magic and false gods

LionOfJudah

Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
I think i posted this


Polytheism, defined by Webster’s dictionary as “belief in or worship of many gods” (568). What motivated men to worship many gods? Was it that God only wanted one chosen nation, or was it of others influence? Could the ancient people groups like the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and Mesopotamians had been influenced by the fallen angels, otherwise known as demons. Each of these cultures had a polytheistic religion; also each had a “god” for every aspect of their lives. The Egyptians are especially fascinating, being one of the oldest people groups, and one with the most complex religion and pantheon of gods in the ancient world. These gods had powers over the sun and moon, the change of season the flooding of the Nile, and the rains. They had all the powers of God, but they could not create life. God had to over come them in-order to have His people come out of Egypt, which leads to the theory that these gods where not figments of the imagination, but that they are real, spiritual beings. If this is true it would explain why idol worship was so prolific and wide spread in the ancient world. The plagues are one of the best examples of how these gods are real, and why God had to overcome their power.

The first plague was when Moses went down to the Nile and struck the water with his staff and the water turned to blood. Pharaoh’s magician where also able to perform this miracle. The Egyptian gods that were affected by this are Hapi, and Osiris. By turning the Nile into blood the Egyptian gods were proving that God was doing nothing special. The second plague of frogs both Aaron and the Egyptian magicians were able to do. The rest of the plague the Egyptians could not stop, or replicate. The last plague, the plague of the first born, had special implications to the Egyptians. Child birth was considered to be a very dangerous time for both the mother and child, when the demons would try to attack the mother. The Egyptians believed that the god Bes would keep their children safe during and after child birth. He was the protector of the divine child, or pharaoh’s son (Lurker, 33). The Egyptian gods could not thwart any of the plagues, or change the plagues severity, which could just lead the ancient Egyptians to believe that the Israelites God is just stronger than theirs. The Egyptians would say this, so not to discredit their own gods, and make them angry with them.

Why would the ancient Egyptians be so concerned with angering their gods? Was it the chaotic life that they lived from day to day with no true security, or was it because their gods had real powers? In order for the magicians to be able to turn all the water in Egypt to blood, it would require a supernatural power, and then for them to also be able to summon the frogs leads more evidence to supernatural powers at work. These gods are the fallen angels, the demons, or followers of Lucifer. They are the ones that God had to overcome.

What would lead men to worship these demons, what would put the idea in their heads to make them not want to follow the true God, and be one with Him? Could it be that the fallen angels had a more intimate relationship with the people? In Genesis 6:4 it talks about the Sons of God going to the daughters of men and having children with them, they are called the Nephilim. Most of the ancient people had their own men of renown, Greece had Hercules and Achilles, Rome had Romulus and Ramos, and Egypt had Osiris. Osiris was the first Pharaoh; he was given kingship over the land by his father Geb, the earth god (Redford, 302). Geb divided Egypt into to parts between his two sons Osiris and Seth. Geb eventually bestowed both kingdoms to Osiris because Seth was an unjust ruler. Seth in jealously killed Osiris, but has a son named Horus who avenges his father. Osiris becomes the king of the underworld, and is the chief judicator of the dead. While Horus becomes the ruler of the Egyptian kingdom. The Osiris story is one of the most recognizable of Egyptian religion. The Egyptian gods where always known for being with the people and having the same human aspects as the people do, hatred, jealousy, and pride. All characteristics of the fallen angels, all reasons why they fell too.

Why did the ancient Egyptians turn to these gods? The architecture of Egypt is some of the best in the world, even to this day. Egypt was also one of the most powerful nations in the world, being separated by a major desert on each side, so that they lived in isolation, which would lead to further advancements in knowledge.  It is no doubt that the Egyptians were one of the most advanced people groups, and had power. The reason why most people today turn to the demonic influences is for power. Demons offer an immediate gratification to the lust for power. Stated before demons have power over the four basic elements, earth, fire, wind, water. What does this have to do with Egyptians, why does it matter? Because the ancient world was a very chaotic place to live in. Each year would bring new uncertainties, each day could the last day of life, so people where looking for a way to control their lives. What better way than to bring in gods, or demons. The gods each had their own specific areas of power. Ra the sun god could not cause the Nile to flood each year, even though he was the supreme god. Each god had his or her limitations on their power; the same is true with demons. These gods would have only had as much power as God would have allowed them to have. In reality the demons were satisfying their need to be worshiped and adored, while at the same time fulfilling some of the basic needs of man. They gave the Egyptians the illusion of control over their lives, but in reality they were slaves to these demons. Egypt had a Pharaoh, who attempted to have the nation become monotheistic, but he was killed, and every possible trace of him was removed from history. The demons were going to do everything they could to keep themselves in power. They can only reign as long as the people were willing to give them their power; a demon can not influence this world with out a human vessel to work through (Larkin, 22). These demons adverted the people’s eyes away from God, and they sought only glory for themselves.

