The Bible

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]How is that possible when you claim that the only way to "truly" understand the scriptures is to have the Holy Spirit?

Your need for more understanding can be translated as your need for Jesus Christ. Rationality and reason are sufficient to show that you’re a sinner and are in need of a savior. Just because faith is required to be a Christian, again, does not mean you cannot apply reasoning to its truths and claims contained within its pages and thus build faith. Further, I am not saying that you cannot understand the Scriptures. The truths contained in Scripture are simple and even children can understand them.

Quote[/b] ]Slow down there. I am not questioning the abilities of an all powerful God. I am questioning the EXISTENCE of an all powerful God. This goes back to my discussion of the Exodus. If I were there, wouldn't I be a moron NOT to acknowledge the power of God? Yet the Israelites did that time and time again.

Please show where the Israelites did not ‘acknowledge the power of God.’ That’s just outrageous. You are completely missing the nature of sin and it’s impact not only on the nation of Israel, but the human race as a whole. It might edify you to study the ‘Doctrine of Sin’ for a better understanding as to ‘how the Israelites did it time and time again.’

Quote[/b] ]How do you explain the existence of other religions?

I think that’s even more compelling evidence for the existence of God. The fact that humans in every corner of the world profess faith in a deity leads credibility to the notion that it’s there by design.

Quote[/b] ]
I would be more than happy to answer these questions if I actually knew what you were getting at. Elaborate and I will be more than happy to answer.

I’m simply appealing to your logic and reason to explain those historical facts.

Quote[/b] ]Just because the Bible contains a historical reference does not validate the entirety of the Book, nor does it prove its Divinity. If you're going to grant divinity to the Bible based on a few historical references, then how many other religous works would you have to give the same treatment to?

No other book claims what the Bible does and has the documented, historical references to back it up. Nor is there any other religious book in existence that has the continuity and impact on the human race as the Bible. Every other religion’s leader has one problem. Where’s Buddha, Muhammad, and Krishna? They’re dead, and Jesus is risen. I’ll put my faith in Jesus, thanks.

Quote[/b] ]Logic doesn't always give you the answer you want to hear. If you honestly, truthfully want to know the answer to this question you should really do some research into how the book you call the Bible came into existence. You'd be saddened how politics formed its creation.

You didn’t answer my question. I already know the answer and have spent years studying the doctrine. I’m ready to discuss any time you wish.

Quote[/b] ]How do you explain the inconsistences between the rest of the Gospels?

Again, you didn’t even attempt to answer the question. You’d be the first one in history to document a true error. Sounds like a new thread and I look forward to your evidence. Alleged inconsistencies stem from poor scholarship.

Quote[/b] ]This is a subject in and of itself, but suffice it to say that if the secular references to Christ were that profound then there would be no point in a differential opinion. The truth is the secular references are sorely lacking. And some of the ones that DO exist have been altered to give Christ credence.

I’m sorry, but that’s a copout. The truth is, the references are not sorely lacking, rather the skeptics have to invent fallacious arguments to try and explain away the many secular references. It’s funny there is more historical evidence for Jesus than Julius Caesar and yet people have no problem accepting Caesar’s existence. Caesar’s conquest in Britain is accepted as historical fact with only 1000 manuscripts detailing the conquest in existence. There are over 24,000 gospel manuscripts available, which are the most well documented historical documents available today.

Quote[/b] ]How do you explain the death, burial and resurrection stories that predate that of the Bible?

You didn’t answer my original question. However, please feel free to post your example of ‘death, burial, and resurrection’ stories that predate the gospels so I can show you how different they truly are.  

Quote[/b] ]How do you explain the Akkadian knowledge of our universe that was only affirmed in the 1970's? That's a civilization that existed six THOUSAND years ago that knew how many planets there were in our solar system, their relative size and position to each other, and even their color.

Sitchin’s translations of the cuneiform tablets are suspect at best. He stands alone with no checks and balances and is the self proclaimed expert on Sumerian cuneiform. I find it strange you are so willing to accept his work as hard evidence and in the same breath deny the Bible, which has not only much more scholarship to back its claims up but secular historical documentation as well. It appears you have a double standard.

Quote[/b] ]SEEMINGLY illogical doesn't necessarily mean that it is ILLOGICAL. Was it logical that the church condemed Galileo and Copernicus for asserting that the earth was round which ran contrary to the beliefs of the time? Of course it wasn't. The church, and religion for the most part, has had to constantly play catch up with science, refitting their beliefs and creeds to fit the facts as they surface.

That’s odd, the Bible uses anthropomorphic illustrations to describe many natural occurrences and Isaiah 40 calls the earth a ‘circle.’

If you’re asking me to make excuses for fallible men throughout history, you won’t receive any from me. There are many stellar examples of men doing horrendous activity in the name of Christ. The reality is, they weren’t Christians at all.

Jesus clearly illustrated this fact:

"Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'  (Matt. 7:21-23)

Quote[/b] ]And that is what is so frustrating. Backed into a logical and reasoning corner, the theist throws up his force field of faith. Faith is inpenetrable to any logical discussion because it relies on things that can't be seen or proven. How is rationality supposed to oppose that? The non-theist will always lose in the eyes of the theist because they lack faith and understanding in it. The theist always loses in the eyes of the non-theist because the theist turns his back on logical reasoning and adopts "reasoning" that can't be proven or disproven. Faith is a harbor that is invincible to the storms of logic and reason.

