even get to see the fight. With my mage, I get to watch the fights and enjoy them. Just glance over at KTM every once in a while.

Having played all three, I really enjoy healing the most. I can play one handed, (All my heals are bound to mouse buttons using clique) leaving the other hand available to hold a Dr. Pepper. I need to find a mouse with like 4 more buttons though... I have more heals and different ranks that I need to bind...
 
Avesther, I like how with increased skill, Tanks apparently improve their grammar as well as their in-game performance :p


Uhm, yes. Can't you just see it: Caveman with club, one thing on mind, terminatory, mentality. And then as they increase in skill, the slowly turn into hero's like Borimor, bravely taking death blows for the group of gnomish hobbts who do nothing to tend to their warriors wounds and lets him die right in front of them. I bet Borimor was thinking to himself "Where is that heal, oh my, where are you healer, you are like at full mana and I'm dieing here."
 
Out of my three favorite classes and their speccs so far I would have to say tanking requires the most management.

DPS is almost always scripted. I have a 40ish mage and hunter and basically all they do is start the same cast when the old one is finished.

Even with a healer it can be the same, although it's spread out to five different targets rather than just one. Also, you have to judge who to heal and at what health.

While I can't exactly describe the process or why it is, I would say that tanking is the most difficult and requires the most micromanagement out of the three. I guess it's because you're on a much more intimate level with the mobs and also with the group. You're more like the central gear, I guess.
 
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I can make a case for DPS being more than just mashing buttons or being rather simple, at least a case for shadow priest DPS lol. There's quite a bit of micro management going on with 6 offensive spells I constantly am using on almost every trash mob, especially if I want to maximize my DPS and be efficient about it, 3 DOTs, 1 channeled, 2 nukes. There's a lot that goes on to DPS well as a shadow priest, but it would take me a while to talk about it all and I don't feel like typing; its late!

Are we basing what is most difficult or requires the most skill based on which role has you doing the most things at once? Everybody presses buttons to perform spells/abilities. Looking at HP bars can be likened to watching KTM. Taunting a mob back or away can be like a rogue waiting to kick only a certain spell being cast, or a healer deciding among those damaged who to heal 1st and what rank heal to use. Everyone always needs to be situationally aware, not just the tank.
 
I have played DPS and Healer classes in raids, Rogue and Priest in MC. ZG, AQ20.

Healing is much more intensive than DPSing, I never had headaches after being in a raid with my rogue, but that was common with my priest.

I haven't tanked, yet, but I have been in instances with bad tanks and I have been able to will us through, meanwhile, when I've been in instances with poor healing we never make it anywhere.

I am biased on this one, but the tank doesn't have to pay attention to nearly as much as the healer and the tank NEVER gets tells from rogues who don't know how to feint (ummmm, heal plz???)

And the tank never gets tells from group members who try to tell you how to do your job (heal the druid!!) Seriously?? You mean I should heal the druid?? Maybe after I keep the tank from dying I will, maybe the druid can back off for a few seconds and heal himself!

I think in the end though, that tanking and healing are definitely the most important and hardest part of any raid or group, except in Black Morass where the DPS is most important and I have yet to be able to PuG that stupid thing since most DPSers stink. Sorry, just the truth as I see it :)

Also, tanks and healers get ALL the blame when there is a wipe, rarely do you hear a mage or rogue speak up and say, "My bad! I just wasn't doing enough damage!"

Anyway, I think you could have an argument for tank or healer from now until the end of WoW, I will always believe that healers barely edge out tanking, but I am biased, so the truth probably is that they are equally tough.
 
I have healed when we raided pre-BC, and I have done both dps and tanking because I am feral now. I have to agree with many of these people, that tanking is the most difficult for me to do, followed by healing, and then dps. I have to say dps is the most fun out of these three though ^^
 
I haven't tanked, yet, but I have been in instances with bad tanks and I have been able to will us through, meanwhile, when I've been in instances with poor healing we never make it anywhere.

