How can an omnibenevolent God allow this to happen?

D

Dark Virtue

New Member
Not sure if you've seen this yet:

BROOKFIELD, Wis. (AP) - A man armed with a handgun opened fire during an evangelical church service at a suburban Milwaukee hotel, killing seven people before taking his own life, police said. Two teenagers and a 72-year-old man were among the victims.

At least two church groups were holding meetings in the Sheraton hotel at the time of the shootings, police said.

The victims were all in the same room Saturday afternoon where officers found the bodies of four people and the gunman. Three others died later at a hospital, Brookfield Police Chief Daniel Tushaus said.

"There is nobody else being sought at this time as a suspect," he said.

The suspect, whose name was not immediately released, was affiliated with the Living Church of God, which had been meeting at the hotel every Saturday morning for four or five years. The group is based in Charlotte, N.C.

Chandra Frazier, who was at the church service, said the gunman started shooting shortly after it began, and that he even stopped to reload.

Frazier said she was sitting in front of a "family he mowed down."

"It was mayhem," she told reporters outside the hotel. "I dove under a chair, the man whose chair I dove under died. I'm asking myself why am I still alive."

Tushaus did not identify the victims but gave approximate ages. Two boys ages 15 and 17, a 72-year-old man and a 55-year-old woman died at the hotel. Three men ranging in age from 44 to 58 died later at a hospital.

Waukesha County's emergency dispatch center was flooded with 911 calls after the shooting, County Executive Dan Finley said. Some hotel guests remained locked in their rooms after police surrounded the building and would not allow anyone to enter or leave.

"We train for these incidents all the time and we hope against hope they never happen, but today was one of those days," Finley said.

After the shootings, police removed a pickup truck from the hotel parking lot.

New Berlin Mayor Telesfore Wysocki said police told him the gunman lived in his community just south of Brookfield. The gunman lived with his mother and sister, who were being interviewed by officers as police collected evidence at their house, Wysocki said.

"We are in total shock and disbelief," the mayor said.

Investigators searched a two-story house in New Berlin, but authorities declined to comment on whether it was connected to the shootings. A news conference was planned Sunday.

At the hotel, a small memorial took shape Saturday evening. Someone placed a red-and-white cross in a snow bank in front of the building. Another person left two stuffed animals and a note.
Click to expand...

LINK

More links with audio and video

This congregation is connected to the church I used to attend, which brought this a little closer to home.

These people were in the process of worshipping God, why would an omnipotent being allow such tragedy to take place during worship to Him???

I can't wrap my brain or my heart around that.
 
First welcome back. You have been missed.

Second. I am very sorry this has hit you so hard. I wish I had the words to offer you something other than that which has already been posted. I will keep hoping for the words, but trust that others will be able to answer this for you.

Gen

p.s. I can re-post if you would like
 
All through history Christians have died for their faith. It started when Christ died on a cross. Peter was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded...This killing was tragic, but what makes it new or different than the Christians who have died throughout history? We can pick individual tragedies all day long and say, 'Why did God allow that to happen?' There is a war going on! It started in the Garden of Eden thousands of years ago and has not stopped since.

God did not create us to be a bunch of robots that get programmed to march to the same tune (oops now we go back to the freewill discussion right? :) ). We live in a world of sin that began when Adam didn't fulfill his duties as a husband by stepping up to the plate and leading his family.

There is no easy answer to your question DV and you know that :D . We're talking about the God who created the universe. Know matter how smart we think we are or how educated we get our reasoning processes are pitiful. Who can know the mind of God? The answer to your question is...noone.

If I remember right you mentioned the tsunami in another thread with the same question attached. I don't believe you'll ever get an answer that will satisfy your human reasoning. Having said that, some good did come of the tsunami. The perceptions of the people in the region toward the United States and therefore to Christianity (even though this is no longer a Christian nation the world perceives it that way) have improved.

You have to remember also DV, that the wages of sin is death. We have all sinned and fall short, therefore deserve death. You have to admit that the plan for salvation that God orchestrated through the millennia was pretty awesome in the way it was done. Did God have to save us...no but through His love; He chose to give us the opportunity.

