Reality?

[Dark Virtue]

Well that dashes my impressions of you then. Most modern thinkers (being actually post-modern in philosophy) have a huge problem with the entire thing. Now modernists, yes, would agree with everything up until the last clause.

You will find that I am not that easy to pigeonhole

By the fact that all of this reality was begun by said being, and maintains its existence by the power of that being.

I cringe at your choice of words.

Fact. Reality. Existence.

How, exactly, do they point to a supernatural being that exists outside the realm of the natural, observable and testable.

Maybe your definitions of those words are simply unknown to me.

Here are mine:

FACT: the quality of being actual
REALITY: the totality of real things and events
EXISTENCE: the state or fact of having being especially independently of human consciousness and as contrasted with nonexistence; continued or repeated manifestation

 

[Azzie]

Personally I think reality, fact, and existence are all subjective and every person's own opinion.
The distinction between those three words, then, are simply categories by which we place data which we perceive, real or not. What one person perceives, anothers' perception may be completely different...
"One man's junk is another man's treasure, one man's heaven is another man's hell, one man's reality is another man's fantasy..."

 

[Berean Todd]

How, exactly, do they point to a supernatural being that exists outside the realm of the natural, observable and testable.

In my humble opinion the natural, observable and testable points to the Creator plainly. I suggest a book to you, titled "In 6 Days", which contains papers written by 50 different highly degreed and awarded scientists explaining from their field of expertise why they have been led to believe and embrace Creationism.

Maybe your definitions of those words are simply unknown to me.

Here are mine:

FACT: the quality of being actual
REALITY: the totality of real things and events
EXISTENCE: the state or fact of having being especially independently of human consciousness and as contrasted with nonexistence; continued or repeated manifestation

At face value I think I'm ok with your definitions there, especially alongside my definition given of truth.

 

[Berean Todd]

Personally I think reality, fact, and existence are all subjective and every person's own opinion.

See and I take great issue with that. Realize that the statement you just made would be loved by every post-modern and relativist thinker out there, and I would have to then say ... well why follow Christianity. Because the idea you are espousing is that all religions are equally valid, because truth is relative.

But that's not what the God of the Bible proposes or teaches. There IS ultimate truth, and it IS knowable.

"One man's junk is another man's treasure, one man's heaven is another man's hell, one man's reality is another man's fantasy..."

I thought you were a Christian Azzie ... because if so that which you just expressed is an estremely UNChristian viewpoint.

 

[Goose62]

Sorry, I didn't make an assumption, I made an inference based of previous posts.

AKA - To assume.

You're taking my reference out of context. I was referring to a time when it was essentially against the law to question the status quo.

No, I'm not, i just re-typed what you already did. You said we'd still be in caves if everyone had my outlook, then you said my answer could be right in your next paragraph - how is that taken out of context, how can you take it any other way?

Yes, we have finite minds, but that doesn't mean we can't ponder infinite questions, which is what your post was inferring. If you meant something different, please clarify.

No, that wasn't what my post was inferring. We can ponder all we want on any question in the universe. Just because the answer is impossible, doesn't mean we can't ponder it. I meant exactly what I typed in my post, see if this is more clear: Our human minds cannot conceive 100% fact what reality is. You might think you know that this rock in front of you is reality, but in fact, your brain is just picking up your optical sensory from your eyes telling your brain you see a rock.

Science has EVERYTHING to do with reality, whether it be a physical science or a philosophical one. Therefore my comparison is spot on.

Would you mind explaining why you feel this is so?

 

[Shyfroggy]

Ok, I am going to twist this thread a little bit.....




.......you've been warned......






I would like for everybody to step away(for a brief moment) from what reality is....and answer a question for me.....




.....your answers will be your opinions.......





........we aren't here to judge, but to DISCUSS things..........






So here is the twist - what is reality to YOU? That's right I would like for everybody to post what their reality is in their own life.....once I get some replys, I'll show you all where I am going with this......




REMEMBER - we aren't here to comment on everybody elses reality - we are here to say what reality is to us and then see where Shyfroggy is getting with allt his.......

