The impact of overhealing

-Jad- said:
I love that Mod... I have it and Use it!!!! should be a must have for healers.... jk i know Aves doesnt like many mods...:)
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I don't like relying on mods to tell you what to do. Now, lets just draw this out to the most logical conclusion.

  1. Tank A needs a heal.
  2. You start healing Tank A
  3. You notice Tank A has 150% more estimated incoming heals, so you stop
  4. Everybody else with the mod stops for the same reason, and because every healer needs it for raiding, every healer stops
  5. Tank dies because everybody thought everybody else was healing him, I mean the mod said he was going to get 150% more healing then needed, right?
 
not really... If i see that a player is getting heals from the other healers I move to the next... you can actually see the heals land and what the deficit of that healing is gonna be... now in the case of tanks I ignore the over healing rule to a certain point rather over heal him a tad then see him/her get beat up into a plate wearing tube of paste... :)

So basically if I see incooming heals on a DPS player I move to the next one and heal up others saves me time, mana, and in a small way overheals.... but then again if i see a hunter i just pass over him/her too :eek: :)
 
i usually see a deficiency and start throw a heal, but then I stop and do the hokey pokey and turn myself around.
 
-Jad- said:
not really... If i see that a player is getting heals from the other healers I move to the next... you can actually see the heals land and what the deficit of that healing is gonna be... now in the case of tanks I ignore the over healing rule to a certain point rather over heal him a tad then see him/her get beat up into a plate wearing tube of paste... :)

So basically if I see incooming heals on a DPS player I move to the next one and heal up others saves me time, mana, and in a small way overheals.... but then again if i see a hunter i just pass over him/her too :eek: :)
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Only works because very few healers actually use this addon. Make it mandatory, and this will happen. I know because back in the day, CTRaid used to have an emergency monitor that would put the 5 people on your screen that most needed a heal right now. So everybody healed number one on the list so number two would die. Some of use would start healing number two instead of number one and that worked for awhile until those healing person number one started worrying about overhealing. So they moved healing number two. Then those of use with forsense started to heal number three but at that point, people in number 1 started dieing, so we started to heal number one, and so did everybody else.

I'm not pulling this out of theorycraft here, I'm using good ole experience to draw from.
 
I like the idea of assigned healing. I think it would be the most efficient over all until you run into the situation of healing all casters or ranged dps. I believe if I was assigned a tank, my chain heal would take care of him and all the mele dps around him. The only overheal that comes in to play with chainheal is on the tank himself because chain only jumps to people that need it. Role healing should be looked at here as well. I know I've been at the end of my cast time of my heals more than a few times and had someone top them off with their flash heal that takes half the time to cast. I'm consistently in the top of healing done, but probably not one of the more efficient. I believe with role casting, i won't jump over to someone else that I see down in HPs because I would expect the assigned healer to do his job.

There is room for improvement in all our games. Healing, and tanking are going to be in the limelight all the time because without a good performance from either and the raid wipes.

New healers need direction and gentle correction. This is not a job. We pay to play this game for fun. Don't stress people out because they aren't meeting some expectation of how you think they should play. Take the time to help them improve in a way that makes sense to them.
 
Bringeroflight said:
There is room for improvement in all our games. Healing, and tanking are going to be in the limelight all the time because without a good performance from either and the raid wipes.

New healers need direction and gentle correction. This is not a job. We pay to play this game for fun. Don't stress people out because they aren't meeting some expectation of how you think they should play. Take the time to help them improve in a way that makes sense to them.
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You make some good points, but remember that this is raid discussions not general guild. Being in the guild is totally about fun and play whatever you want ;) Being a raider is alot more like a job then it is just playing the game for fun. Playing the game for fun gets you to 5 and 10mans and the lower 25mans. Beyond that if you are not treating it as a job you are not gonna be invited back to the team in general wow (Red is a special case). Blizz made the end game 25 mans very hard and require everyone to be close to perfect, overhealing is a large part in us being ineffective in 25mans so far. Studying, farming for consumables and potions, showing up on time, paying attention are all prerequisite to success and these are much more like job skills then fun skills.

It is not really about what one person thinks is "playing well" it is the collective community of WoW raiders that do the number crunching for raid zones and can tell you exactly what needs to be accomplished to down the bosses. It is close to an exact science and Blizz left very little room for 1 out of the 25 players to just be playing for fun and not taking it very serious.

The truth of the matter is that a massive amount of gamers will never see the end game 25man content because of the nature of the beast. In order to present a challenge to the truly hardcore they had to make these places hardcore. People who only play for fun and don't want to be told how to play their class or take constructive criticism should really look elsewhere in the game for their goals and desires, because end game raiding is not for them.


ps. im not intentionally picking on your post, Bringer, i'm just ranting cause I am frustrated with poor raid performance.
 