You’re putting too much weight on happiness on earth. The bible does not teach us that life on earth will be a piece of cake. The earth was cursed for the sin of Adam and hasn't improved in any way since. Until the return of Christ it will remain cursed. There will be death, destruction, disease, pain, evil in every form. What is important is that God gave us a way out that lasts for eternity. Christ paid the price so that after we muck through this cursed world, we will have paradise.

Edit: Maybe I misunderstood your post DV. After reading Gen's response which was written while I was typing mine, I may have answered the wrong way. I thought you were just bringing up a topic for discussion. If your looking for comfort my post is not gonna help...sorry if it sounds callused. It was not meant in that way.
 
Last edited:
It is good to see you, DV.

I am sorry that this has hit you so close to home. (I was always curious what church you were once affiliated with!) One tragedy that I have suffered through left me with lots of great advice, but there were a couple of pieces that have stayed with me and while this one, didn't necessarily bring comfort, it made me understand. No matter what we go through, but more especially trials, we will get bitter or better. I have said it before, the enemy has control of this world. He knew that when he told Jesus he could give him the kingdoms, during Jesus' temptation. For the life of me, I will never understand why bad things happen to good people. I chalk it up to the enemies hand being allowed, for nothing touches us that doesn't first go through our Father, as witnessed in Job. I do know that God works out the enemies havoc to our own good, in His amazing and miraculous way!

I tend to be selfish when I lose a loved one, I want them back! Just remember that any Christians that were involved in this horrid atrocity, are now safe in the arms of Jesus.

Why? I have settled in my heart, DV, I will never know. Nevertheless, I choose to trust Him and that is the only thing that brings me comfort.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Proverbs 3:5
 
Dark Virtue said:
These people were in the process of worshipping God, why would an omnipotent being allow such tragedy to take place during worship to Him???

I can't wrap my brain or my heart around that.
Click to expand...

I sympathize with you, this travesty happened with in Driving distance of my home, and Touched me dearly. A secular friend and myself talked in detail about it.

Why do these things happen? who knows? evil has been afoot in the world since the fall. Where you question God, I blame people, demonic influence and just pure stupidity. People a fallible, impulsive and will do cruel acts.

Why does God allow such horror? Free will maybe, and I do not have an answer that will satisfy you DV. I wish I did, I do not know why it happens, but it will, the bible Clearly states that. And what we see as travesty, when those victims are in heaven holding Lord Jesus Christ and He comforts them, How bad is all that ever befell them when He can ease any pain, any suffering. The dead have it easy, We the living suffer.

This attack, this influence of hellish portion does but one thing, it either brings us closer to God, or separates us from the Father, though, resentment, anger, even hatred.

God did not kill those people, a man did. You can quote the OT till your blue in the face about killing but we are held by the NT and the new convent though the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Devil Lies, Kills, Steals, and Destroys

God Restores and uplifts!!! We will have our trails, God warns us we will, Jesus Preached on it. But it is folly to blame God,

But question all you want, some things we will never know until we stand before the Living God and can ask Why? Lord Jesus, Why? but by that time, we will most likely be imparted that information. I think it will make complete sense then.

Til then we can pray for those involved, those who are hurting due to this travesty, and we will pray for you Dv like we always do. But I know this, God will even take this horrid action and Bring someone to Christ, to forge a family Tighter and stronger in the word. Will there be fall out? maybe, but we can all Pray, the Lord Jesus Christ comes in and Comforts those who are hurting the worst.

We do not fight against flesh and blood. This was a spiritual attack, as clearly as it was a physical slaughter. Life is a battle field , a spiritual one, all actions have consequences. I ask everyone to hold tight and pray for those effected by this.

Just my 2 cents DV, I am sorry if you have any losses in this, I am sorry, your mind cannot wrap around this. Its an attack on the victims and those who hear about it. The Word is clear.

You are in my Prayers
 
I would like to reiterate what has been said here with a couple of verses that I was reminded of last night. Rather knowingly or unknowingly, we will serve one of two maters, The LORD or the enemy. Those are our only two choices. The enemy knows his time is limited, so he will do whatever it takes to make us shake our fists at God.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and e that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Revelation 12:12

The enemy wants your worship. Isaiah 14:12~17 He has it when he can keep you from God; he is sly.
 