In the end, whether demon, or just myth, God over came them and brought His people out of Egypt. The demons of ancient Egypt were successful in blinding the people to God’s power. They brought earthly glory and power to themselves, and those that worked in their name.  The gods controlled the people’s lives, from the very moment the people awoke to their dreams the demons always had a strong presence with the people. Egyptian gods are demons; they show the same powers of what a modern Wicca would have. They fear their own destruction so they are always trying to lead more along the path to death like themselves. The greatest lie of Lucifer was not to tell people that God does not exist, but instead to set himself up as a god and all his fallen brethren to be worshiped by man. He slaps God in the face while leading people into eternal damnation with himself. In the end even the greatest of the people will be overcome and those that have glorified God shall live eternally while those that did not glorify God, they shall be sent down into eternal death, total and complete separation from God.








Bibliography
1) The Spirit World by Clarence Larkin Erwin W. Moyer Co, Printer Philadelphia PA 1921
2) The Gods and Symbols of Ancient Egypt by Manfred Lurker. Thames and Hudson London 1996
3) The ancient gods speak a guide to Egyptian religion edited by Donald B Redford. Oxford University press 2002 NY
4) Webster’s Dictionary Springfield Massachusetts, U.S.A. ©1999 Publishers Inc New York

anyone anythoughts/idea's seems like lately the RD has gone to magic and everything. Just a theory to toss around.

Please note i have not changed this at all from except removing the title page, that is exactly what i turned into my teacher and got a C for. Said it was to liberal/ and that there just is not enough proof for it. Yet he was the one that told me to go for it. i dont think he liked it because it was beyond him LOL just my little rant about it.
 
a C?! phhh this paper must have been way over your teachers head. I really enjoyed it. I do think it is speculation on an unseen world, but it makes sense. I don't think the Egyptians in any way to be stupid, so it wouldn't make sense for them to worship gods that weren't really there. Based on the information given in the Bible, theories like this tend to pop up that piece the vague parts together. Looks good to me. Do you have much info on the one monotheistic pharo, that got wiped from rulership/history? I have never heard that before. That could be another paper in itself.
 
Wow.That's very interesting.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Why did the ancient Egyptians turn to these gods? The architecture of Egypt is some of the best in the world, even to this day. Egypt was also one of the most powerful nations in the world, being separated by a major desert on each side, so that they lived in isolation, which would lead to further advancements in knowledge.
Why does anyone turn to sin? Satan's temptation.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Pharaoh’s magician where also able to perform this miracle. The Egyptian gods that were affected by this are Hapi, and Osiris. By turning the Nile into blood the Egyptian gods were proving that God was doing nothing special. The second plague of frogs both Aaron and the Egyptian magicians were able to do.
Yet just because they could doesn't mean gods were involved.
God may have allowed them to do so, as He will allow Satan to call down fire from Heaven at the end of time.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
There is only one god, and that is the God of the Bible.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] It is true, O LORD , that the Assyrian kings have laid waste these nations and their lands. They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by men's hands. Now, O LORD our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all kingdoms on earth may know that you alone, O LORD , are God.-2 Kings 19:17-19
 
I'm tempted to run a thread called "Bigotry and arrogant zealots. Thoughts." and see what you guys think of it.

Destruction and negativity. I'd love to see you guys BUILD something of your own for once, or maybe just stop destroying everybody elses beliefs. Instead of which you have the arrogance to worship the death of a stolen God on a stolen holiday and call everybody elses beliefs false?!

And not just false. All OUR gods are your demons, is that it? Do you think I wouldn't know evil by now? Am I a child? I thought the whole point of us getting booted out of Eden was that we TOOK the ability to know Good and Evil - so why now are we so blind we can't tell a fallen messenger of a God from a God?

