How can an omnibenevolent God allow this to happen?

The question is how one is supposed to judge his "orange" against other available oranges. How does he or she know that their chosen orange is the best choice? To go along with the metaphor, how does one "taste" the other selections, and upon what criteria are they scrutinized? To me, it appears that the selection process is fairly arbitrary, as there is no objective basis for comparison on what makes a good orange. Those oranges that you've grown up with and are accustomed to has a large impact on your decision, for you will be more prone to accept oranges that are similar to the oranges you were raised with. Simularity, however, has no connection with "truth," and so while your chosen orange may be the "best" orange through use of this process, it also has the same chance of being the worst. Quite a conundrum, methinks.

So anyways, my question is this: How do you know that your "orange" is the best one out there?

Hah...all this orange talk is making me hungry for some. : )
 
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<laughs> Yes, the orange metaphor happened whilst I was drinking a litre of juice, and I'll admit it's made me thirsty! :)

In my opinion the only way you can make a qualititative judgement is by staying open minded and experiencing lots of faith systems. At least find out about them!

For me, it's been a long search, and I'm actually in a rather misty sort of place right now, where none of the established forms of teaching work right for me. The closest would be Shinto, I suppose.
 
How do you know that your "orange" is the best one out there?
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In the strict sense of the word "know", I don't. I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'm right, and I won't be able to until Jesus comes back.

However, based on the preponderance of scientific, historical, and anecdotal data, I believe I am right. Science cannot explain abiogenesis, pointing to a creator of nature and natural laws that all creatures must abide by. Jesus is the only man historically documented to have had mastery over those laws by raising from the dead, implying a connection with the creator of those laws. His message is that I can live in Heaven forever with my Creator simply by admitting my faults and repenting of them in His name.

That's a mighty tasty orange to me.
 
Well, to head a long and poorly defined discussion off at the pass I'll merely say that where you are is where I started and even returned to once - and I don't share your beliefs. If you want to discuss specific areas of belief, I'll be happy - but this "my faith is better than your faith" stuff seldom yields fruitful discussion.
 
Eon said:
Well, to head a long and poorly defined discussion off at the pass I'll merely say that where you are is where I started and even returned to once - and I don't share your beliefs. If you want to discuss specific areas of belief, I'll be happy - but this "my faith is better than your faith" stuff seldom yields fruitful discussion.
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(Emphasis mine)

True. Most of the time, people on either side of the argument have their "one thing" that they keep coming back to, restating, and then correcting where it gets taken out of context.

However, it did lead to a discussion about oranges... which I suppose would be a "fruitful" discussion.
 
Ugh. I really walked into that one, didn't I?

Honestly, you'd think I'd know better... :)

There will be a time for debate, hopefully, on specific things. I just didn't want to walk into a "the bible says" discussion in my first week back and have you all think I'm a troublemaker.

I'm by far at my best with an issue to debate.
 
Well I read the very first post by DV and havent really read any of the others, so if you have covered what Im about to post, you have my apoligies. I found this great bit of info in an e-mailing that I get every week and I hope it helps to answer some questions anybody may have had.

Why Do Christians Have Trials?

The Apostle Paul certainly knew sufferings (2 Corinthians 4:7-11, 16-18; 2 Corinthians 11:23-28; Hebrews 11:32-40). And he regarded them as opportunities. There are many reasons why we face trials. Here are just a few:

To glorify God (Daniel 3:16-18, 24-25)
Discipline for known sin (Hebrews 12:5-11; James 4:17; Romans 14:23; 1 John 1:9)
To prevent us from falling into sin (1 Peter 4:1-2)
To keep us from pride. Paul was kept from pride by his "thorn in the flesh" (2 Corinthians 12:7-10)
To build faith (1 Peter 1:6-7)
To cause growth (Romans 5:3-5)
To teach obedience and discipline (Acts 9:15-16; Philippians 4:11-13)
To equip us to comfort others (2 Corinthians 1:3-4)
To prove the reality of Christ in us (2 Corinthians 4:7-11)
For testimony to the angels (Job 1:8; Ephesians 3:8-11; 1 Peter 1:12)
When faced with times of trouble remember that God loves you, He knows what is best for you, and He has a plan for your life (Jeremiah 29:11).