 

[Azzie]

My dear Haddon...you'll notice I never used the word "truth" in my post, and I did so in order that I can explain here

Reality (not truth) to me is whatever I want it to be, and in my opinion it is that way for anyone else. I chose Christianity. Reasons? That's another thread.

Proof itself is subjective, while reasoning is the most consistent and accepted to date, which is why I use it. But even so, in all science and technology I'll agree with Beren in the idea that we're just picking up optical senses. That includes the words that are being read right now, so as I said in another post I only use my senses and brain waves as tools.

Truth, then, is absolute, whatever it may be (I have my beliefs on what it is, but that is only my opinion so I will not say them yet). How then, are we supposed to determine the absolute with the subjective?
I'm not arguing infinite vs finite, I'm arguing absolute vs subjective.

The problem about Truth is not that it is subjective, but rather it is AMBIGUOUS.
Each person's map of reality is subjective, but the Truth that binds all is ambiguous.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Personally I think reality, fact, and existence are all subjective and every person's own opinion.
The distinction between those three words, then, are simply categories by which we place data which we perceive, real or not. What one person perceives, anothers' perception may be completely different...
"One man's junk is another man's treasure, one man's heaven is another man's hell, one man's reality is another man's fantasy..."

I agree with you...sorta.

I believe that one's perception of reality can be very subjective.

But I believe that fact, and existence since it depends on fact, are not subjective, but objective. A fact is a fact. I may not like it, but my feelings or perceptions of it can't change it.

 

[Dark Virtue]

In my humble opinion the natural, observable and testable points to the Creator plainly. I suggest a book to you, titled "In 6 Days", which contains papers written by 50 different highly degreed and awarded scientists explaining from their field of expertise why they have been led to believe and embrace Creationism.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check it out.

Without reading it though, I would have to challenge you on your use of the word "plainly". If it were that plain and simple, there wouldn't be any need for discussion. Correct?

 

[Dark Virtue]

See and I take great issue with that. Realize that the statement you just made would be loved by every post-modern and relativist thinker out there, and I would have to then say ... well why follow Christianity. Because the idea you are espousing is that all religions are equally valid, because truth is relative.

Why do you believe that Christianity isn't on the same level as all other religions?

And as you answer, realize that the answers you give could be just as easily given by a follower of another religion. Replace God with Allah, Jesus with Buddah, etc.

But that's not what the God of the Bible proposes or teaches. There IS ultimate truth, and it IS knowable.

Now I am the one that has an issue to take. That is a very large claim that cannot be justified. This ultimate truth is only knowable after death. There is no "truth" you can find here on this mortal plane. If you believe you have found it, I suggest you examine the definition of truth.

 

[Dark Virtue]

AKA - To assume.

No, now you're just being stubborn.

Infer, to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises

No, I'm not, i just re-typed what you already did. You said we'd still be in caves if everyone had my outlook, then you said my answer could be right in your next paragraph - how is that taken out of context, how can you take it any other way?

I'm sorry, I don't know how much clearer to make it.

No, that wasn't what my post was inferring. We can ponder all we want on any question in the universe. Just because the answer is impossible, doesn't mean we can't ponder it. I meant exactly what I typed in my post, see if this is more clear: Our human minds cannot conceive 100% fact what reality is. You might think you know that this rock in front of you is reality, but in fact, your brain is just picking up your optical sensory from your eyes telling your brain you see a rock.

I see what you're saying. That's a slippery argument to deal with though. I think we're at odds on the definition of reality. I see reality as the totality of real things and events. That which is observable and testable. If it's not observable, then it is a theory or a hypothesis. In my definition, God, a supernatural being, can only be a theory without evidence and proof.

I don't understand your rock analogy because we CAN perceive it 100%, with all five senses. Not only that, but others around us can observe and test it as well. Now, someone may fold their arms across their chest and refuse to believe in the rock, but toss the rock upside their head and they'll believe pretty quick.

Would you mind explaining why you feel this is so?