What if YOUR beliefs are false? What if Yahweh is a bad joke made up by Loki that got out of hand? Let's see you write a critical paper discusing how miracles are different from magic. How when Yahweh destroys a city, that's Justice, but when any other God does it's the brutal work of demons and devils.

How about a paper on the nature of hypocrisy? How about doing some reseach on EITHER the powers of the Ancient Egyptian Gods OR on modern Wicca before tossing the words into what is supposed to be a scholarly investigation?

And as for the tutor who called that "too liberal" I can only guess at his moral condition!
 
Wow, Eon. Simply incredible, my freind.

Guys, he makes an awesome point. Now, as an atheist, I view all the gods as farsical and fabricated -- you know this. I see articles like this as the pot calling the kettle black. And yet, when I look at the wide spectrum of gods that man has built up for himself over the ages, the ones who have lost the most following are the ones I see as being the most believable.

Eon makes a wonderful point when he suggests the possibility that Yahweh is a joke from Loki -- what is there keeping this from being the case? When one has a set of beliefs as you Christians do, this is certainly not out of bounds. Everything would fit, all loose ends could be accounted for. Is it ad hoc? Surely, but so are many Christian arguments.

Anyways, there's nothing else I can say about Eon's post that would add anything of merit to it -- indeed, with this post I may have retracted from it, as his was beautiful, emotion-filled, and truly spoken, whereas I'm kind of playing devil's advocate. So that's all I have to say. Kudos, Eon. I applaud you.

Edit --> BTW, Lion, what grade are you in? I'm honestly not trying to be insulting, but I'm a grammar nazi (besides on forums, of course), and there's a lot of bad grammar and overall bad constructions in the essay which may have contributed to your "C".
 
he wasnt grading it on grammar and writing/grammar has never been a good point for me. that is a freshman paper.

As far as asking a wiccian i did. infact i talked very indepth with him about it. If you have ever seen the opening movie to WC3... he did something like that at the water falls near the school, i felt really wierd when i was there (usually its a peaceful place but then it was just something heavy in the air or something).

Yes i did alot of research on the Egyptian "gods" powers. like the Romans and the Greeks they had alot of overlap and one major legend (Osiris). Which is the one i focused most of my paper on.

Now then i figured i would get a response like that from Eon and Timor. I was also wondering how Other Christians felt about it.

Edit

Eon as stated before what you deem moral and just is what you decide, no matter what you say it is your choice and taken from your world views. Were as myself along with the College prof both take the Bible as the ultimate authority.
 
It is not your place to denounce anyone else's faith.  You defy the very essence of faith by questioning the legitimacy of others'.  Look at the world.  Thousands of religions, and each one deams itself 'correct'.  What makes you right and them wrong?  The religion you were brought up in or exposed to has no influence whatsoever on the 'correct'ness of any other belief system.  Tell me, what if you happened to have been born in a country and family that advocated polytheism?  

Really though...I can't add much to Eon's post.  I think you need to take a long and hard look at what you're saying...

Edit- Um...how the -explative- is that paper liberal??
 
At the very heart of Christianity i have stated that ever religion is false. IF you dont like it then to bad.

Christianity says that all other religions are wrong

Jesus said I am the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. pretty much says its either my way or no way.
 
Hello all. You may remember me, I posted some last year.

Ya'know, I think that it is really funny when atheists repremand us for saying that other belief systems are wrong. After all, they do it all the time and they mock our intelligence for belief in a seven day devine creation.
Norse mythology is a perfect example of why we can dismiss other ancient religions as christians. After all, I think that most of us agree that this world does not consist of a giant tree of 7 levels: and that the equator is not a giant serpent.
I could see that some VERY conservative christians would think that your paper was liberal. I thought that it was right on the money personally. The only thing was, that I don't think that God had to "overcome" demons I think that he could destroy them with the bat of an eyelash if he so desired.
 
i do not doubt that just in the text is speficily says that God over came them.

I think that what was being done was God just basicly showing that He is supreme and that He has the RAW power to overcome them.

Like a boxer or a fighter.
They know they can 1 hit K.O someone. Why not just show this persons fan base or something how truely weak the person really is
 
Was this essay done at school under test conditions? Is freshman the 15/16 year old level in America? Were you provided a topic to write on or was it a free writing exercise?

