suffering?

Shyfroggy

Shyfroggy

Member
I have a question - do you think God allows suffering and pain in an attempt to make us perfect? or strive to get us as close to perfect as He is?
 
Interesting question ShyFroggy.

Well I do agree with Gen, I must also say that: (Be prepared, no idea how long this is gonna be. :D )

Suffering exists because we live in a fallen world. God allows suffering because He set up the rules and even though, as God, He doe snot HAVE to follow them, He still stays within the boundries He set.

God does not allow us to suffer to try and make us perfect. That is impossible. We are sinful and therefore very unperfect. Only through Jesus Blood can we be made perfect.
Check out Isaiah 64:6 and James chapter 1.

If you have any more questions after reading. be sure and post so I can respond. :D
 
God chastises those whom he loves.

I also believe that God allows evil, sin, and suffering to exist so that we have something to compare good, holiness, and joy to. If there were no hate in the world, how could we know how much our Father loves us?
 
Ok I understand that we are all unclean, and that Jesus's blood washed away my sins....I understand that sometimes the lesson He is trying to teach us is one of perserverance...I understand that wisdom from Him comes in 'sticking it out' even when times are tough....

what prompted my question was something I recently read in Hebrews....

"God is the One who made all things, and all things are for his glory. He wanted to have many children share his glory, so he made the One who leads people to salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10

He made the One who leads us to salvation perfect through suffering...now, granted none of us are 'the One' ... it kind of got me thinking - got me thinking how God made Jesus perfect through suffering....and after reading that the first question that came to my mind was - 'is the suffering in our life meant to perfect us, to some small degree'?

Now while my goal is not to become Jesus, my goal is to become like Jesus. To experience His heart, His word, and ultimately treat others how Jesus has treated me -- I know, I have much work to do to perfect this way of living...as I am human, and humans fall short every now and then. But if my goal is to become like Jesus, would not my suffering be part of God's plan to allow me to experience (on a very minute scale) the suffering that made Jesus perfect? If my goal is to become like Jesus, is my goal not to become perfect --- I know I may never come close to the perfection of Jesus----anyways.........just some thoughts that I've been pondering.....

so that was my thought - perfection through suffering and trying to become more like Jesus.

???
 
John 17:16 They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.

As Christians the world rejects us.... Suffering, from an imperfect body, or suffering from a world turned against you.. is. . . imminent...