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ewoksrule said:
You make some good points, but remember that this is raid discussions not general guild. Being in the guild is totally about fun and play whatever you want ;) Being a raider is alot more like a job then it is just playing the game for fun. Playing the game for fun gets you to 5 and 10mans and the lower 25mans. Beyond that if you are not treating it as a job you are not gonna be invited back to the team in general wow (Red is a special case). Blizz made the end game 25 mans very hard and require everyone to be close to perfect, overhealing is a large part in us being ineffective in 25mans so far. Studying, farming for consumables and potions, showing up on time, paying attention are all prerequisite to success and these are much more like job skills then fun skills.

It is not really about what one person thinks is "playing well" it is the collective community of WoW raiders that do the number crunching for raid zones and can tell you exactly what needs to be accomplished to down the bosses. It is close to an exact science and Blizz left very little room for 1 out of the 25 players to just be playing for fun and not taking it very serious.

The truth of the matter is that a massive amount of gamers will never see the end game 25man content because of the nature of the beast. In order to present a challenge to the truly hardcore they had to make these places hardcore. People who only play for fun and don't want to be told how to play their class or take constructive criticism should really look elsewhere in the game for their goals and desires, because end game raiding is not for them.


ps. im not intentionally picking on your post, Bringer, i'm just ranting cause I am frustrated with poor raid performance.
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/agree
 
I do agree that Redeemed is about fellowship and having fun with each other and doing what we can together. I think that is the great thing about Redeemed, it was founded on the principles of fellowship and lifting each other up.

Alot of what is in this game is easily attainable for us, we do get T4 gear and the badge gear is amazing even the older badge gear is amazing. The flip side of the coin is, when Lee first started the chapter and the first guild, "Gods Peons", it was not about the raiding. Yes we did get into raiding, it was never about the hard core raiding. Blizzard has admitted both directly on the forums and indirectly by dumbing down content, that a good portion of WoWs content is not meant for the casual raider.

This simply means that casual raiding guilds are eventually going to hit a wall. And the only way over that wall is a fundemental change in attitude towards raiding by everybody. Overhealing is one aspect, lack of dps is another, poor tanking, not doing what is required by the encounter (pulling out a thorn or moving out of reign of fire or stuff we haven't even seen yet). It requires everybody to always be looking for how do you squeeze out that last HPS, DPS, TPS what ever it happens to be.

I don't think Redeemed was every thought of as being that guild. We do have a lot of very good and skilled players and even some very good raiders. Getting over that wall requires that everybody be prepared to get better. And some people will say "Hey, woah, wait a minute, I'm not going down that road. Its not fun, its not easy, its too much like work and I don't want to work anymore." Is this wrong? No! Not at all. And nobody who takes this position should be judged for it. This is a game first and foremost. You can not be told that the only way for you to have fun is to do this or that. There is enough people who have come out and said "No" or have mentally said "No" or play as if they are saying "No" that just says that Redeemed is not meant to get over the hurdle. This is not a bad thing there is no shame in it. If Redeemed and its members overwhelmingly say that it wishes to be a casual raiding guild, then it and we must accept that this wall that we have reached possibly can not be breached.

The good news is, in Wrath of the Lich King, Blizzard has said that we will not see progression in the same means any more. All 25 man raids come in 10 man flavours where the gear is a half to full tier different and that in order to progress, the current linear paths are being done away with. And also, doing an instance in a 10 man format does not interfere with you being able to do it in the 25 man flavour or vic versa. This is really exciting and I can hardly wait to see it.

There is though, a black cloud overhanging Redeemed. There are some people who do want to see more of the end game, who have the abilities to do so, the skill and the required mindset. I don't think it should come as a suprise to anybody to see them running Black Temple or Sunwell or MH with another guild or even leave Redeemed to join those other guilds if that is the only way for them to see that content.
 
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Gods_Peon said:
The good news is, in Wrath of the Lich King, Blizzard has said that we will not see progression in the same means any more. All 25 man raids come in 10 man flavours where the gear is a half to full tier different and that in order to progress, the current linear paths are being done away with. And also, doing an instance in a 10 man format does not interfere with you being able to do it in the 25 man flavour or vic versa. This is really exciting and I can hardly wait to see it.
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This is really great news for me. I love the story lines of WoW and like to be able to see all of the content. It is a bit disappointing to know that I will never see a lot of it though. I love WoW but it is much much more important for me to be a good mother and wife. Unfortunately that means that I don't get much play time. I love to raid because I enjoy working with a grp of people as a team to accomplish tough things. I like to improve and be good at playing my class with out the use of many mods. When it all comes down to it I need to put other priorities above WoW. I am glad to see WoW focusing on the "casual" gamer as well as the hardcore one. When it comes down to it we both pay the same $14.99/mth and I am glad that they realize that.
 