This is really what I meant to get at with the thread. Going to Qs' point .. definitely, with every class, there is a skill curve that causes a marked difference between a "n00b" vs. "good" vs. "uber" player. And it goes to exactly the kind of things that you, Avesther, and several others bring up ... micromanagement, multitasking, good tradeoff instincts, situational awareness, etc. I certainly don't mean to discount the importance or skill of DPS .. especially when CC really is the domain of DPS and CC is critical. Overpowered DPS makes everything easier -- shorter fights means less time for anything to go wrong!

But I guess the question in my mind was along these lines:
1) Can a great healer compensate for a tank who is not picking up adds (most decent tanks do ok at holding aggro on the main target ... but the adds are the wipers)? Or compensate for DPS that brings down mobs at a glacial pace (by that I mean very very slowly ... not frost spells...).
2) Can a great tank compensate for a healer who hasn't learned to mix HoTs and Instant Heals (thus runs out of mana too quickly or lets DPS die)? Or compensate for DPS who constantly pull aggro and can't manage to focus fire?
3) Can a great DPSer compensate for healers who never heal anyone but themselves or the main tank, or tanks who let mobs run wild?

My feeling is that a tank who can keep him/herself alive decently and has great situational awarenes CAN keep the group alive by giving the healer enough airspace to keep him/herself from going down and CAN taunt mobs off even the most overenthusiastic DPSer. But a great healer who is getting pounded on by a dungeon mob (even a trash mob) just can't get their job done ... too squishy, interrupts too disruptive, evasion options too limited. And a great DPSer still can't instant-kill mobs in any reasonably high-level dungeon, and can be dropped in a heartbeat by a loose add.
 
Great points!

I've also noticed that the tank tends to be the leader of the 5 man dungeons. He's the one that's at the front of the group when they're fighting but also when they're navigating through the instance. You very rarely see a healer charging forward, and usually when you see a DPS class do it it means trouble for the group. I can testify to this, because I very rarely feel like leading when I'm playing Reuben, and when I do try to lead with my mage I usually end up getting killed because I ran into something unexpected (but hey, that's just me).

Also, I think exactly opposite of Fritz the Grand in terms of group survivability. In most cases, if you have a bad healer and a good tank you'll still make it through. I mean, with a good tank you only have to heal one target, right? Heck, as a healer I'll even put myself on follow to the MT and just press keystroke 1 every once in a while with a good group, because you don't have to do anything else when everything is going smoothly. But with a bad tank and a good healer there's almost no hope of getting through. I've noticed that healing can be downright boring when everything is going well, but with a tank your responsibilities are more urgent.
 
I have indeed been in groups that are "boring" since the tank (Joinyce) was so good and never needed healing. The danger of that is always that sticky fight when your brain has shut down and you almost lose somebody since you aren't REALLY paying attention.

I honestly think that at the end of the day both are equally skill-needed positions to do it well. The one thing though with healing, even just a 5-man group with two pets, you really have to know exactly how your spells are going to work in order to keep everything alive and you not going "oom." Some of this just comes with experience and having a feel for the fight, one thing in the new BC dungeons is aggro control since quite a few bosses wipe aggro and one Renew ticking merrily away at the wrong time can cause your death.

By this I mean know if you need more than a HoT on someone or if a Flash Heal or Greater Heal is needed, etc. The issue when you have to heal yourself while the tank is getting crushed has mostly been resolved with Binding Heal and the Prayer of Mending is just a dream come true to help keep the DPS alive.

Some of this just comes with experience and having a feel for the fight, one thing in the new BC dungeons is aggro control since quite a few bosses wipe aggro and one Renew ticking merrily away at the wrong time can cause your death.


EDIT: While I honestly believe that both are probably the most skill-needed positions, due to my bias I will continue to scream that priests are tougher :D

2nd Edit: One thing also, in larger raids is that there is one (1) main tank meanwhile there are 5 or 6 healers, I have been in raids where only two of use are decent healers and we have had to pick up the slack for the other 4 people. You only needed one good tank for Onyxia while you still needed 5 good healers.
 
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