MontrezAnthony said:
The Devil Lies, Kills, Steals, and Destroys

God Restores and uplifts!!!
Click to expand...

How did God restore and uplift the lives of those murdered? How did He restore and uplift the family members and friends of those killed?

I understand people die every day in horrible ways, this discussion isn't about Necessary Evil. These people were in the process of WORSHIPPING God. They gathered to worship Him, praise Him. And this is how He treats them? This is how He pays back their worship and praise? This is how He treats their family? Who in their right mind would TURN to God when He let his followers be murdered in the very act of worshipping Him? Of all the places to be murdered, in a church is inconceivable to me. What words do you think were on their lips? Prayer for protection to their God would be my bet. All for nought.

It simply boggles the mind and saddens my heart.
 
Sensitivity? I'm just saying you're back... :confused: You haven't been on since 1-31. :(

Again
Justice delayed is not necessarily justice denied. If we were given exactly what we deserve, none of us would be here right now
Click to expand...

Oh, and I remember some stuff about hell too. many of us have a VERY WRONG concept of hell and who goes there and etc... But, that's for another topic.
 
Hmm... I know double post, but I feel that I should make all my posts very thoughtful and complete. Not just the answers I've been giving you... I will edit THIS post after I finish washing the dishes. Don't worry. I will give you a GOOD explanation for this. This also blends with another topic... You will remember. :p

SA COMING BACK IN 30 MINUTS!
---
*ah forget it...*yawn*****. I'm too tired. 10:34 spanish...

I'll post tommorow.
 
Last edited:
How did God restore and uplift the lives of those murdered? How did He restore and uplift the family members and friends of those killed?

I understand people die every day in horrible ways, this discussion isn't about Necessary Evil. These people were in the process of WORSHIPPING God. They gathered to worship Him, praise Him. And this is how He treats them? This is how He pays back their worship and praise? This is how He treats their family? Who in their right mind would TURN to God when He let his followers be murdered in the very act of worshipping Him? Of all the places to be murdered, in a church is inconceivable to me. What words do you think were on their lips? Prayer for protection to their God would be my bet. All for nought.

It simply boggles the mind and saddens my heart.
Click to expand...

It simply boggles my mind and saddens my heart what great lengths people have allowed evil to spread into their hearts.

Why Bad Things Happen to Good People
Text: Job 13.24-14.2
Introduction

We live in a world full of suffering, pain, and sorrow... When tragedy comes, the agonized cry of the soul is “Why...?"

The parents of an extremely bright and active eight-year-old girl noticed one morning that she seemed unusually tired. Later they became aware that her ankles were swollen so they took her to the doctor. The diagnosis: acute leukemia. Eighteen months and ten days later, she was dead. And her parents cried. “God, why did you take our baby?”

A young housewife noticed that she was getting tired easily. Then one night she stumbled over the threshold of her front door. The next day she went to the doctor. The diagnosis: multiple sclerosis. She was told that she would find it progressively harder to walk; eventually she would become an invalid until she died. Upon hearing the news she broke down and cried: "God, why did you let this happen to me? I have a husband and young children who need me. I have tried to be a good person. I don't deserve this."

Job was a blameless and upright man, a man who feared God. He had been greatly blessed by God with great wealth, ten children, excellent health, and the love and esteem of his neighbors. Suddenly, through an incredible series of events Job lost everything--wealth, children, respect! His anguished cry was, "Why?" "Why was I ever born?" (Job 3.11-19.) "Why didn't God take my life when everything else was taken from me...?" (Job 3.20-26.) "Why has God turned away from me..?" (Job 9.13-24.)

Why do bad things happen to good people...? That is one of the most puzzling of all human problems. Maybe it is the hardest question of life. Why must people suffer...? Why must there be heartache and disappointment...? Why must there be disease and death...? Why does tragedy invade the lives of those who sincerely try to serve God...? How is it that a God who loves us so much would allow suffering to come into our homes...? We want to turn to the scriptures for help in wrestling with the question of Why Bad Things Happen To Good People...


