Information you wanted to know

[-Jad-]

Hello all;



Many of you have been wondering what has been going on.. and unfortunately some people have been saying things that were not true but, presenting them as truth’s . For any and all panic and worry that this has all caused I am truly Sorry.



The issues at hand have been going on long before the demotions that were seen in game, and for the longest time I have been reluctant to talk about it too much due to the fact that it entailed happenings that were of a personal nature and I didn’t think that should be aired for all to see. But since some of those involved have made comments in public forums that were not true Im going to let you all know what has lead to where we are now.



Weeks ago I was approached by some guildies ( I will leave their names out for personal reasons) some officers and some not. About an issue they had with Mordos. The issues ranged from being treated by him in a disrespectful way, feeling that they were being intimidated in game, having things said to them in a hurtful/argumentative manner and abuse of power. As with all complaints I tried to gather information on what was being said (getting the facts from their side of the story) so I could approach Mordos with the complaints to see what he had to say and see if there was any merit to the complaints. I have always been Fair and impartial. Prior to talking with Mordos I talked with the other GL’s (Tree and Bill) because We as a “Trinity” leadership make decisions and decide how to approach things as a group… ( No Officer Channel Conspiracy as certain individuals have dubbed it). It was decided to be simple and approach Mordos and say “hey this is what has been told to us… what’s your side” so we did.

Now in Mordos’ defense he was unaware of some of the issues being brought forward.. therefore the was no way he could address them… We as Christians have a way to “ file a grienvance” against someone.. it is found in the book of Matthew 18:15-17

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.



If you don’t got to a person that is causing you an issue they can’t fix it.



After Mordos was confronted with this he started having some deep feelings about how his raid style carried over to how people thought of him (mean, intimidating, rude, ect. ect) in general. It was at this point he felt that scripturally and spiritually that if that is what he does because of raiding then he didn’t want to lead raids. ( Not what I wanted to hear but, I respect his view and his wishes) Both Tree and I told him to think about that and pray before HE decided to step down ( again that is not what anyone wanted Mordos is an awesome raid leader and I have said that time and time again)



Now fast forward to Monday night. We raided EoE 25 man and then after some difficulty we moved to Os 25man. It was during the first moments during the OS raid that I was getting bombarded with whispers from some guildies as to why someone wasn’t invited to the raid.. cause the raid was not full.. I then asked Mordos if this person was on a raid suspension that I didn’t know about and I got no answer.. I then asked Gobby is this person on a Raid suspension she said I don’t know “so an so” ( name left out) said he was… Well at that point I told Gobby that since the raid was not full and he was the only one on the list to invite this person to the raid. I would rather invite the person so they could raid that night and find out after all that he was on suspension than find out we “guild leadership” dropped the ball and because we did that person didn’t get in.. ( I have ALWAYS tried to keep things fair for all people even at the expense of not being like among all) after a few pulls I got a whisper from Mordos that stated “demote me now please please” after I received that I did the “..please please” to me was an indicator that this was really not something he wanted anymore… so I did it there on the spot.. This is a game and I do not want this game to be any hardship or distress to anyone at any time. As soon as I did that I got a whisper from Gobby that said “me too” I didn’t get back to her because not only were we in the middle of one of the Drake fights, I was getting whispers from other people… It was then when I recived Gobby’s second whisper that stated “ demote me too please” when I had time I did.

I would like to go on record that, that night was very hard for me I just had two people who I considered friends step away from something that they loved to do for reasons that they apparenty were under stress or hurt from… Both Gobby and Mordos have done a lot for this guild Mordos has done some pretty amazing things with us in raiding and Gobby has always done fun events that make us all laugh and enjoy each other’s company.

After the raid that night I promoted Samboe to head raid leader. I did not do this out of disrespect or anger to Mordos, I did it in the attempt to keep things going for Redeemed as Raiding is what it likes to do and give Samboe the tools and in game functions that he need to do so while we sorted this whole thing out.. I made this promotion on a Temporary basis we needed someone to fill Mordos’ position while we figured out what was gonna happen next… It was my hopes that it would give Mordos some time to cool down. That evening I told samboe in vent that this would be temporary and that WE needed his help till we figured things out.



This.. is what happened.. No Conspiracy or plots by by the officers



This Incident happened because some people came to me and the other guild leads with and issue ( although they could have resolved it with Mordos first but some felt intimidated and non the less.. they came to us for help) and I and the guild leads attempted to address it.



again I'm Sorry that this is a little late but i wanted to make sure that I could give you all what happened without having to name names and give out personal information.