Certainly. I've already touched on it above. Science is the key to understanding our reality, that which is real, because as our science and thereby our understanding, progresses, we learn more about the world around us. At one time we believed gods were responsible for the rain and lightning, but we learned this was not so as our technology progressed. That is an example of physical science. Philosophy and thereby wisdom, must keep in step with technology for balance. Imagine if Hitler had modern day technology in WWII for example.

With new understanding comes growth. This growth is essential to our survival as a race and as a civilization. Thus, science is a key component to understanding reality.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Hmm, I'm not sure what you're going for froggy.

Reality to me is as I defined it above, the totality of real things and events. If I can't sense something with my senses, I have a hard time knowing it exists, or is real. Technology helps, because it increases our senses. Microscopes are a good example. They let us see things that are too small to be seen.

That definately means that there are things that exist beyond the scope of our perception. But without sensing them, it isn't intellectually honest to say they are within the realm of reality.

That's why leprechauns, unicorns, Santa Claus, and yes, all gods, are not real, not part of reality. Could leprechauns actually exist, could they be REAL. Sure, but without evidence that they exist, it wouldn't be intellectually honest to say they exist.

 

[ChickenSoup]

Reality is only what Chuck Norris allows to exist!

he he he I made that up all by myself I am so funny....

 

[Dark Virtue]

he he he I made that up all by myself

We could tell

 

[Berean Todd]

Why do you believe that Christianity isn't on the same level as all other religions?

The resurrection for one separates it from all other religions. Mohammed is dead in his grave. Budha likewise. Christ is the only one who rose again on the third day to prove who He was.

In Budhism you have the parable of the blind men and the elephant, in Christianity you have the elephant Himself taking on human form and revealing Himself to mankind.

And as you answer, realize that the answers you give could be just as easily given by a follower of another religion. Replace God with Allah, Jesus with Buddah, etc.

And realize that I was not raised Christian, but atheist, and that I tried other religions as well. I am utterly convinced of the truth of the life, death and ressurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[ChickenSoup]

We could tell

Whose this "we?" Got a mouse in yer pocket?

Anyway, I'll be serious now. Yes, seriously, I will. No, really. Honestly.


Reality, to me, is the sum of everything made by God. or is that the universe? Hmmm... have to think about that one, i think

 

[Dark Virtue]

The resurrection for one separates it from all other religions. Mohammed is dead in his grave. Budha likewise. Christ is the only one who rose again on the third day to prove who He was.

In Budhism you have the parable of the blind men and the elephant, in Christianity you have the elephant Himself taking on human form and revealing Himself to mankind.

What you have mentioned are simply differences. They don't make Christianity any better than another religion, only different.

And realize that I was not raised Christian, but atheist, and that I tried other religions as well. I am utterly convinced of the truth of the life, death and ressurrection of Jesus Christ.

I must admit that, because of the experiences I have had, that I have to take your claim of being raised atheist with a grain of salt. I will, however, not judge you until I understand more about your situation. If you wouldn't mind, would you explain how you were raised as an atheist, what other religions you tried and why you ultimately decided on Christianity?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Whose this "we?" Got a mouse in yer pocket?

Anyway, I'll be serious now. Yes, seriously, I will. No, really. Honestly.


Reality, to me, is the sum of everything made by God. or is that the universe? Hmmm... have to think about that one, i think

Your statement was worded in such a way that it implies there are things NOT made by God. Would you care to reword your statement?

 

[Berean Todd]

I must admit that, because of the experiences I have had, that I have to take your claim of being raised atheist with a grain of salt.

As you wish, you can believe what you like about me.

If you wouldn't mind, would you explain how you were raised as an atheist,

I was not raised as an atheist I was raised as an agnostic. In my entire first two decades of life basically I set foot in a church two times, both when I was about 5. My parents were completely a-religious, and my father was a science nut.

In my home school and education was extremely important, and early on in life I dreamed of being an astronomer. Due to personal experiences, and my affinity for science I came to the point of being what I considered an atheist, and looking at all religious people, in particular Christians, as utter kooks.

what other religions you tried

I read about and looked at many, I tried, or at least was on the outskirts of a group of druidic pagans.

and why you ultimately decided on Christianity?