I. Some Faulty and Incomplete Explanations for the Presence of Suffering

Many answers have been given in an attempt to explain the problem of human suffering. Many of these answers are very wrong. The Book of Job illustrates this very plainly. Job's wife, his friends, and his acquaintances grappled with the question of why Job was suffering. They had plausible sounding, glib answers; but they were wrong! Look at the answers they gave to account for Job's suffering. 1

1. "God has sent it.” This was the answer Job's wife gave. She felt that God was causing Job's agony and so she urged: "Curse God and die." (Job 2.9.) People often accept the same explanation for suffering today: "God took my loved one!" "It is God's will" for some tragedy to occur. Natural calamities are called "acts of God." But it is absolutely false to say that all suffering is sent by God!!! Job's sorrows were not inflicted by God but by Satan! It is most emphatically not true that God is responsible for all suffering!

2. "God is punishing you." This was the response of Job's three friends: Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. They were not bad men. They meant well but were tragically mistaken. They argued that all suffering is the direct and sure result of sin. "Whoever perished being innocent?" they asked. (Job 4.7.) They counseled Job to admit that he had sinned and that he deserved what was happening to him! Now, there is sometimes an element of truth in this explanation. Sometimes we do suffer because of sins. Paul told the Corinthians that many of them were weak, sickly, and dying because of their sinful abuse of the Lord's Supper. (1 Corinthians 11.30.) David sinned and as a result his baby son died. (2 Samuel 12.13-14.) Sometimes people do suffer for their sins but we make a grave mistake when we assume that all suffering is the result of sin. When Jesus died on the cross two men died with Him, suffering for their sin. But Jesus did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth. He suffered in innocence. Many people do today. Jesus once healed a man born blind and when asked whose sin was responsible for the man's blindness, He said: " Neither this man sinned, nor his parents, hut... that the works of God might he displayed in him... " (John 9.3.) Innocent people suffer without having deserved it!

3. "God is trying to tell you something." This was the explanation given by a young man named Elihu for Job's trouble. He was impatient with Job and his three friends because they couldn't see what he thought were obvious. "God is trying to teach you a lesson," he said. "Man is chastened with pain." (Job 33.19.) This is sometimes true. God taught Paul humility by refusing to take away his "thorn in the flesh." (2 Corinthians 12.7-9.) But it was not the total answer. It did not apply in the case of Job. It does not always apply today!


II. Why Does God Allow His Children to Suffer?

The Bible gives several insights into this question. 2

1. Some suffering is built into the universe. God made this world in a certain way and in a sense suffering is woven into its very fabric. God has natural laws, which order and maintain our world. Powerful forces are unleashed by the working of these laws. We can get caught in the machinery that drives the universe. If we get in the way of God's natural laws we can get hurt: floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc. Jesus said, "The wind blows and no man knows where it listeth." The way the universe is built allows for some suffering to happen.

2. Some suffering is self-inflicted. God has both spiritual as well as natural laws. When those laws are violated, we suffer the consequences. God made man a creature with freedom of choice. We can choose evil or we can choose good. We can make mistakes, blunders, and wrong choices. And we suffer for it. We speak of breaking God's laws; but actually we don't break God's laws; we disregard God's laws (natural or spiritual) and they break us! We don't "break" the law of gravity by jumping from a huge skyscraper; we disregard it and suffer the consequences!

3. Some suffering is passed on from others. Sometimes our suffering is the result of choices and actions of other people. Other people can misuse their freedom of will in such a way that it harms us! "We have met the enemy is he is us." It is men who riot and rape and kill and lie.. who make guns and grenades and bayonets.. .Men like Herod or Hitler can plunge a whole nation or a whole world into suffering. Because God did not make us senseless robots, but men and women capable of choosing good or evil, we will go on hurting others and being hurt by them.

4. Some suffering represents the rage of Satan. It was Satan who afflicted Job! Paul calls his thorn in the flesh a "messenger of Satan." (2 Cor. 12.7.) The Bible speaks of Satan causing disease (Luke 13.16,) and having the power of death. (Hebrews 2.14.) It was Saran who trashed God's creation by unleashing sin, disease and death on the world. Let's never lose sight of this. Satan hates those who seek to do right and will do all in his power to hinder and oppress them. Suffering and calamity may be in indication that you are on the right track and Satan is trying to derail you!