I’ve never turned my back on logic and reasoning, again, logic and reason is what turned me back to Christ. I diligently sought Him and He revealed Himself to me in a powerful way, changing my life forever. Where the impasse occurs is trying to impart to the skeptic an understanding of spiritual matters. Jesus may not be real to you, but to those that are Christians on this board, they know He’s a reality. The frustration happens in trying to convey truths that are assured, promised and sealed by the Holy Spirit and are self evident and manifested in the life of a Christian.

The Holy Spirit indwells each and every believer. This is the proof that you seek, yet will never have without first exercising faith. The Bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God. (Rom. 10:17)

Ultimately, He’s left enough ‘proof’ and it’s whether you are willing to accept it instead of making excuses and explaining it all away as irrational, illogical ravings of religious lunatics. Again, Romans 1 is clear, no one has an excuse for non-belief. He has made Himself evident in His creation. One merely needs to behold his surroundings to logically come to the conclusion that an intelligent designer was responsible for all of this.

In the end, the choice rests on you, not God. He’s not going to force you to love Him. In fact, He loves you so much that He gives you the choice to not love Him. As I’ve already mentioned, God is not in the business of making cold, unfeeling robots. No matter how hard it is for you to understand, the truth is, God chose to give you and I freewill. It’s a perfect picture of a Father’s love in allowing His children to choose their own path through life. I don’t know if you have children or not, and if you do, you should understand the principle immediately. If you do not, think about your relationship with your own parents. Could you imagine your parents making every choice for you? Do you see how unreasonable that truly is? You claim God should have created robots without the freedom of choice. I assume that’s a life you want for yourself? Well, that’s your free choice to make. It still does not change the fact that God created us with freewill, period.

Quote[/b] ]I do not question your belief in Christ or God or the Bible. I question your reasoning that leads you to that conclusion. The reasoning and evidence that is devoid of logic and relies on things that can't be proven.

Now this is a load of rhetoric! I devote a lot of study to the science of textual criticism and hermeneutics. Understanding your view of Jesus would help me tremendously at this point. Who do you say that He is? Please illustrate for me how my belief in Him is devoid of logic.

Quote[/b] ]This is true, however, we haven't gone back far enough. One DOES need education and understanding of how the scriptures came into being and how their divinity was granted.

Well since you are a professing expert on the Doctrine of the Bible, please share with me your understanding of how the Scriptures came into being and how its divinity was granted. I’m truly looking forward to this discussion.

Quote[/b] ]Note that the dictionary definition adds that theology is a rational inquiry into religious questions.

Note the direct translation: ‘Theos’ = God + ‘Logos’ =  rational discourse – In other words, the rational discourse concerning God. By ‘extension’ does it mean anything else.

Quote[/b] ]Is this a "truth" or is this an opinion of your own?

It’s a truth communicated all throughout Scripture. Again, note the true definition of Theology and Theologian. We’re all, as children of God, called to be ‘learned students’ of His word, period.

Quote[/b] ]Again, this is an easy out. You're saying that no non-theist (or basically any opposing view) can hold merit because they are devoid of the Holy Spirit. How can anyone have a dissenting opinion? If someone disagrees with scripture you automatically label them as having diminished capacities.

What I am saying is that an atheist or agnostic rarely has an accurate understanding of what is contained in the Scriptures. Even though you claim to know more than ‘most Christians,’ the few examples where I’ve seen you attempt to exposit Scriptural truth have proven otherwise. A natural consequence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an insatiable hunger for the study of God’s Word. Through His enlightenment, many seemingly obscure truths become abundantly clear.

Quote[/b] ]I lay the same charge in your direction. You aren't willing to acknowledge logic and reason in determining your beliefs. Instead, you rely on Faith, the belief in things unproveable.

I have already stated my beliefs are rooted in logic and reason. I have already told you numerous times that the historical record is what allowed me to deduce the claims in the Bible were true and thus brought me back to Christ and allowed me to truly exercise faith.

Quote[/b] ]And here it is, the crux of the problem. No one can understand the Bible, according to you, if they don't have certain gifts from God. Sorry, but that's an easy out.

First of all, I never said ‘no one can understand the Bible.’ Anyone can understand the truths of the Bible if the desire is there. Paul stated that evidence for God is clearly seen. Even pagans admitted that truth. The point I was making to you was that you have no excuse not to believe. The evidence is clearly seen and everything in the physical creation, including ourselves manifests design and purpose. Therefore, we will all be held to account.

Quote[/b] ]How does a skeptic ackquire a teachable spirit? It's a vicious cycle that will never come to fruition. A skeptic can't learn about God without the Holy Spirit and he can't receive the gift of the Holy Spirit without believing in God. Doesn't this sound just a bit ludicrous?

You are misinterpreting my point. A skeptic can learn about God…you are learning about Him right now, are you not? The Holy Spirit is what seals and assures you of Salvation. A more accurate statement would read, ‘A skeptic cannot be saved without accepting the free gift of Salvation and thereby receiving the Holy Spirit.

"When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth."

In other words, the Holy Spirit will help us understand the Word. I hope this clarifies my position

Quote[/b] ]LOL, this reminds me of WC Fields, "Go away boy, you bother me". You're asking me to seek a being that I don't believe in, to humble myself before a being I don't believe in, to seek a gift from a being that I don't believe in. And you're telling me I can't truly understand this being unless I seek him, believe him and get gifts from him. This is a dog chasing his tail.