In my opinion, it has too many logical backflips / non sequiturs. You ramble too much where you could simply give a brief explanation, and you don't back up, elaborate and connect your important points that need supporting. A few of your paragraphs seem quite unnesessary, and it seems as if paragraphs which would have created logical flow and continuity have been cut out. Your language isn't very sophisticated, it's often poorly structured and as you say; it is full of poor grammar and spelling.

I'm not talking about what your paper is actually saying - Eon did a good job of critiquing your content - I'm talking about the way it was said. I don't say this to bag you out or discourage you, but you did get a C, and these are areas in which I think you could improve.

Oh, and I wouldn't flatter yourself by assuming he didn't like it because he didn't understand it. I shudder to think of how conservative your teacher must be! I thought your paper was over the top conservative and he thinks it's liberal. Yikes.
wow.gif
 
Still here, Lion, still here and growing by the year. Christianity is a dying religion in Europe - especially in my home country.

The Norse were brought down by economic terrorism, and by threat of military force. In no wise were my gods laid low by your god - human belief in them was compromised by death threats and embargo from the Holy Roman Empire. Incidentally, the Holy Roman Empire takes the grand prize for hypocrisy, seeing as it was neither Holy, Roman nor an Empire, that beats the Democratic Republic of Germany, even... (For those without much socio-political knowledge thats old East Germany).

The serious point of how Christianity is marginalising itself into extremism, we'll leave for another thread. The arrogance and mistaken false pride of your essay, is something that your response has only underlined. And your research on Wicca should probably go further than speaking to a single hedgewitch. ;)

Eon
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ April 12 2004,9:42)]At the very heart of Christianity i have stated that ever religion is false. IF you dont like it then to bad.

Christianity says that all other religions are wrong

Jesus said I am the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. pretty much says its either my way or no way.
Of course Christianity says that all other religions are wrong--why else would the crusades and religious imperialism have taken place? The same goes for every other religion though...it's a paradox of contradicting beliefs, and behind each and every one a zealot. Yes, your religion does not allow you to believe in others, but it does not mean that yours is the only 'correct' one. You have no way of 'knowing' that; it is based soley on a thing called faith. As I said before..you are defying the very essence of faith by believing thusly. Saying 'my way or no way' is just stubborn religious bigotry...and I don't think you want to go there.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Destruction and negativity. I'd love to see you guys BUILD something of your own for once, or maybe just stop destroying everybody elses beliefs.
So relgion is something u make up?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Instead of which you have the arrogance to worship the death of a stolen God on a stolen holiday and call everybody elses beliefs false?!
could you elaborate on the stolen God part please?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]but it does not mean that yours is the only 'correct' one.
so its possible for there to be more than one correct god?
 
A church is certainly something you make up. God doesn't build cathedrals, form orders of monks, write prayer books, organise services or write hymns. Neither does he give sermons telling you how to behave to the other people in your shared community, more's the pity I hasten to add, because I think Christianity in general deserves a SPANKING over this issue. Is a religion something you make up? Well, put it this way, if there IS a supreme being do you REALLY think he cares how often you eat pork or fish, and whether you work on Saturday or not and how much you tithe to your priests?

Certainly I'll elaborate. Yahweh is a JUDAIC God, belonging to a small tribe that grew to rule two nations in the golden crescent of the Middle East. He was stolen by the Romans who formulated Christianity, and stolen AGAIN by the Islamics who followed Mohammed. Now you have three very DIFFERENT religions all purportedly following the same God, and ALL professing to be the one true faith. More if you count the splinters sects who hate each just as much as they hate the different religions spawned from the same God and almost as much as they seem to despise the religions not so spawned.

And finally, I don't know. Certainly there is no bar in MY faith against the existence of Yahweh - after all, YOU all seem to believe in him, so why not? What I doubt, most strongly, are the veracity of some of the writings attributed to him.


And a special remark to JJOsprey who seems to have lost the use of his imagination. Do you know what the words metaphorical and allegorical mean? Or do you still think the sun revolves around the Earth and that the stars are smallish objects in near earth orbit just awaiting the command to plummet on Judgement day.

Believe me, if even a single star fell to Earth that would cut the Morning Star's command performance awfully short, seeing as how most stars outmass us by a dazzling factor, and are composed of incandescent Hydrogen.