5. Some suffering is educational. (See James 1.2-3; Romans 5.3-5.) Suffering confers spiritual insight; it can teach us patience and can build character and strength. It can prepare us for greater service. It can knock a lot of nonsense out of us! Illness, for example, may lead us to see things in a clearer light than we ever did when we were going through life without a care! Troubles are the tools that God uses to fashion us for better things.

6. Some suffering is therapeutic. It may make us better people; it may lead us to repentance; it may discipline us spiritually. " It is good for me that l have been afflicted, that I might learn thy statutes." (Psalm 119.71; see Hebrews 12.6-11.) God may permit suffering for the sake of our spiritual health and well-being!

Suffering may arise from a variety of different causes--perhaps from a combination of causes or from causes we cannot even understand. (Job was never really given an explanation for his suffering!) We cannot easily look at any experience of suffering and put our finger on the "why" of it!!! But in a sense why is the wrong question! There is so much we do not know. Suffering is beyond our fullest comprehension. We need to rum to another question that is far more important!


III. How Should We React to Suffering in Our Lives?

1. We must remember that the important thing is not "why" suffering comes, but "how" we meet it! 3 Suffering can make us bitter or better. It will do one of the two. It is up to us! The real question is not "what's behind my suffering?" but "what's in me?" You can use suffering as a tool for improving your life or as an excuse for getting mad at God! A missionary and his wife in Pakistan had a six-month-old baby who became ill with a mysterious fever and died in a single day. A wise man told them: "A tragedy like this is like being plunged into boiling water. If you are an egg, your affliction will make you hard boiled and unresponsive; if you are a potato, you will emerge soft and pliable, and useable." We need to learn to pray when suffering comes, "Oh, Lord, let me be a potato."

2. We must remember that suffering does not defeat or thwart the purposes of God. Hold on to Romans 8.28 - " And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Tragedy, disaster, sorrow, and calamity do not frustrate God's purposes. Our problem is that we look at things from the wrong side. My wife does counted cross stitch designs. If you look at the work from the bottom it seems to be only a tangled mass of threads but on top a beautiful design is being worked out in intricate pattern. God did not send Paul's "thorn in the flesh"--Satan did; but God used it for Paul's good! Paul was a better man because of it. No matter what happens, God can arrange matters so that it fits into His pattern! The poet has said:


My life is but a weaving
Between my Lord and me,
I cannot choose the colors
He worketh steadily.

Oftimes he weaveth sorrows,
And I in foolish pride
Forget he sees the upper
And I the underside.

Nor till the loom is silent
And the shuttles cease to fly
Shall God unroll the canvas
And explain the reason why.

The dark threads are as needful
In the weaver's skillful hand
As the threads of gold and silver
In the pattern He has planned.​

3. We must remember to trust God and rely on Him whatever comes! We do not understand all that happens. We do not have all the facts. Our vision is limited; we see from an earthly vantage point instead of from eternity. We must, therefore, trust in the wisdom, power, and love of God! This is the message of the Book of Job! God didn't tell Job "why"! He said "trust me!"

A farmer watched a mocking bird building her nest in a heap of branches pruned from the apple tree beside the house. All day long the bird toiled; in the evening the farmer destroyed the work she had done--scattering tiny twigs about and trampling them under his feet. The next day the bird patiently began building again. Again at evening time her work was destroyed. Judged by bird standards, the man was cruel. The third day she began her nest again, but this time in the rose bush by the kitchen door. In the evening, the farmer smiled on the bird and her work remained. Day after day she continued to build; the nest was completed; the eggs were laid and warmed beneath her bosom. But long before the time for hatching, the pile of branches from which she had been driven had been removed and burned. Had the far seeing farmer allowed the bird to have her way, all of her nest, her little ones, and her hope for the season would have been destroyed. She did not see beyond one day. He saw the end from the beginning. 4

Since God knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46.10,) we can trust Him in all things--even those which we cannot understand! Jesus said something in a different connection which also applies very well in this connection: "What I do thou knowest not now but thou shalt know hereafter." (John 13.7.)