And that is your choice to make. However, realize Romans 1 is clear, you have no excuse and will be held accountable for the decision you ultimately make.

Quote[/b] ]HA, I didn't even know what I was going to say, but obviously you did It's nice to know that I can enjoy eternal fellowship with God, but how about a little something in the here and now? Why is Faith necessary to believe in God? Why is it that the majority of men that actually had intimate knowledge of this God chose to deny him? Again, I point to the Israelites during the Exodus. You expect me to have faith in God, so far removed from Him in light of what the Bible says the Israelites did? They had Him right there in front of them and it wasn't good enough for them and you expect it to be good enough for me?

As I’ve mentioned before, you underestimate the power of the sin nature. And you are not so far removed from Him. You have the same opportunity that the Israelites had. In God’s dealings with man after the fall, He has always required us to exercise faith. He required faith from the Israelites and He requires faith from you and I. Again, He is right in front of you, you just choose to overlook the obvious and self-evidence.

Quote[/b] ]The why would an omnimax need to go through all this rigamarole?

As I’ve mentioned before, God saw fit not to explain everything to us. What He has left us is His special revelation, the Bible. In it are all the answers that we need to know in this life. We’ll have all of eternity to learn the rest.

Quote[/b] ]Now that is truly debateable.

No it isn’t. Look at Abraham and Isaac. Consider Isaiah’s prophecy and look at the Psalms as well. Consider what Jesus had to say about the Old Testament:

'You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life.'

After Jesus was raised from the dead, when he was teaching his followers on the road to Emmaus, the Bible says that he:
quoted passages from the writings of Moses and all the prophets, explaining what all the Scriptures said about himself.'

Later he told his followers:
'When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me by Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must all come true.'

Consider the references in Deuteronomy, Samuel, Jeremiah, and so on.

Quote[/b] ]
If you created a perfect car and in production the steering veered to the right and caused accidents would you still consider it perfect? If you created the perfect meal that was pleasing to the palate yet gave you salmonella, would you still consider it perfect? If you had a perfect little child that grew up to be a serial killer that never got caught, would you still consider him perfect? Let's look at some definitions of perfect: Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation. How can you consider Satan to be perfect and yet still choose to rebel against God? That decision alone voids his perfection. Either way, God created satan knowing full well what his decision would be. So God created evil, God sponsored evil, God condoned evil, God NEEDED evil. To say that God couldn't create a perfect being without a blemish kinda nullifies Him being God now doesn't it?

As I have clearly stated, Lucifer was perfect in all his ways UNTIL iniquity was found in Him. To say Satan was created perfect, without defect or blemish, and given a will with a free moral choice in which He ultimately chose to rebel does not negate the fact that he was created perfect. I’m sorry you can’t wrap your mind around this and seem to equate perfection with some kind of eternal/persistent character attribute. You are the one that seems to have a limited understanding of the definition of the word and I can’t understand why you can’t grasp the concept of freewill and how it applies to perfect sinless beings such as humans and angels in their original created state

Again, here are the Scriptures:

Ezek 28:12-17 “You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.”

1. Satan was made perfectly. He had the perfect beauty and was full of wisdom.
2. He was a guardian cherub, the highest position possible in heaven.
3. He was in a perfect sinless environment.
4. One day “wickedness was found in” him.
5. That wickedness led to rebellion and he sinned.
6. Pride was the cause of his sin. His beauty made him vain.
7. He was expelled on earth, to become a “spectacle” before kings.

Isa 14:12-14 “How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

1. Lucifer was banished to earth once he rebelled against God.
2. His sin was pride: he wanted to be like God.

Rev 12:7-9 “And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”

1. Lucifer caused war in heaven.
2. He was not alone in this. Many angels joined his rank.
3. Lucifer and his angels were banished on this world.
4. He led astray “the whole world”.

Quote[/b] ]Now who is limiting God? Why couldn't God create a being with freewill that was loving and feeling to worship Him? You are eager to posit the notion that we are limited in our intelligence and can't understand why God would do the things he does, well I ask you, why couldn't God create His followers in a better manner? If God is truly omnimax, why didn't He realize how grieved He would be at how His creation turned out? So grived in fact that He would choose to wipe out the whole world. Thank God? No, thank Moses for changing his Mind!

Because then the created being would not truly have Freewill now would it? Why is the notion of freewill so hard to understand?

Quote[/b] ]I would be interested in knowing what turned you back to Christianity, and what caused you to leave in the first place. I understand that's personal though.

I rebelled because I wanted to live life my own way and on my terms. In looking back now, I honestly had an insatiable appetite for sin. It felt so good and I was consumed by my desire for pleasure. I didn’t take God seriously and I figured I had all the time in the world and that I’d figure it all out someday. I spent 10 years running from God and eventually my lifestyle caught up with me. I was at the lowest point ever and all I can say was God saved me in my despair. I felt the leading by the Holy Spirit and I made the choice to stop living life for myself and begin living it for Him. I prayed for God to save me that night and my life changed immediately. I’ll be honest in saying it’s been quite a journey. Being a child of God in a world that despises Him and you by association is tough. Enduring attacks from Satan and learning to trust on Him for everything can be hard when you are used to driving alone. Now I find comfort that I’m just a passenger and can rest on His promises that He’ll provide everything that I’ll ever need. Through every storm, I’ve grown closer and enjoyed an even deeper more intimate relationship with Him. Words can’t describe how awesome life walking with Him has been.