Eon
 
I certainly knew that it was a figure of speech I was just making a comment on it.
I think the reason that europeans are against Christianity is that execpt for Great Britain, they are all mostly Catholic nations. Sadly (I mean no offence) the Roman Catholic Church was and still is full of contradictions. I don't think that God cares about when not to eat meat and to eat fish instead. This is not in the Bible at all (as far as I know). Tithing is on the other hand. God cares about that because he wants us to obey his commands not because he needs the money or anything.....
 
I think the main reason that Europeans are against Christianity is that it's had two thousand years to achieve something over here and we're starting to get sick and tired of waiting.

Britain is the LEAST religious of the European countries polled in the recent BBC survey and it's also the first country that went wholly Protestant. So your theory about the Catholic church running out of steam is a little misguided.

I personally blame the fact that all the Christian church seems to have achieved in two millenia of control in Europe is the enrichment of the Christian church and several costly wars. And before you guys in the new world start looking smug, in your neck of the woods it seems to have achieved little more than three counts of genocide and the enrichment of the Christian Church in the America's.

Eon
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]A church is certainly something you make up. God doesn't build cathedrals, form orders of monks, write prayer books, organise services or write hymns. Neither does he give sermons telling you how to behave to the other people in your shared community, more's the pity I hasten to add, because I think Christianity in general deserves a SPANKING over this issue. Is a religion something you make up? Well, put it this way, if there IS a supreme being do you REALLY think he cares how often you eat pork or fish, and whether you work on Saturday or not and how much you tithe to your priests?
You use the word church wrongly. The church is the group of believers, not a building. Jesus did establish the church. Jesus did tell us how to treat our nieghbor. Our purpose is to worship God. Organize a service? no thats something we did make up, God did not. God did care if you eat pork, work on saturday, and how much you trusted him financially. The point of the old testament was God showing people how to reach heaven on thier own. No one was perfect, so God gave us other means to reach heaven.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Certainly I'll elaborate. Yahweh is a JUDAIC God, belonging to a small tribe that grew to rule two nations in the golden crescent of the Middle East. He was stolen by the Romans who formulated Christianity, and stolen AGAIN by the Islamics who followed Mohammed. Now you have three very DIFFERENT religions all purportedly following the same God, and ALL professing to be the one true faith. More if you count the splinters sects who hate each just as much as they hate the different religions spawned from the same God and almost as much as they seem to despise the religions not so spawned.
The jewish God and the Christian God are the same. No one stole him. The Jews rejected Christ. Christ is part of the trinity that the Jews reject. THe Jews only believe in God the Father. We didn't "steal" Jesus from anyone. No one believes in Jesus other than Christians. Jesus formed the church.(group of believers) No, the Romans did not form christianity... The apostles did. Romans catholics were the ones who distorted christianity, so if you could stop associating Christianity with Roman Catholics, I would appreciate it. Martin Luther helped preserve Jesus' Church under the name of prodestant along with many other great leaders. The Roman catholic were one of the few leaders who distorted christianity... There are many Jewish Christians also. If any Christian hates people from another religion, they are not really following Christ as they should. I don't know alot about Muslims, but they believe Jesus lived after he was hung on a cross, and had a sword stuck through him. I guess they think he snuck away while no one was looking from the cross... I don't know what thats all about.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And finally, I don't know. Certainly there is no bar in MY faith against the existence of Yahweh - after all, YOU all seem to believe in him, so why not? What I doubt, most strongly, are the veracity of some of the writings attributed to him.
God said he is the only true God. so, if there are more than one correct God that would make God a liar, making him imperfect, making him not God at all. So that rules out the possibility of there being more than one 'correct' god...

If I had the same view of Christianity as you, I don't think I would be a "christian" either  
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According to what I know of your beliefs, Jesus formed a "church" of exactly 12 guys (13 if you count Judas Iscariot) and his disciples then went off and formed the various Christian groups that we have today, which were all eventually conjoined under the Catholic Church (that's what Catholic means, incidentally, it comes from the latin for universal).

Martin Luther and others didn't come around for over fifteen hundred years after Christs death and were in protest against what they saw as the temporal and secular focus of the Catholic Church. You can try and distance yourself from Rome all you like, but for over two tthirds of your religions span on this earth, Rome was the only and final arbiter of your faith. All other Christian faiths are a slight divergence from Catholicism and are based on the same roots.