Conclusion

In this life we "do groan, beinq troubled..." (2 Cor. 5.4.) But we believe that there is a better land--a land where suffering and sorrow are unknown. God has prepared a home for us there and to that home He wishes us to come. Were it not for the heartaches, disappointments and sufferings of this world, we might forget the greater destiny that lies before us. Perhaps the sufferings of this world were designed, in part, to cause us nor to be satisfied here, but to lift our eyes toward that world to come where "He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more." (Rev. 21.4.)

Those who have this hope, need never fear tomorrow! Is this hope yours...? It Can Be!



ENDNOTES

1. cf. Thos. L.Constable, "When God's Silence Is Deafening," Kindred Spirit, (Dallas Theological Seminary), Summer 1980, pp. 14-16.
2. cf. Batsell Barrett Baxter, Great Preachers of Today, "The Problem of Human Suffering," pp. 206-2 16, and Jack Exum, Winning Over Suffering, (tract).
3. cf. Harold S. Kushner, "Why Do Bad Things Happen To Good People?", Reader's Digest, January 1983, pp. 143-146.
Julian Goodpaster, "Trusting God," Family Matters, March 24, 1983, p. 2.
Click to expand...
 
Dark Virtue said:
How did God restore and uplift the lives of those murdered? How did He restore and uplift the family members and friends of those killed?

I understand people die every day in horrible ways, this discussion isn't about Necessary Evil. These people were in the process of WORSHIPPING God. They gathered to worship Him, praise Him. And this is how He treats them? This is how He pays back their worship and praise? This is how He treats their family? Who in their right mind would TURN to God when He let his followers be murdered in the very act of worshipping Him? Of all the places to be murdered, in a church is inconceivable to me. What words do you think were on their lips? Prayer for protection to their God would be my bet. All for nought.

It simply boggles the mind and saddens my heart.
Click to expand...


Your anger is justified DV. And as I said before I have no words that you would accept or that would answer you to your satisfaction. Why did they did when that chick in the south had her capture let her go. Who knows? God Does. If his followers were called up to heaven after that horrible incident, what could be better than heaven? I would have to say their praise and worship got them their due reward, Life eternal with Father God. And the Living victims The will either have to cling to the word or the will be strayed from it. It will either bring them closer to God or it will push them away by taking offense at God.

You have this problem with God because you do not believing a personal God of the Bible, You Do not have Jesus Christ in your heart. God allow it, YES, when you can ease every suffering you can allow such things because Father God can take them away!

My God, the God of the Bible, The Lord Jesus Christ tells me Hardships are bound to come. I am to stand on the word in FAITH, not reason or intelligence but Faith, and thru my Faith in Lord Jesus Christ and belief in his promises in the New Testament, I know this was a despicable attack on the Children of God and the Church to do exactly what you are in aright now an offense with God.

God did not kill those folks; he allowed them to come to their true homes. Where he could wipe the tears of their eyes. If those living victims would hold tight to the word and pray and not take up offenses God will ease the burden they carry as well, and through them the Kingdom of God will be furthered. Through them they will have the constitution to help others thru senseless acts of Violence.

My Heart goes out to you DV, I am sad you have this anger at God. There is no necessary Evil in the world, there is just evil. And the bible explains this. You know that.

Peace on you Brother
 
GP, thank you for sharing that. I will always keep it as a reminder through trials, and hopefully to help others.


The enemy will use anything he can to keep us from God, DV; I wish you could understand this.

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. II Corinthians 4:4
 
Peon, as I previously stated, this thread isn't about the concept of Necessary Evil.

This is about a supposedly omnibenevolent God allowing a massacre to happen to His followers in the process of worshipping Him.

Wouldn't you think that would be the safest place in the world?

Think of the simple miracles that could have happened.

The gunman could have died peacefully in his sleep the night before.

The gunman could have died of an anurism the moment he drew his pistol.

The pistol could have misfired or jammed.

I could go on and on, but God did absolutely NOTHING.

THAT is my point.