I went through a time in my early walk with Christ when I got caught up in the Sitchin movement among others and began to question some of what was contained in the Bible. I had a rough time in those early years, yet I trusted God, and He provided the answers that I sought. Every question I had He answered completely and decisively. The evidence and proof is there, and I found it first hand. I studied both sides of the fence much like you are doing now. There were a couple of late nights where I had to ask myself, Lord could this possibly be? Is this true? And if it were not for His leading and using other Christians to provide wisdom and guidance to keep me on the path, I can only imagine how rough it might have gotten.

All I can say is you have to trust in Him and lean not on your own understanding but His. As I’ve mentioned, every question I ever had was answered. In my own personal quest for truth, I only found facts that strengthened what I believed. I very much viewed it like a game. I know He’s perfect and the nature of His character means His word could only be infallible and inerrant. I leaned on those truths and they are the pillars of my faith today that have withstood every attack there is. I love digging into the historical record because it makes everything that much more real for me. Sure I must exercise faith every day of my life, however, my logic appeals to my senses and my spirit testifies and confirms what I know to be ethical, moral, and spiritual truth. I have my own experiences to draw from on top of what I’ve learned in my research and studies over the years. Yet in the end it all comes down to that impasse called faith.

Quote[/b] ]Please show biblical reference for spending an eternity in Hell. I've already shown this to be a misnomer in previous posts. If you believe differently, I would like to see some biblical proof for this.

Hell is eternal separation from God and refers to the eternal punishment of the wicked:

Matt. 10:28//Luke 12:4-5
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell.

Matt. 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Heb 6:2
of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

2 Thess 1:8,9
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Mark 9:43-8
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
Is. 66:24
"And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Jude 7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Rev. 14:9-11
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Rev. 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev. 20:12-15, 21:8
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire...But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolatersand all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Let's not forget that God also is weary, judges, cries, shouts, hates, fears, is angry, in wrath, in fury, takes vengeance, is
grieved, jealous, promises, threatens, repents, changes his mind, swears, takes oaths, deceives, lies, swears he will not lie, and is a "man of war".

Let’s not forget God’s expressions of anger, hate, judgement, wrath, fury, vengeance, etc are directed towards sin and the sinner, which are clear examples of His holiness and righteousness in that He cannot and will not tolerate sin. Now, the others begin to get ridiculous…you say God lies? That’s completely against His character, and it is impossible for God to lie. Please back this ridiculous statement up with some evidence. I look forward to your scholarship and trust you will apply proper exegesis to the any passage you present.

And how do you know I didn't "truly know" the truth? Shall we also have a discussion on who Lucifer really is? Lucifer is NOT Satan, that's yet another misconception that has taken root in tradition.

When the Holy Spirit comes in contact with you, you’re changed forever. Only you know if you ever had that relationship with God. It’s between you and Him, and I can only look at your fruits and make an assumption, but ultimately you know where you stand with Him.

Heb. 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Shall we have a discussion on Lucifer? Sure! Lucifer is a reasonable translation of the Hebrew word “Helel.” Yes, it’s a Latin word and can be traced to the Vulgate, however, what we have here is a common occurrence in Isaiah’s prophecies which was that he spoke through the divine inspiration of God ‘dualistically.’ We have examples of this all through out the Bible and I point to the Messianic Psalms as other examples of God’s divine hand in dual prophecy. The word does not trace its origin back to Jerome’s Vulgate, rather, it’s origin goes back a full 165 years before to Tertullian (160-240 AD) who also believed Isaiah referred to Satan in that passage. So Tertullian, Augustine, John and Christ were among those that assumed Isaiah’s reference to be Satan. Thus, whether one considers this to be ‘Helel’ or ‘Lucifer’ is irrelevant to the context of Isaiah. The point is there is legitimate use of typology in the Old Testament and Isaiah and Ezekial are examples of this by also referring to Satan in addition to the historical grammatical interpretation of referring to the Kings of Babylon and Tyre.

If you would like a deeper Exegetical interpretation of both passages, I’ll be happy to go into more detail on how these passages could not ONLY be the earthly Kings alone.

How do you know if one has been "saved" then? If you assert that knowledge was never really gained and thus was never "saved" then there would be need for the terms apostate or heretic.

The entire epistle of 1 John was written so you might know that you are saved. There is a perfect litmus test for any Christian to determine whether or not they are saved. My point is that you can ‘know’ whether you were truly saved or not.

Quote[/b] ]That's assuming I choose to beleive in this being, which isn't likely as I have come to embrace reason, forsaking Faith.

I have hope for you since you do not need to forsake one for the other. They compliment each other quite well and you would make one heck of an apologist some day.

Quote[/b] ]Faith does, however, exist outside the realm of logic and reason. I say it is in opposition to logic and reason because do not, can not, validate Faith.

I disagree with you wholeheartedly. I’ll agree that faith can and does stand on its own, however, in my experience, logic and reason were the building blocks of my faith.

Quote[/b] ]Interesting considering that logic and reason are what keep me from believing.

Yet the possibility still remains that they will in the end lead you to belief and unshakable faith as was the case with me.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, people say there is something missing all the time, but you are drawing a HUGE inference to that missing thing being God. Do ALL people say that something is missing? No. Can I even fathom a guess as to the percentage of people that do? No. Are there plenty of people that beleive that NOTHING is missing from their lives? Absolutely. I'm sorry, but that is an absurd notion with absolutely nothing substantial to acknowledge it.