Razilena said:
This is really great news for me. I love the story lines of WoW and like to be able to see all of the content. It is a bit disappointing to know that I will never see a lot of it though. I love WoW but it is much much more important for me to be a good mother and wife. Unfortunately that means that I don't get much play time. I love to raid because I enjoy working with a grp of people as a team to accomplish tough things. I like to improve and be good at playing my class with out the use of many mods. When it all comes down to it I need to put other priorities above WoW. I am glad to see WoW focusing on the "casual" gamer as well as the hardcore one. When it comes down to it we both pay the same $14.99/mth and I am glad that they realize that.
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Everyone seems to be thinking that because Blizzard is allowing 10 man groups to do every raid instance that they will be accessable. As a guild we haven't even finished ZA which is one of only 2 10 mans available in this expansion. With this in mind lets say SSC and TK had a 10 man version... we wouldn't be able to finish those either. The difficulty probably won't be lower just the number of players needed. I would love to be able to run through a 10 man version of BT with relative ease just to see the bosses and experience the story but I don't see it happening (I'll cross my fingers). The "hardcore" raiders complain when us "casuals" get to see the same content/loot as they do. The 10 man loot will be inferior but the difficulty will probably be close to the 25 man version.

Upcoming Raid Changes
* Share more in similarity with 5-mans
* Can be played on two levels of difficulties
* 25-mans can be played as 10-mans, with different loot tables
* Both options will be on separate cooldowns
* The possibility is being tossed around that the 10-man versions will be unlocked only after someone from the server has completed that dungeon in the 25-man version. Of course, the 10-man may be unlocked after a given amount of time as well, for those servers where this is not possible.
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Proudfoot said:
Everyone seems to be thinking that because Blizzard is allowing 10 man groups to do every raid instance that they will be accessable. As a guild we haven't even finished ZA which is one of only 2 10 mans available in this expansion. With this in mind lets say SSC and TK had a 10 man version... we wouldn't be able to finish those either. The difficulty probably won't be lower just the number of players needed. I would love to be able to run through a 10 man version of BT with relative ease just to see the bosses and experience the story but I don't see it happening (I'll cross my fingers). The "hardcore" raiders complain when us "casuals" get to see the same content/loot as they do. The 10 man loot will be inferior but the difficulty will probably be close to the 25 man version.
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The thing is, people didn't put the effort into learning ZA as they did Kara. I think there was or is an expectation of success and when it didn't happen immediatley, there was a guild wide putting up the hands in defeat type of attitude. The reason why Kara was successful is that we had a guild wide effort and push to do it, even having upto three teams. People fought to get on the teams, even if it meant wiping on Currator for two hours, and maybe not even getting that boss down at all that week. Maybe time to do the same thing with ZA?

Lukey said:
Healing? Psh. Who does that?
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Official Lukey sighting!!!!

LUKEY!

You a cop yet?
 
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Gods_Peon said:
The thing is, people didn't put the effort into learning ZA as they did Kara. I think there was or is an expectation of success and when it didn't happen immediately, there was a guild wide putting up the hands in defeat type of attitude. The reason why Kara was successful is that we had a guild wide effort and push to do it, even having upto three teams. People fought to get on the teams, even if it meant wiping on Currator for two hours, and maybe not even getting that boss down at all that week. Maybe time to do the same thing with ZA?
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Sounds good to me. Don't we have enough peeps to run Kara (for gearing up new 70's) and ZA at the same time on Tues/Thurs?

Using that sweet site that Gobby posted about, I was able to determine that ZA and SSC are my next grinding instances. I know I push the envelope to run 2 raids a week.

Thoughts?
 
Bringeroflight said:
Sounds good to me. Don't we have enough peeps to run Kara (for gearing up new 70's) and ZA at the same time on Tues/Thurs? QUOTE]



Well Unfortunately this has been talked about and there has been feedback from many ofthe new 70's(coment made in general) that the more higher geared 70's should run kara still to gear everyone up..I have also seen some kara runs that didnt have the higher geared 70's running almost give up because they wiped 4 times on a boss and make the comment that they should wait till they get more higher geared people in to run it...

This leads to the issue of if we devote all those who dont need kara gear to running ZA (Which I am one of those who want to get that on Farm...like yesterday) then we will have peeps upset that the highered geared people have left the others behind... This has happend all 4 times we have tried this... Trust me I am with ya on getting ZA on farm... It has alot of the Challange that Kara now lacks and great gear too. :)
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*Pulls out pitchfork and revs up the tractor*


Here's us. Here's ZA.





Let's GIDDYUP in 'der!
 
Last night we burned down the first four bosses, only wiped once on one boss. Went to the 5th boss, had to do a few dry runs, trying different strats to find something that would give us the best chance of success, then we pwned him hard. And thanks to Heavencent for a quick respec to get Circle of healing, which made that fight so much easier.

Went to peak at the final boss, did a few dry runs, worked out a few bugs and then got him down to 27%, almost to the last and easiest aspect. I say easiest because in a PuG put together by Ill and Chinatown, we took him down in the final phase with just a tank, dps and a healer. So, koodoos to that raid team last night!!!!
 
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