Some have said that people will inexplicably be drawn to Christianity because of this tragedy. HOGWASH! Think of how many more would be drawn if God had saved His people in the middle of worshipping Him.
 
MontrezAnthony said:
You have this problem with God because you do not believing a personal God of the Bible, You Do not have Jesus Christ in your heart.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but how can you expect people to invite Christ into their heart when he turned his back on his followers, WHILE THEY WERE PRAISING HIM?

God allow it, YES, when you can ease every suffering you can allow such things because Father God can take them away!
Click to expand...

If God can ease EVERY suffering, why not do so every now and then? ESPECIALLY to people that are in the process of worshipping Him.

My God, the God of the Bible, The Lord Jesus Christ tells me Hardships are bound to come. I am to stand on the word in FAITH, not reason or intelligence but Faith, and thru my Faith in Lord Jesus Christ and belief in his promises in the New Testament, I know this was a despicable attack on the Children of God and the Church to do exactly what you are in aright now an offense with God.
Click to expand...

What this situation should tell each and every one of us, believer and nonbeliever alike, is that God WILL NOT save you from physical harm. Why should God help YOU when He wouldn't help those that needed Him most, even though they had come together to worship Him?

God did not kill those folks
Click to expand...

No, but He allowed it to happen.

There is no necessary Evil in the world, there is just evil. And the bible explains this. You know that.
Click to expand...

You are very right. If an omnimax God exists, this is absolutely no need or a justification for evil.
 
If I had a choice of how I would die, I want to be taking up at the sound of God's trumpet, or peacefully in my sleep, or at church, hopefully instantaneously, (even better if the trump sounds while I am there). So if something like this were to happen to me, please don't get angry at God, just say, "She died where her heart desired to be."

Death is a joyful thing for the Christian! I don't expect a non-Christian to understand but our death is precious to the LORD. Psalm 23 says to me that God is with us in the valley of the shadow of death, I cannot help but to believe that it will be precious for us, also.

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Psalm 116:15
 
Dark Virtue said:
Peon, as I previously stated, this thread isn't about the concept of Necessary Evil.

This is about a supposedly omnibenevolent God allowing a massacre to happen to His followers in the process of worshipping Him.

Wouldn't you think that would be the safest place in the world?

Think of the simple miracles that could have happened.

The gunman could have died peacefully in his sleep the night before.

The gunman could have died of an anurism the moment he drew his pistol.

The pistol could have misfired or jammed.

I could go on and on, but God did absolutely NOTHING.

THAT is my point.

Some have said that people will inexplicably be drawn to Christianity because of this tragedy. HOGWASH! Think of how many more would be drawn if God had saved His people in the middle of worshipping Him.
Click to expand...


Had his gun jammed, would you attribute it to a miracle of God or simply a mechanical malfunction, asking us to prove it was a miracle?

Why does God have to perform miracles the way you think they should be performed, in the manner you dictate?

Are you angry that evil has so invaded our lives that people are willing to kill each other without regard, or are you just blaming God to justify your continued denial of Gods existance?

===
 
Last edited:
::SIGH::

I do not DENY God's existence, why is that such a hard concept for you to grasp?

Nor do I deny that evil exists, it is part of man's nature.

I am simply stating that if God does exist, WHY would He allow tragedies such as this to happen to people that were in the process of WORSHIPPING Him?

If the man's gun had jammed, would I have thought it was a miracle? Maybe not, most probably not. But if it had, and if churches in Indonesia were spared from the flood full of worshippers, etc, etc, I'd be a fool not to connect the dots.

However, there are no dots to connect.
 
But yes it is sad. It is unfair. It is not right. WHY would He allow tragedies such as this to happen to people that were in the process of WORSHIPPING Him?

He is not a God like a human. He is much more wise. Imagine this:

Imagine your SMARTEST "idol" maybe Einstein? Someone smart...

THen imagine being locked up with him in a room for 30 yrs. Well, you would not really understand much of what the heck he was doing unless he told you eventually... This is not a really good parable, but you get the idea...

God is infinitely beyond human wisdom
Click to expand...

Note: INFINITE! But yes, it is wrong. It is sad. It is horrible. It shouldn't happen, but our world is not right.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top