Not an absurd notion at all, rather a very common situation and testimony that is found throughout the Christian church. Every Christian I’ve ever discussed this with has illustrated an emptiness that nothing could fill until they met Jesus Christ. I can apply the averages from the sample group to the general population and accurately state it’s a widespread issue and a result of the human condition resulting from the absence of Christ.

Quote[/b] ]You missed the WHOLE point. I'll break it down again. God is God because He is omnimax. Part of being an omnimax being is being omniscient; knowing all, past, present and future. God should have known that Job would never turn his back on Him. There was absolutely NO need to have Satan torture this man's life. But, God let Satan have his way with him anyway. Why did God feel the need to prove Himself to Satan?

I take it we are to believe that Job is an historic story and not a parable? Jim, in another thread, has asked how we are to know the difference and I pose the same question to you.

You bet. The style of the opening and close of the book certainly conform to other Biblical narratives that are historical (compare Job 1:1 with 1 Sam 1:1 and Lk 1:5). In Ezekiel 14:14, Job is mentioned along with Noah and Daniel, two other figures of history. Finally, James, the Lord's brother, refers to Job as an example of perseverance (Ja 5:11).

As far as God feeling the need to prove Himself to Satan, you have it all wrong and missed the purpose of the book that I outlined in the previous post. The book is a literary masterpiece with many lessons imparted to us by God. Satan again was used to glorify God even through His sin. It’s an amazing picture of God’s power. I absolutely love it.

Quote[/b] ]So you match my wild accusations with equally wild assumptions? Where in the Bible does it say that Satan's purpose was the lead worship in Heaven? Where does it say anything about holding a rank of archangel?

Granted there is no explicit passage and as I said before ‘it is believed,’ we do know He was anointed and ordained as the ‘guardian cherub’ and he covered the throne of God with his wings. He was likely the highest-ranking angel and since the angels constantly worship God (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8), he most likely led the worship. Even Michael the archangel dares not stand up to Satan without the Lord’s help (Jude 9).

Quote[/b] ]Heck no. God made Lucifer and Lucifer created Satan? I would like some Bible verses to back this up please. "Lucifer" only appears once in the Bible and comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate, it does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew text, and refers to the King of Babylon.

See above response on Halel and Lucifer in the Vulgate.

Quote[/b] ]Believe me, there is no oversight whatsoever. Where does one draw the line between cult and church? Is one denomination better than the other? More right than the other? More sacred than the other? How do you know what is what? Do denominations mean anything? Do you need to be a part of one for salvation? I don't expect an answer to this because for every question there will be a different answer depending on which Christian you talk to. It's amazing how many denominations and cults have sprung up from the one unalterable, infallible Word of God. Once you start pointing the figure of which Christian faction is right and which one is wrong, you find yourself on a very slippery slope.

Ultimately, the denomination is meaningless. It is what one does with Jesus Christ. As I said, there will be disagreements of some of the lesser, non foundational doctrines, however, there are some doctrines such as the deity of Christ and the doctrine of Salvation, which no exceptions can be made without denying the essentials of what make us Christians or followers of Jesus.

Quote[/b] ]You speak of one way, one truth, but one way, one truth according to WHO? Just because you think you're right doesn't mean another Christian will agree. You denounce other Christians for being swayed by false doctrines, how do you know you aren't one of them? Now imagine what someone on the outside looking in sees. What are they to make of your religion when its followers can't even keep their beliefs straight?

According to Jesus, He is the way, the truth, and the life and none can come to the Father except by Him, period. Anything that opposes Christ’s teachings is false doctrine and should be treated as such.

Quote[/b] ]I'll look up this denomination and do some research on it. Am I to assume that you believe this denomination to be the most correct? What about other denominations, are they wrong? Or decieved or under some false doctrine? Who sets which doctrine is correct and which is false?

It is my opinion that the SBC gets things pretty close in regard to doctrine and statement of faith, etc. However, there are other denominations that do a fine job as well and in no way am I saying the SBC is perfect either. I firmly believe all denominations have their own ‘proprietary’ issues and no one denomination is perfect. The Bible tells us to test the spirits against the word of God. If a church, pastor, or individual’s teaching conflicts with the word of God, they are guilty of spreading false doctrine and are due for harsh judgement according to God’s word.

Quote[/b] ]Shouldn't He have chosen a more worthwhile people? He should have known they were so wishy washy, right?

And that’s precisely why He chose them. He took the bottom of the barrel and made them His chosen people. God is glorified through our infirmities and weakness and has taken us, infirmities and all, and payed the price for our sin so we could be with Him in paradise forever. Is He not merciful and full of abundant grace!?

Quote[/b] ]NO TANGIBLE PROOF. I'm sorry, but that's what it comes down to. There is nothing to cause me to believe in God. There is no proof out there. There is just some magical warm, fuzzy feeling that you talk of. I don't mean to belittle it, but really, what more is there?

I’m sorry you don’t see the evidence all around you. I can only hope and pray that changes.

Quote[/b] ]Why would man have a hardened heart and have any selfish desires whatsoever after living with Christ on earth?

Because Satan will be loosed again at the end of the millennial reign to deceive the nations before sin is destroyed forever. There is speculation that those who will be deceived will be the humans that made it through the great tribulation and still retained their earthly bodies and were more or less forced to bow in submission to Jesus. The Bible alludes to those that will be forced to come and be taught at the new temple each year and it seems to allude to reluctance. I’ll have to dig the Scriptures out on the matter.