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? ... I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." � Romans 8:35, 38-39



Related Links:

• Weathering the Storm - MP3 Download - Koinonia House
• Faith in the Night Seasons - Koinonia House

There you have it, this is a great website if any of you should care to explore it.
www.khouse.org
 
According to your beliefs, the right to question is the right that God gave us that seperates us from the animals. We were given Free Will, that means that we have EVERY right to question God, according to Christian scripture. After all, what use is choice if it is not based on knowledge? You're simply guessing, aren't you?

The one universal constant in the human condition is suffering. No society, be it ever so enlightened, has done away with it. Someone is always hungry, hurting, degraded or opressed. If drawing nearer to God made suffering less then fundamentalist societies would have less suffering and profane societies more - and yet that is almost the exact opposite of what we see in the world.

Whatever God is, he is not squeamish and he is not benevolent. He has a different agenda and relying on his mercy will not spare you tribulation in this life. More than that, I cannot speak on.
 
Eon said:
According to your beliefs, the right to question is the right that God gave us that seperates us from the animals. We were given Free Will, that means that we have EVERY right to question God, according to Christian scripture. After all, what use is choice if it is not based on knowledge? You're simply guessing, aren't you?
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This is one of the times I like to whip out the ole Bible and quote from it:

1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.''

And that's why I am no longer a Christian. Nothing can be proven, and there is very little good to hold fast to that you can't find outside of theology.
 
And that's why I am no longer a Christian. Nothing can be proven, and there is very little good to hold fast to that you can't find outside of theology.
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emphasis added

ummm, so how do we know that gravity exists?

Gen
 
I rather though the emphasis was on religion in general and Christianity in particular in his post.
 
Genesis1315 said:
emphasis added

ummm, so how do we know that gravity exists?

Gen
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Note that I didn't say THAT'S WHY I NO LONGER BELIEVE GRAVITY EXISTS.

To avoid further misinterpretation, I will reiterate: NOTHING IN CHRISTIANITY CAN BE PROVEN. To further clarify: You can't prove God exists, You can't prove the Bible is the Word of God. You can't prove miracles occur. Etc.,ad nauseum

Capiche?

As far as gravity goes, that's why it's called the THEORY of Gravity.

If you want to level the playing field, shall we henceforth refer to Christianity as the THEORY of Christianity?
 
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You troublemaker :)

Here's good reasoning for my use of "theory"

A "theory" in science is a very elevated notion. A theory is an idea that has a large body of observational evidence to support it and that has come to be accepted by most scientists in the field of study. I'm sure you've all felt the consequences of the Theory of Gravity when you trip and fall. Yet we call Gravity a "theory" rather than a "fact" because there are no absolutes in scientific understanding. Although gravity is "only a theory," no one I know would doubt its validity enough to walk off a bridge to test it. Theories are always subject to the test of time, and most accepted theories prove in the long run to be correct but not complete, for example, Newton's Theory of Gravity and Einstein's.
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Yeah, I think I agree with that approach. But what of the scientific law then? Doesn't this mean that "true" laws are nonexistant?
 
I guess we're moving away from the idea of concrete laws - until we reach the grand unified theory, of course.
 
I don't believe there ever WAS an idea of "concrete" laws.

That's the beauty of Science, it allows itself to evolve and incorporate new information when it is discovered. Science doesn't say, "THIS IS THE WAY IT IS, SO MOTE IT BE". Science says, "THIS IS THE WAY WE BELIEVE THIS THING TO BE BASED ON THE INFORMATION WE HAVE."
 
hmmm, can't prove that God exists? But doesn't Benny Hinn have the power to heal from God? Hasn't he healed people right on his stage? You mean those aren't miracles?

LOL

Without going into the whole creatism debate, just the fact that there is one planet in the whole universe that can support this life forms called human beings seems pretty impressive

Gen
 
The day we can get a believer to have his arm broken on stage (and independently verified) and have the bone fused right then and there, then I'll believe in faith healing.

Which is not to say that I don't believe that it has the power to help the individual heal themselves, just that it's insufficiently documented to convince a discerning audience.
 
Genesis1315 said:
hmmm, can't prove that God exists? But doesn't Benny Hinn have the power to heal from God? Hasn't he healed people right on his stage? You mean those aren't miracles?

LOL

Without going into the whole creatism debate, just the fact that there is one planet in the whole universe that can support this life forms called human beings seems pretty impressive

Gen
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speaking of that...how do you know that God didn't create other worlds with creations that were made in His image?
 
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