There are quite a few verses relating suffering to our walk with Christ. Romans 5:3 Romans 8:17 Philippians 1:29

~~~
side note: I personally have been taught that what we percieve as suffering can often be a blessing. One instance I can recall having a sickness, with no insurance, and no money. The doctor paid for all my meds, and visits. At the end of the day, he didn't understand why he had done it. That's when I had the chance to witness to him. While I was concerned with my suffering, God was answering a prayer for him to use me. The concept of what we percieve an act of suffering, really may not be suffering at all, if you know God has total control.
 
I will speak plainly here since you are all Christians..

We are PERFECT in Christ Jesus our Lord!

What did we recieve when we repented and turned to Christ for forgivness and the sprinkling of blood?

We recieved HIS Holy, Righteous, Just, Humble, Loving, Serving, Faithful, Merciful, All knowing, All seeing, All being, All encompassing LIFE!

His Life is PERFECT! Nothing missing and nothing taken away!

The perfect Life of GOD ALLMIGHTY indwelling US by the power of His Holy Spirit!

Dun let the enemy condemn you!
Take EVERY thought captive to the obedience of Jesus Christ, our LORD!

The enemy shall NOT rule over us! For we are more than conquerers through HIM, who loved us!

As for not "living" up to the high standards of God's Righteous LAW?
We are not MEANT to Live this Life!
JESUS IS THE LIFE!
There is Life in NOOO other!

And He Lives in you!

Blessings! Eternal BLESSINGS in Christ Jesus our Lord :)
 
Two quick thoughts:

#1
Suffering in life is inevitable. The difference between suffering as a Christian performing the will of God and suffering as a Christian or non-Christian refusing His call is simple: Suffering while performing the will of God has a purpose. Suffering without purpose is far worse than suffering with purpose.

#2
Some of the most faithful, noble, and excellent men and women of God--Jesus included--suffered even though they did the right thing. Jesus was perfect, the Messiah, and the son of God, yet he had to take on the weight of humanity's sin at the cross (which, I believe, was infinitely more severe than the physical suffering).

God chose Moses to lead Israel, yet Moses had to contend with a cantankerous people. Moses wandered in the wilderness for 40 years and did not see the promised land.

David was "a man after God's own heart," yet God did not grant David the foremost desire of his heart: to build a temple. God instead gave that task to Solomon.

Joseph was a righteous man, but he had to spend years in slavery and jail before ascending to his position as second-in-command of Egypt.

Paul was arguably the greatest teacher ever, but was imprisoned and beaten on several occasions.


My point is this: Regarding suffering as a sign of God's pleasure or displeasure is a flawed perspective. The idea that we will never suffer if we do everything right is refuted time and time again throughout the Bible.

As stated earlier, suffering is inevitable. We can sometimes limit our suffering, but we can not eliminate it. We choose whether our suffering will be an opportunity for correction and improvement or rebellion.
 
Tek7 said:
We choose whether our suffering will be an opportunity for correction and improvement or rebellion.
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I think that's the key. I know this may sound odd, but if we are to really accept that satan is unable to create ANYTHING, but only pervert what God has already created, then we have to conclude that 'suffering' was actually created by God with an actual good purpose, and is allowed by Him because His will (which is always for GOOD) is accomplished thereby. Now, I tend to think (as others have expressed) that suffering would not have been 'needed' if man was not sinful - in other words, our sinful nature requires suffering as the only 'solution' to certain problems created by that sin. Exactly WHAT those problems are and how suffering 'solves' them, I don't know, and I think we're asking for trouble if we insist that God always reveal to us the 'good' that is accomplished through our trials. We just have to trust, according to God's nature that we understand as believers, that He will use our suffering to accomplish His will.

Paul
 
Acts 5:41
The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

Romans 5:3
Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;

2 Timothy 1:8
So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God,

2 Timothy 1:12
That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

Hebrews 2:10
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

1 Peter 4:12
Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you.

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
 
Zeena, those verses were talking about religious persecution.
However, I think we should welcome suffering as it is a means of sanctification.
 
Yes we should ShyFroggy!

And not only so, but REJOYCE in it as well! :)
Knowing all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called by His name.. And that He who started a good work in us will complete it :D

Jesus endured much suffering at the hands of evil men..
 
Yes, love permits pain to occur.

Where would our faith be if not for the trials that test it; or patience, without anything to endure or experience and without tribulations to develop it?
 
Jeshurun said:
Yes, love permits pain to occur.

Where would our faith be if not for the trials that test it; or patience, without anything to endure or experience and without tribulations to develop it?
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I forgot to say that there are three areas of pain.

1.Physical pain
2.Emotional pain
3.Spiritual pain.
 
We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.(Acts 14:22)

It is through suffering that we learn obedience and obedience leads to righteousness. See Romans 6:16.

Like wheat that needs to be crushed before becoming bread we to must suffer in order that we may be a blessing to the world.

As I renew my mind in the word of God and then in prayer, a change for the betterment of myself begins and yes I will experience the suffering of my decision to do what is right but it is out of obedience to God. I must go through it for it is the right way, God's way and in my heart I know that near the end I will be a golden trophy to the glory of God.

Frederick William Robertson once said the following---
"If you aspire to be a person of consolation, if you want you want to share the priestly gift of sympathy, if you desire to go beyond giving commonplace comfort to a heart that is tempted, and if you long to go through the daily exchanges of life with the kind of tact that never inflicts pain, then you must be prepared to pay the price for a costly education---for like Christ, you must suffer."

Hebrews 5:7-10 says "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear.
Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered;
and being made perfect he became the source of eternal life to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek."

My final thought for now on this topic comes from Isaiah 53:5 which says the following--- "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed."

Look at what he did for us. He truly is our prime example when it comes to obedience and suffering. My God I love him.
 
Well I've gathered much from what you have shared....and to continue this discussion I have another question ---

based on Hebrews 2:10

"God is the One who made all things, and all things are for his glory. He wanted to have many children share his glory, so he made the One who leads people to salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10


I have a question --
Why did Jesus have to be made perfect?
 
Shyfroggy said:
Well I've gathered much from what you have shared....and to continue this discussion I have another question ---

based on Hebrews 2:10

"God is the One who made all things, and all things are for his glory. He wanted to have many children share his glory, so he made the One who leads people to salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10

I have a question --
Why did Jesus have to be made perfect?
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The reason He had to be made perfect was for maturity..

For it it writen;

Hebrews 7:28
For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

1 Timothy 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
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He appeared in a body..prepared by God the Father for His Son..

Hebrews 10:5
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
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Finding Himself in a body He humbled Himself before His Father..

Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!
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He grew in stature from Glory to Glory, as we, in the Lord Jesus Christ..

Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
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This was His attitude towards His Father during those days..And always..

2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
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John 7:14-16
14Not until halfway through the Feast did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. 15The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?"
16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.

Matthew 10:20
for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

Mark 14:36
"Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
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Matthew 25:34
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Luke 22:28-30
28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 24:49
I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Luke 12:32
"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.
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My point in ordering the scriptures thus would be to point out the fact that, although perfect (forever in Christ), we, as Christians are in process of BEING made perfect until the day we die.. Tis the very Life of Jesus we experience as we die to sin and live to the Lord, that Father of Lights :)


Hebrews 10
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more." 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
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Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
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Hope this explains your question thoroughly...?
 
Well in Exodus 12:5 says "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old; you shall take it from the sheep or from the goats."

All OT sacrifices point forward to and are a type of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The Word perfect also has these 2 meanings "complete" or "finished".
It is used for the ritually clean victim of sacrifice and for uprightness of charactor.
It is applied to the Law, and to God Himself.

God is a Holy God and perfect in everyway and He would have nothing less then perfect to be sacrificed to atone for sin.
There is life in the blood and through our Lords blood we are redeemed.
Jesus Christ's blood covers our sins and this is the atonement of perfection which God had to have.

Hebrews 9 is a very good read and the answer to your question is there.

In Hebrews 9:11-14 says "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent ( not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God."

Well thats all for now I gotta go to bed perhaps more at another time.
God Bless Shyfroggy.:)
 
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