Quote[/b] ]So you're saying that before I can believe I have to be full of Fear? Fear leads to faith? I wish you'd expound on this.

I’m simply saying fear of a holy and righteous God is a healthy characteristic to have. I know that God loves me very much, however, I fear his correction when I sin. I know He hates sin and will punish me for it. It’s a healthy fear that is built on love.

Quote[/b] ]That's definately a thread in and of itself. And what I'm talking about is not a denial in acknowledging the Bible accurately portrays historical events and places. However, it is just as foolish to believe that a handful (and they are a handful) of historical accounts validate the divinity of the Bible.

There’s much more than a handful, more than any other ancient text in existence.

Quote[/b] ]I didn't assert that the existence of multiple denominations invalidates the Bible. If anything it invalidates the Bibles coherance and unity.

Rubbish. You are giving man and his sin nature way too much credit. The problem is not with the Bible’s coherence and unity, rather, the problem exists with man himself. The Bible’s coherence and unity is well documented:

1. Which book claims to be God's revelation to mankind?
2. And which book can back up such a claim?
3. Which book has a universal message?
4. Which book contains the highest moral standard known to man?
5. Which book has the highest conception of God?
6. Which book answers all the "big" questions?
7. Which book can anyone understand?
8. Which book deals with the problems of real life?
9. The Bible is a collection of 66 books, written by about 40 different men who claimed to be inspired, over a time span of 1500 years. These men where from different backgrounds, they lived on different continents, they came from different cultures and socio-economic levels. And in writing on hundreds of controversial subjects (which are still just as controversial today), THEY ALL AGREED! 'Lest anyone think this isn't something marvelous. Find ten people from your local area who have similar educational backgrounds, all speak the same language, and all are from basically the same culture, then separate them and ask them to write their opinion on only one controversial subject, such as the meaning of life. When they have finished, compare the conclusions of these ten writers. Do they agree with each other?'

(Answers to Tough Questions. Josh McDowell and Don Stewart, p. 2)

Quote[/b] ]How do you trust in God's word without believing in God first? How do you believe in God without first believing in His word?

I again refer you to Romans 1. You do not need the word of God to believe in Him. His existence is self-evident and manifested through His creation. This is enough to convict you and it’s enough to point you to His Word, which faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God which leads to confession unto Salvation.

Quote[/b] ]I guess I overlook the fact that you can read pretty much whatever you want to in the scriptures.

I guess I’ll overlook the fact that you haven’t formally studied the doctrines of the Bible and as a result will bend them to fit your own agenda rather than perform a proper exegetical study.

Quote[/b] ]That goes both ways. It's not something that I make a habit of and if I did it, it was unintentional.

Please show me one instance where I have ignored the original context. I’d appreciate it so I can correct it.

Quote[/b] ]If the scriptures were absolute there wouldn't be a need for multiple denominations would there? If things were that clear cut there would be ONE church that was right and all the others would be wrong.

See above post on denominations. There is one Church, period. Denominations or not, we all, as Christians, belong to the body of Christ. He will come and receive us as one body and we will be with Him in eternity as one body. Denominations are a perfect example of different options for different people. From different worship styles to different traditions the glue that holds it all together is Jesus. Those that contradict the Word of God are not a part of that body. You need to look past the denominations and see the larger picture.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Let's try and condense this a little shall we? The information we're discussing in this one thread alone would be enough to keep this board going for months

You, and others, have asserted that nonbelievers can not truly understand the Bible without the aid of the Holy Spirit and divine guidance. How then are we supposed to discuss the Bible with you? According to you, we are at a disadvantage and hold no real understanding of the scriptures. Do we then, in turn, acquiesce and allow you to hold the superiority in all things scriptural? Is it possible for a theist and a nontheist to have the same amount of knowledge and understanding of the Bible without the aid of God?

In regard the the Israelites, let me explain what I meant when I claimed they didn't "acknowledge the power of God". My problem with the Israelites is that they were physically in contact with God yet still doubted Him at every opportunity. If I understand correctly, and please let me know if I am wrong, you assert that it was Sin that kept them doubting? Label it any way you want, but I still have problems with them doubting God within DAYS of witnessing His miracle. I can't imagine them prostrating themselves before this pillar of smoke or fire and not believing that God would feed them or give them water.

As far as historical evidence of the Bible goes, this is really a topic in its own right. Let me work some information together and can discuss it in greater detail in a separate thread.

Regarding biblical inconsistencies. There are many different types of inconsistencies in the Bible, or purported inconsistencies if you wish. Again, this is another topic of its own. If there was incontrivertible proof either way, this discussion would subside, but it contines and grows. You assert that alleged inconsistencies stem from poor scholarship. Why would God allow anything other than perfection in His bible? Why does God allow translation errors and copyist errors to exist?

Regarding the evidence for Caesar/Christ. I daresay there would be much more scrutiny over the evidence of Caesar if he claimed to be the son of God.

Considering the "death, burial, and resurrection" stories that predate the Bible...I was referring to other stories such as Mithras, Attis, Tammuz, Dionysus, Orpheus, Bacchus, Apollo, Osiris and Helios. Please note that I do not contend that these stories are identical. Rather, as I have stated before they show many similarities which were passed down from civilization to civilization, each successive one borrowing ideas from its predecessor and adapting them to their own needs and ends.

