Thoughts heaven, hell, and eternity

[reets]

One of my acquaintances on MSN asked me about my status which was "Save sorrow for the souls in doubt". He asked what "souls in doubt" were and i said people that have not been saved and will spend eternity in hell.

His response was that in the end everyone will be saved because that is God's will and God gets what he wants. He quoted 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and the below video as "proof".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At3pkTrKeF8


My question is: Is my point of view on the topic wrong/misinformed and what do others think of the topic?

 

[Jethiel]

I believe this is a strong undercurrent that the enemy is using to undermine the Gospel in all honesty. The most popular person asking these same questions without giving foundational answers is Rob Bell. Questioning God's judgement seems to be the popular thing these days. If there were no consequences for humanity's sin then why have a redemption story? Why would God have to send his Son for our atonement if He's going to make the decision for those that reject Him anyway? Romans 10:9 is quite clear about God's plan in saving us. Yes, He desires for everyone to be saved; to come to a decision to accept God's gift to them. People that want to excuse the necessity to accept Christ do so in direct contradiction to the Bible. This is just part of the 'tolerance' mode of our society. Believe what you want to, leave everyone else alone to believe what they will, and God will make everyone come with Him anyway. Cow cookies

The gentleman in the video is using Eisogesis rather than Exogesis which in a nutshell means he's subjectively reading meaning into a passage of scripture rather than pulling meaning out of a text. The most popular example of this in modern day would be Mormonism. He is reading something into it that is not intended. Bending meanings, metaphors and intentions can make the Bible say almost anything you want (hence so many denominations based around preference and the countless offshoots of cults) but making the parable of the 99 say that all humanity is saved regardless of our free wills would then ignore the many other parables that teach on God's mercy and our need for a Saviour. House on sand/house on the rock, sheep and goats, prodigal son, bread of life, Good Sheppard, etc.

What I do really appreciate is that these types of conversations should push us deeper into our Bibles and our understanding of God's love. I will gladly chat with anyone that has questions, comments, refutes as I dearly love you all and will try to do my best to represent the Gospel for what it says. I am not the strongest apologetic around (some other great members in the guild) but if I cannot answer a question I will help you seek out the answer.

Blessings and peace,

Joe

 

[Durruck]

I'm with Joe. That's a horrid twisting of the Gospel. Coincidentally, twisting the Truth is one of the enemy's favorite tricks. Use just enough of the right words to cause doubt and confusion. It all started in Genesis 3, and we've been falling for it ever since.

I have heard more about people claiming that everyone will be cleansed especially following Rob Bell's book Love Wins coming out. A careful reviewer will find that Bell does a lot of Eisegesis in that book as well - verses clearly out of context, metaphors that are likely skewed beyond the authorial intention. I mean, while we're at it, why not just claim some heresy such as there are people that don't need Jesus to get to Heaven? Jesus did say that he wasn't here for the healthy, but the sick (Mt 9:12, Lk 5:31, Mk 2:17). Could there be healthy among us that don't need healing?

The obvious answer is "NO" but there could be someone that twists the verse to claim that.

You don't have to be a master of Apologetics to have civil discourse. Talk to the person, find out why they believe that we are all going to Heaven... then look up the verses, read commentaries, ask your pastor to explain them. Get a good solid understanding of why the original interpretation was wrong and discuss it with the person that was following a bad source.

 

[Durruck]

Watching the video made me gag. He wants to talk about the side of Jesus that was nice, flowery, and loving. But here's the other side of it: Jesus talks more about condemnation and separation more than any other person in the New Testament. Seriously, read Matthew 25:31-46. If that doesn't prove there will be a judgement and separation, nothing does.

 

[Chaska]

I would like to say a few things on the subject of Rob Bell and judgement. I have read a lot of what Rob Bell has written and I have been listening to his interviews and such and following it lately. I've also read some critic reviews. I would say that I agree with what Rob Bell has to say, it is my experience that he does look at things in context and I have found it a freeing perspective. Anyway, back on topic: Judgement.

Rob Bell never says 'there is no judgement or consequences for sin'. I have heard him many times say that we need God to judge and put an end to sin. Also, he will deny strongly that God just swoops down and makes everyone Christians (ignoring free will and therefore ignoring true love for people) which is kind of the feeling I got from the video. Instead, people suffer the hell of the consequences of sin every day. Whenever there is refusal of God and His way there is an experience of hell. If you want big examples you can look at the Holocaust and the the woman who has just been gang raped or if you want small examples you can look even in your own self when you know you are not trusting God with something and so you suffer torment from it.

In the book, I would say Bell didn't do a great job of explaining eternity. From listening to him discus this after the book was published, I have summarized for myself that what he is saying about eternity is that eternal is out side of time and not subject to it. Therefore it is in the future, in the past, the present and continues after death. The separation is there and here. God has given us Christ to get past it. God's grace, love and forgiveness is there and here. So at a point of time if a soul decides to trust God then that soul gives up the eternal death and embraces the eternal life.

There is then the conclusion that there is an urgency to accepting Christ's redemption and sharing the good news that it's there. The separation is real and it causes great suffering. The answer to our suffering and sin is Jesus' amazing love and forgiveness. And when we trust God with all of that we are freed and our natural response will be pursue our spiritual gifts.

I would say that, at the time of writing Love Wins Rob Bell came up to the line of heresy and looked at what was on the other side. I would also say, that since then, Rob Bell has grown and moved away from that 'heresy line'.

I would recommend looking at Love Wins. If you don't agree with what he has to say, you will at least take a look at the idea that 'God is Love' and 'God is all-powerful' and how does that jive with your perspective.