And I asked whether a supreme being cared if YOU ate Pork, worked on Saturday and tithed, not if he cared what his old tribe did back in Judea way back when. I'm interpreting your answer as "no", which means that a large part of the bible is obsolete, rather than being infalliable as you claim.

So, let me get the next part of your reply straight in my mind. The Judaic faiths believe in Yahweh. You guys took Yahweh, added Jesus to him as an integral part of "God", and the two sects are bitterly opposed, but he wasn't "stolen". Did you guys ask permission to borrow their God? What am I mising here?

Your absurd contention that the Catholic church were "one of the few leaders that distorted Christianity" when they WERE Christianity for about 1500 years, I've already covered. I find it difficult to believe that you could have a millenium and a half of distortion and suddenly return to the undistorted truth.

Finally, how do you KNOW that God said he was the one true God, or in what context he said it, even if he DID? He might have been speaking regarding the small tribe of goat herders he was representing. You will, no doubt, claim that you know because the bible says so. Well, this is an argument we've heard before, but there's really no proof that the bible is the unadultered word of God - in fact any proof that exists tends to support the concept that it has been changed and altered over its history and through its translation to different languages.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]According to what I know of your beliefs, Jesus formed a "church" of exactly 12 guys (13 if you count Judas Iscariot) and his disciples then went off and formed the various Christian groups that we have today, which were all eventually conjoined under the Catholic Church (that's what Catholic means, incidentally, it comes from the latin for universal).
Actually Jesus was the one who told the 12 guys to go preach to the ends of the earth, and establish a church. So, no, they didn't just start doing that on thier own.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Martin Luther and others didn't come around for over fifteen hundred years after Christs death and were in protest against what they saw as the temporal and secular focus of the Catholic Church. You can try and distance yourself from Rome all you like, but for over two tthirds of your religions span on this earth, Rome was the only and final arbiter of your faith. All other Christian faiths are a slight divergence from Catholicism and are based on the same roots.
No, Rome was the only arbitor of the church in Rome. There were christians all over the world, and there were genuine christians even in Rome who had to meet in seceret in fear the the Roman Church from calling them heretics. Sure Rome might have been the biggest organization to call themselves christian, however when you don't let your followers read the book they are suppose to live thier life by, and make up rules, I tend to see that as more of a cult... Rome was not the only arbitor.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And I asked whether a supreme being cared if YOU ate Pork, worked on Saturday and tithed, not if he cared what his old tribe did back in Judea way back when. I'm interpreting your answer as "no", which means that a large part of the bible is obsolete, rather than being infalliable as you claim.
old rules don't change its historical acuracy, and the whole old testament, isn't just made up of Jewish law. Thats only one book bro. There is still much to be learned from the old testament, and the old law was never abolished.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So, let me get the next part of your reply straight in my mind. The Judaic faiths believe in Yahweh. You guys took Yahweh, added Jesus to him as an integral part of "God", and the two sects are bitterly opposed, but he wasn't "stolen". Did you guys ask permission to borrow their God? What am I mising here?
You seem to be missing alot. The christians didn't make up, or add anything. Yahweh sent Jesus, and verbally said "this is my Son". Jesus only did his miracles through the power of Yahweh, because he was in human form. No, we are not bitterly opposed at all. Every Jewish temple /temple dwellers I have seen are extreemly nice people to christians and Gentiles alike.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] find it difficult to believe that you could have a millenium and a half of distortion and suddenly return to the undistorted truth.
Like I said, they were the only church in Rome, not the world, and even in Rome some christians had to meet in seceret. They weren't even corrupted until they became pollitically powerful, and then they were terrible.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Finally, how do you KNOW that God said he was the one true God, or in what context he said it, even if he DID? He might have been speaking regarding the small tribe of goat herders he was representing. You will, no doubt, claim that you know because the bible says so. Well, this is an argument we've heard before, but there's really no proof that the bible is the unadultered word of God .
Before I go and start giving you proof. Please, tell me what qualifies as "proof" to you?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]- in fact any proof that exists tends to support the concept that it has been changed and altered over its history and through its translation to different languages
the burden of proof is on your end for this one. I have found quite the opposite to be true, so please fill me in. What makes you say this?
 
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