Sitchin: I am not an open proponent of Sitchin's and I am readily aware of the problems associated with him. He is not, however, alone in many of his findings and research. Even if you don't buy into any of his theories, there is undeniable proof that one civilization borrows heavily from its predecessor. There are things these ancient civilizations did that we could only dream of doing today and we are astounded at the level of science and technology that they attained. You accuse me of having a double standard. Do not ever, EVER let me get by with this. If I truly have a double standard, by all means call me out and put me in my place. I strive for objectibility though I sometimes fall short of the mark.

I apologize if you thought I was directing the lack of logic and reason at you personally. Sometimes broad strokes are a bit too broad. My reason in doing so was to show the impossibility of leveling scientific reason at Faith. There is no logical structure to Faith. Again, it seems, that nontheists are at a disadvantage here. How do you rationalize the Holy Spirit. No offense, but it seems that to have true understanding you have to have this magical, metaphysical force in your life that can't be proven or substantiated. THAT is what is frustrating. And while you may use logic and reasoning to your advantage, there are many Christians that do not and rely heavily on Faith as it cannot be disproven.

Regarding Jesus...I personally, do not know who this person Jesus is. There is no evidence in my life to show that He is the Son of God. Do I believe that there was a man that walked the earth named Jesus? The evidence is sketchy. It is this lack of evidence that leads me to claim that it is not logical, nor rational to believe in Christ as the son of God, or to believe in God for that matter. But, as you often point out, I do not have the Gift of the Holy Spirit in me, so maybe that's my problem.

I do not, nor have I ever, claimed to be an expert in anything. Please don't put words in my mouth. I do, however, hold dissenting opinions than yours. I would love to discuss the history of the Bible and how this work came to be. But again, that is another thread entirely. Don't worry, I'm keeping track, that makes three.

Regarding theology...I think the problem I had with theology was that it considers itself a logical reasoning of things that can't be proven, the existence of God, etc. This is another instance where you put the nontheist at a disadvantage of not having the Holy Spirit to "decode" information. Yet shortly after you say that ANYONE can understand the truths in the Bible. Unfortunatley, for this to be so, wouldn't I need the Holy Spirit? I really am confused. Can we, nontheists, understand the Bible, on par with Christians, without the aid of the Holy Spirit? Are you stating that we are conciously choosing to ignore facts? Facts are backed with evidence, and personally, I would be the biggest hypocrite of all if there was actual evidence for the existence of God and the divinity of the Bible and I conciously chose to ignore it.

Regarding Satan/Lucifer...first of all, I do not know why you insist on referring to Satan as Lucifer. There is more than enough evidence to indicate that Lucifer was the king of Babylon, a HUMAN. Lucifer isn't even in the original Hebrew, so why is it even in the Bible? To your dismay, I'm sure, I still contend that a being that is perfect cannot succumb to pride. Yes, I understand there is the issue of Free Will involved, but if this being was truly perfect, imperfection would not have appeared in his character. Are you asserting that he was only PHYSICALLY perfect? Knowing right from wrong and choosing not to do evil doesn't negate free will. (You covered the Lucifer topic at a later point and this will be shown later in my response as well...apologies for any confusion)

Thank you for sharing your background with me, I know it's not always easy to be so personal. Many stories, like yours, involves describing being away from God as the lowest of the low points in life and only upon returning to God was your life made better. How do you describe those of us that feel the opposite. Are we under some delusion? You described comfort at being able to sit back and let God do all the work. I, and people like me, find comfort in being free of the burden that a faith system places on you. Which do you believe is harder, to be a theist or to be a nontheist? Or is truly different for each individual? You ask me to do the impossible, to put my trust in a being that I don't believe exists. And if He does exist, I have many problems with His seemingly human faults.

Regarding Hell...I'm not sure if I posted this before, but it sums up my understanding nicely. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/hell.html

Lucifer pt. 2...In your attemts to link Lucifer to Satan, you use the terms ASSUME and BELIEVED. Your argument is far from solid and is rather an opinion. Theologians here are split on this reference. Again, more frustration for the nontheist, how are we supposed to critique things in the Bible that are in so much contention among believers? Acknowledging your reference to Tertullian, I have to again ask, why was the Latin word LUCIFER allowed to be added to the Bible? I thought things weren't supposed to be added or subtracted from the word of God.

Logic/Faith/Reason...this is a toughy. I honestly don't know how scientific theory (logic and and reason) can lead someone to the antithesis of logic and evidence: Faith. Kudos to you for figuring that one out.

Job...two issues here. One is that Job actually happened. Again, another tough issue where theologians disagree. As an outsider looking in, who do you believe when one theologian says every story in the bible is literal and one says the bible contains storys that are figurative? My estimation of Christianity would be significantly higher if there wasn't any infighting. Second, I'm sure I do have the purpose of Job mixed up. I understand there is some higher purpose here, but why was it necessary for God to take a bet with Satan? Satan is a crafty devil isn't he? (no pun intended) If made a bet with God and He accepted, I would automatically know I'm wrong...wouldn't Satan have? I still don't believe there was any reason to test Job, God knew what was in his heart. Are you asserting that this whole thing was allowed to happen because it would make a good story for the Bible and people could learn things about it?

Denominations...YOU say they are meaningless but I disagree wholeheartedly. If they were meaningless why has there been vicious infighting between denominations? To this day there is bad blood between protestants and Catholics. Look at Bybloshex, he is so disgusted with Catholicism that he believes they aren't Christian. If denominations don't matter, are all denominations correct? Are there denominations (quirky cults aside) that are incorrect? Are there followers of Christ that won't see His kingdom because of denominational error? And what about Catholicism, they even have a different canon. Are they wrong? Again, it's frustrating for an outsider to see all these followers of Christ going at each others' throats.