Ultimately because I feel that God revealed Himself to me, and drew me to him. I am a calvinist so I believe that He will draw those whom He wishes to draw. If you want the specifics of how that happened, I developed a couple of friends in my life who happened to be Christians and who really broke my stereotype of what a Christian was.

After nearly two years of inviting me to various church events I finally broke down and attended a church service one Sunday morning,fully expecting to never return again. I was wrong, and from that day it was like a new light came on inside of me.

I did not walk any isles or "get saved", but from that moment I started exploring things more seriously. I got my first ever Bible and began reading it. I started reading all sorts of books, ranging from apologetic works by C.S. Lewis and Josh MacDowell (the two both had a huge impact on my conversion), as well as from some atheistic sources as well. I really felt an internal struggle going on.

For months this went on, I would also pester the pastor of this small church with what I considered to be the hard questions. I continued wrestling with things in my mind. Finally one Sunday, December 12th, I reached a point where I knew I had to make a decision, and I did, and placed my life in Christ, and began a new life.

I did not automatically become what one would consider a "fundamentalist", I in fact held onto a lot of my former beliefs for some time (such as evolution, old earth, etc, etc). I have not lived perfect since then, there was a period of a couple of years where I went through a very dark patch in my life ... but I never let go of Christ and I never will.

He has changed my life from that of a drunken, greedy, materialistic person with no direction, to a brokenhearted, loving husband, father, and future missionary. In other words, many things contributed to my conversion. I am convinced of the complete truth of CHristianity, I do feel I have experienced Him in my life, and I have tried it and it has transformed my very being.

 

[Dark Virtue]

As you wish, you can believe what you like about me.



I was not raised as an atheist I was raised as an agnostic. In my entire first two decades of life basically I set foot in a church two times, both when I was about 5. My parents were completely a-religious, and my father was a science nut.

In my home school and education was extremely important, and early on in life I dreamed of being an astronomer. Due to personal experiences, and my affinity for science I came to the point of being what I considered an atheist, and looking at all religious people, in particular Christians, as utter kooks.



I read about and looked at many, I tried, or at least was on the outskirts of a group of druidic pagans.



Ultimately because I feel that God revealed Himself to me, and drew me to him. I am a calvinist so I believe that He will draw those whom He wishes to draw. If you want the specifics of how that happened, I developed a couple of friends in my life who happened to be Christians and who really broke my stereotype of what a Christian was.

After nearly two years of inviting me to various church events I finally broke down and attended a church service one Sunday morning,fully expecting to never return again. I was wrong, and from that day it was like a new light came on inside of me.

I did not walk any isles or "get saved", but from that moment I started exploring things more seriously. I got my first ever Bible and began reading it. I started reading all sorts of books, ranging from apologetic works by C.S. Lewis and Josh MacDowell (the two both had a huge impact on my conversion), as well as from some atheistic sources as well. I really felt an internal struggle going on.

For months this went on, I would also pester the pastor of this small church with what I considered to be the hard questions. I continued wrestling with things in my mind. Finally one Sunday, December 12th, I reached a point where I knew I had to make a decision, and I did, and placed my life in Christ, and began a new life.

I did not automatically become what one would consider a "fundamentalist", I in fact held onto a lot of my former beliefs for some time (such as evolution, old earth, etc, etc). I have not lived perfect since then, there was a period of a couple of years where I went through a very dark patch in my life ... but I never let go of Christ and I never will.

He has changed my life from that of a drunken, greedy, materialistic person with no direction, to a brokenhearted, loving husband, father, and future missionary. In other words, many things contributed to my conversion. I am convinced of the complete truth of CHristianity, I do feel I have experienced Him in my life, and I have tried it and it has transformed my very being.

Thank you. The reason I asked was so that I would not have to assume.

I would like to make one observation. You said that as a Calvanist, you believe God draws those he wishes to draw. If God does indeed exist, where does that leave those of us that God chooses not to draw? Those of us who sought, but did not find him.