If any of you have more questions i urge you to send me a PM and i will answer what I can

 

[Goblit]

I apologise for suprising you Jad with that fact I needed a break as well. I had discussed it with Treehouse the day before. I do intend to stay in the guild, to stay involved, and raid again but I need time to heal and hopefully see some positive changes. Tree has asked me to remain raid leader while I take the break if that is ok with everyone. I hope it was just a mistake/miscommunication that removed access to forums and such for both of us.

 

[Where]

wow took months to get access for everyone to those forums but hours to get it revoked accidentally? lol

 

[Laraptor]

/sigh

 

[Avesther]

It's amazing the rift caused by this group of not named people caused. I think it speaks to the need for the guild leaders and maybe a group of members to sit down and design a conflict resolution processes.

 

[treebranch]

It's amazing the rift caused by this group of not named people caused. I think it speaks to the need for the guild leaders and maybe a group of members to sit down and design a conflict resolution processes.

Hehe, we've asked people in the past to follow Matthew 18:15-17. Sometimes people choose not to which makes me a sad panda.

 

[Avesther]

I imagine it is very hard for some people to approach people in leadership with an issue they may have. Having a procedure in place to make it safe for both parties may be a solution. I, on the other hand, have no problems telling my superiors that I have an issue with them. Usually after I approach her, Goblit gives me that stern stare until I see it her way, then we are in agreement after that.

 

[treebranch]

Yeah, makes sense. Just so everyone knows, the official position we've taken is that Matthew 18:15-17 is the only model we use to resolve conflict. Officers know that when people come to us with complaints about other people, we push them back to the person they have a complaint about. In the event the person feels intimidated, one of the GL's will join in the conversation to facilitate the discussion. In the event they still don't want to go to the person, there isn't much we can do. I personally hate going to people and saying "3 people who will remain namless are complaining about you..."

 

[Avesther]

Ok, so the official conflict resolution method is:

Mathew 18:15-17. And if the complainant feels intimidated by the person they have a grievance, they should seek the GL to join in on the conversation to help create a safe place for the two to discuss the issue at hand and to be an impartial observer (that is not to have heard the complaint before hand).

Sounds like a policy to me. Is it posted somewhere? Or if not, copy paste this somewhere?

 

[Where]

I still urge anyone with issues with Mordos to talk to him, I sent him a PM when I had an issue with him and less than 30 minutes later my phone rang and it was him I think we talked for over an hour and 90% of that was just laughing and carrying on about other stuff.

 

[*WALL*]

Yeah...there is definitely an open door policy for all the officers...

 

[MouseOfAslan]

It is very hard on officers to lead a guild as large as ours. With so many people, there are bound to be people who get feelings hurt in some ways. I pray that we can all be together as Christians and work out feelings with eachother. When someone leads, there are always going to be some toes stepped on, the nature of leadership. Learning how to follow sometimes is hard for someone who has leadership abilities, but is necessary when a different leader is established.

Trying to put someone who is not a leader into a leadership role is even worse... but I've not seen that happen here. We have a good group of leaders, EXCELLENT actually, and I hope that all of Redeemed will take the time to look into their own hearts, say prayers for eachother and work out any difficulties they seem to be having. It is hard on everyone when conflict hits the guild. Even those that are on the fringes, wishing they could help out in some way, watching friends get hurt and hoping that things will get better. Gossip is not a good thing, so remember, please don't practice it.

Please everyone, pray and patiently await God in your lives, Rejoice, he has risen, this is the season of hope, wonder and miracles. Happy Easter soon! Come together in His name, Rejoice, Rejoice! This is why we are here, why we fellowship together, why we play and have fun. God gave us the ability to have imagination, to feel, to laugh, to cry and all of it is necessary to building our nature.

God bless everyone.

 

[Baddwin]

Yeah, makes sense. Just so everyone knows, the official position we've taken is that Matthew 18:15-17 is the only model we use to resolve conflict. Officers know that when people come to us with complaints about other people, we push them back to the person they have a complaint about. In the event the person feels intimidated, one of the GL's will join in the conversation to facilitate the discussion. In the event they still don't want to go to the person, there isn't much we can do. I personally hate going to people and saying "3 people who will remain namless are complaining about you..."

Just chiming in from the peanut gallery, as I've been uninvolved in WoW raiding for about 2 years. However, I've been very involved in leadership and shepherding at church for quite a while. Matthew 18 is the ONLY model we can follow, scripturally. If the 'aggrieved' party is feeling bullied by the other, then I don't see an issue with bringing a mutually respected third party to facilitate the discussion, but when a believer refuses to follow God's plan for reconciliation at all, they are the ones that have chosen to step outside God's plan. It's simply not fair to either party to bypass the plan God gave us to restore relationships. There's a reason God directs us to do it that way, and that's because it works. When we get too intimidated to do it His way, things blow up, like this situation apparently did.