"I guess I’ll overlook the fact that you haven’t formally studied the doctrines of the Bible and as a result will bend them to fit your own agenda rather than perform a proper exegetical study." Nontheists are alone in this problem. Christians do this all the time...remember when the Bible was used to condone the slavery in the South?

WHEW, that was a lot. I appreciate the time and effort you took to reply, I mean that.

If I have overlooked anything, please don't think it was intentional. I will be more than happy to go into further discussions on any topic. Most of them will require a thread to themselves though

Again, thank you for your response.

 

[ByblosHex]

Dark, look int he gospels and how differently Jesus and the pharisees interpreted the scriptures. Without God's spirit everything looks different, not because Jesus was way smarten then the pharisees but because they didnt have God's spirit inside of them.

If someone uses the bible foe vil they are not a Christian, for a christian is one who has laid down their life to Christ and by using the bible for evil you could not have God's spirit inside of you.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I contend it's a vicious cycle.

You say I can't understand the Bible because I don't have the Holy Spirit in me and I don't have the Holy Spirit in me because I am doing "evil".

 

[ByblosHex]

No. Humans are evil with or without the holy spirit, But without the spirit your desire to do evil is much stronger then your desire to do good. If the holy spirit enters you, the desire to do good will overpower the desire to do bad.

You cannot understand because there are no words to describe the feeling of knowing God is within you.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Again, I contend that nontheists are beyond understanding because there is no logical, reasonable evidence to support your claim.

Is there evidence to support your claim that those of us without religion harbor more evil than those without? Sorry, but I totally disagree. What you are saying is that I have a much larger degree of evil in me than I do good. And so does every other person not harboring the Holy Spirit. According to you, having the Holy Spirit overrides any desire to do evil...then why do you still sin?

 

[ByblosHex]

I didnt say it overides any desire to do sin. Show me where I said that?

I said it increses the desire to do good and fight sin. Before the holy spirit entered me I would sin without a care, now I remorse when the sin takes over me.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Wow, this thread is huge.

 

[ByblosHex]

This page is huge! It takes about 3 seconds to croll down at full speed!

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]I didnt say it overides any desire to do sin. Show me where I said that?

This is what you said, "If the holy spirit enters you, the desire to do good will overpower the desire to do bad."

So, according to you, if you have the Holy Spirit you the desire to do good overpowers the desire to do bad.  Which means the desire to do good wins out.  Now if the desire to do good wins out, then why do you still do evil/sin?

Quote[/b] ]Before the holy spirit entered me I would sin without a care, now I remorse when the sin takes over me.

Now listen very carefully...look at what you just said.  According to your sentence the only difference between having the Holy Spirit and not having it is that now when you sin, you have remorse.  So much for overcoming the desire to do evil, you just feel bad about it now.

 

[ByblosHex]

It does, but not always. SOmetimes you can ignore the spirit and do bad anyway, which i hate.

No, I no longer desire to sin. before I sisnt care about it, now I struggle not to and if I fail I feel like i have messed up.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]It does, but not always. SOmetimes you can ignore the spirit and do bad anyway, which i hate.

EH? So what's the point of having the Holy Spirit? We all struggle with good and evil within ourselves, theists and nontheists alike.

Quote[/b] ]No, I no longer desire to sin. before I sisnt care about it, now I struggle not to and if I fail I feel like i have messed up.

Be very, VERY careful about your wording. You said you now no longer desire to sin. That would infer that you no longer sin, and if you did sin, it's because you want to. Other people go through the same battles, it's called maturity.

 

[ByblosHex]

I know plenty of poeple who mastubate and dont care.
You canot do this if the spirit is within. Because it is sin and God will give you remorse for your sin.

I do sin, but I dont want to. How hard is that for you to grasp?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (ByblosHex @ Sep. 29 2004,1:42)]I know plenty of poeple who mastubate and dont care.
You canot do this if the spirit is within. Because it is sin and God will give you remorse for your sin.

I do sin, but I dont want to. How hard is that for you to grasp?

It's not hard to grasp when you can actually say what you mean.

Now, according to you, the only thing you get from having the Holy Spirit in you is the ability to recognize your sin as something bad.

And just so you know, there are plenty of people that do the wrong thing and feel bad about it, it has nothing to do with spirituality. It's called guilt, remorse and morality.

 

[ByblosHex]

And the spirit tells you right form wrong so you feel guilt when you are supposed to.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Sorry to break it to you, but there are plenty of people that know the difference between right and wrong without any aid of the Holy Spirit.

I think the Holy Spirit has a lot more to offer than just giving you a guilt trip.

 

[ByblosHex]

THe holy spirit helps me understand. The Holy spirit is Gods own presence inside of me. Reminding me every dya that I am a sinner and by God's grace I am forgivin and have the promise of eternal life, Its location doesnt concern me.

 

[Dark Virtue]

The Holy Spirit HELPS you understand, it doesn't do all the understanding for you.

It seems a LOT of things don't concern you, yet they SHOULD.

 

[ByblosHex]

No they shouldnt concern me ... He is the father I am the son I do as he asks and he rewards and loves me.

 

[Dark Virtue]

The problem is you do not KNOW what God asks because you haven't read the Bible!