Now, I have no idea who was involved, and don't intend to point fingers at anyone here, leader or not. I simply have seen that even though Biblical restoration requires us to step out and do some scary things, it's the absolute best way to do it, and 95% of the time never has to go beyond 'you go to your brother/sister'. That first step almost always resolves the issue.

When someone has an issue and goes to a third party, the first question needs to be, "Have you talked to them about it yet?" If the answer is no, then they need to be directed to do exactly that. If they don't care enough about reconciliation to do it God's way, they are the ones that have chosen not to reconcile.

</soapbox>

<3 Redeemed!

 

[Hescominsoon]

It's amazing the rift caused by this group of not named people caused. I think it speaks to the need for the guild leaders and maybe a group of members to sit down and design a conflict resolution processes.

there is a very well defined conflict resolution process..in the bible. Also it doesn't need to be posted anywhere.follow the book.

 

[Mordos]

there is a very well defined conflict resolution process..in the bible. Also it doesn't need to be posted anywhere.follow the book.

I think Aves also wanted what happens when it isn't followed? Because on many cases it was not. Many of the things that were brought to me I was unaware of. Or was aware of the situation but I didn't think it was the issue that the other party did. Even if it is ok or not to take it to a third party on many times the third party never brought it to me and it just piled up.

I'm not denying my involvement in all this, I was very much a factor, it's just frustrating that I hear different stories from all sorts of different people that have been involved. Being an amateur apologist I pay very close attention to what is said and said by who and what words are used. I know the Guild Leadership wants what is best, but in many ways are doing it in a manner that is not best.

I hope and pray that this can get all smoothed over. Good thing God is in charge and is the really Guild leader.

Oh and I don’t buy into the mistake or loosing forum access… Next time you want to punch people in the face, (cause it’s happen allot on this issue) let them know. Because I thought I stepped down not booted from my position.

 

[Goblit]

Agreed. <feels punched too>

 

[john3610]

Oh and I don’t buy into the mistake or loosing forum access…

I urge you to think the best of people. The 2 choices are to think that something was done in a hurtful manner and we are lying about it now or to believe that we tried to do the best thing in the best manner we knew how at the time (whether it turned out to be a mistake or not).

I know the Guild Leadership wants what is best, but in many ways are doing it in a manner that is not best.

We know we don't always do things the exact right way, but are trying to make things right. There has been alot of emotion thrown around on both ends. In this situation it might not have been the best idea to keep this back and forth in public. It might be wise to take this conflict up privately with us officers. Follow the same principles of conflict management that have been spoken of in this thread and let's work this out without drawing people who are not involved into it until the parties involved has discussed the issue.

 

[Goblit]

That has been attempted Bill, at least by me, and I'm trying to patiently wait for things to calm down because I am getting no response from the other party.

 

[Mordos]

I urge you to think the best of people. The 2 choices are to think that something was done in a hurtful manner and we are lying about it now or to believe that we tried to do the best thing in the best manner we knew how at the time (whether it turned out to be a mistake or not).

A mistake would be demoting me to probation, or member like Jad did when demoting me, but then promoted me to Vet... And I'm still there (If I was removed from Class Lead all I ask is tell me). Many actions have been made to remove all hint of Goblit and I, yet people talk about all we did for the guild. The leadership seems to be working hard on getting us completely out... yet I had Guild Leads telling me they wish me to return to leading. Seems like a smoke screen to keep me happy. We are being treated like I was removed or in the words of an officer "suspended"... Really? I thought I left on my own. that is just a hint, a tip of this heap of mixed ideas of what happen. I would subjest that all the Guild Leaders and maybe the officers get together and actually get on the same page. So that the mistreatment of the guild members stops and we can get back to having fun in this game we play.

It might be wise to take this conflict up privately with us officers. Follow the same principles of conflict management that have been spoken of in this thread and let's work this out without drawing people who are not involved into it until the parties involved has discussed the issue.

While in most cases I would agree and I would do that is the leadership wishes, but these actions were extreamly public and should be handled in public. If it was private it needs to be handled in private.

 

[john3610]

It's been less than 24 hours since y'all were removed from the forums. Give it some time. And the example from Matthew 18 has not happened yet. First thing that happened was that the thread was posted about y'all being removed from forum access and class lead. Give it some time please and trust that we will discuss things with you in a more private setting.

Threads where we are all arguing back and forth only serve to cause division and undermine the leadership. We make mistakes, but try to make them right. Give us an opportunity to do that without pulling everybody into it.

And also, thank you for being calm. That surely helps things go together more smoothly