The "weaker vessel"...

E

Eon

New Member
Something that Marcylene said in the thread on TV Pastors moved me to write a post to that thread on the subject of women as the "Weaker Vessel".

Then I decided that rather than derail an existing thread I'd better post a new one. To avert the wrath of Gen. ;)

So here we go... Many sects of Christianity won't allow women priests. In addition the old school interpretation of original sin has the woman marked down as the naive and gullible one who isn't strong enough to resist tempation and therefore, considered the "weaker vessel".

This is the whole basis of the subjugation of women by patriarchal Judaic religions - well that and the whole Lilith thing. Personally I think Lilith had a crystal ball, looked at the deal that Christian women were going to get in the future and voted with her feet. More power to her arm, I say. ;)

Anyway - how do Christian women feel about this? Are you willing to take a secondary role in society and in the home, especially? Do you feel you don't have what it takes to be Priest? Christian guys - how do you feel about women? Are they inferior - do you expect to be in charge once you get married?
 
Then I decided that rather than derail an existing thread I'd better post a new one. To avert the wrath of Gen.
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the wrath of gen....mmmmmm... :p

God made women as helpers to men, not leaders. From the time of the Fall, wives are to be dominated by their husbands. Now, that is not to say the my husband can do anything and I am to simply say Yes Dear. But, as long as he is acting in a Godly manner I am to submit to his requests and honor them. I am to respect him as well as his position of leadership.

Gen

p.s. Must put the disclaimer here, since my hubby is on these boards. It is easier to type what we are supposed to do rather than do it. Proverbs 31 comes in to play quite a bit too (which seems to be missing from my Bible :p )
 
I don't necessarily believe or think that women these days take much of a 'secondary role'...just thinking how women have come a long way compared to the 'old'n days'...
 
No, I don't think that they DO so much anymore. There are many women who make great leaders - and not just these days.

I'm English and arguably our two best rulers were Queen Elizabeth I and Empress Victoria. That was two women who led ably - no weaker vessel stuff there.

However according to the bible they are secondary.
 
Can we get some Biblical references? I know I've seen some of the verses before but I can't remember where.

Thus far I can only find Ephesians 5:22-33 and 1 Peter 3:1-7, but that only deals with spouses and not of leadership.
 
1Timothy 2:

9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

(Which I must admit puts me in a challenging situation as a Moderator of RD :) )


11 Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.

and then there is also Proverbs 31.
 
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On the subject of the "weaker" sex, as spoken by C.S. Lewis' characters Orual and Ansit in the novel Till We Have Faces:
"Do you tell me a strong man'd break under the burden a woman's bearing still?"

"Who that knows men would doubt it? They're harder, but we're tougher. They do not live longer than we. They do not weather a sickness better. Men are brittle."
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Genesis1315 said:
(Which I must admit puts me in a challenging situation as a Moderator of RD :) )
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Remember that the Christian Gamers Alliance (and Tribe of Judah, also) are not churches and, as such, are not governed by the rules governing churches. (They are ministries, though; there are guidelines in place to ensure we stay focused on glorifying God and doing His will.) I have no trouble appointing a capable female as quickly as a capable male to a leadership position.
 
Not that I don't support your viewpoint, Tek, but the biblical versus make no mention of Church leadership - they reference leadership per se.
 
Thanks for the verse, gen. I'm personally very bothered by it though because I know that a woman is more than capable of being a leader, especially in today's world with more women taking power. I personally would be okay with a woman in a leadership position, but not as a pastor.

Are women okay with this?

To what degree can you get out of it? Can a woman be considered a leader, but still serve under a man (The man being the overall leader, such as a pastor)?

Are Christians nowadays wrong for allowing women to take a more active role into leadership?

Does verse 15 mean that the only purpose women serve is for childbirth?
 
Any guys in here had a woman teacher? Any of you guys consider walking out of a seminar or training course because your instructor was female? Any guys who would immediately suspend driving lessons or flying lessons or scuba or sport lessons because your coach was female?

Anybody here think female Judges, Policewomen, military officers, senators and congresswomen should step down immediately?

I suppose what I'm really asking is, are there any misogynistic screwballs in here?
 
Main Entry: mi·sog·y·nis·tic
Pronunciation: m&-"säj-&-'nis-tik
Function: adjective
: having or showing a hatred and distrust of women

Just for clarification. I had to look up the word since I had no clue what it meant

Not sure if screwballs is the right word for this though.

Gen
 
screw·ball ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skrbôl)
n.
Baseball. A pitched ball that curves in the direction opposite to that of a normal curve ball.
Slang. An eccentric, impulsively whimsical, or irrational person.
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It's quite apropos if you couch it in the latter terms. It stops short of insane or mad but goes a little further than questionable. Can you really take exception to "impulsively whimsical"?
 
From Wikipedia :

Biblical arguments for equal roles

The following are just a few of the scriptural references that can be interpreted to allow greater equality between men and women:
Jesus said very little about the roles of men and women, but the way he acted shows how he considered the subject. In John 4:7 we find him talking to an unrelated woman as an equal, something no Jewish or Roman male of that day would lower himself to do. He talks with the Samaritan women at the well, and treats her with respect, though her own neighbors obviously treat her with disdain.
In Luke 8:1-3 and several other passages, we see that Jesus had women disciples.
Jesus calls a woman, Mary Magdalene to be the first witness to carry the good news of the resurrection. This is extraordinary, and notable with regard to the fact that women were not allowed to be witnesses in legal proceedings under rabbinical law as they were said to be "all liars." Many women ministers have held this to be the main justification for their equal calling.
In Acts 2:14-18, in Peter's sermon at the initiation of the modern church, he quotes the prophet Joel about the pouring out of the Spirit in the last days. Jesus had promised the Holy Spirit, and said that He would guide us into all truth. The benefits of the Spirit are shared equally by men and women. In fact, both sons and daughters will prophesy. (Prophecy here is not so much a foretelling of the future, rather the primary meaning is to speak for God.)
Paul is accompanied by house-church leaders Priscilla and Aquilla. Priscilla, a female, is a dominant figure in Paul's ministry and leads over Aquilla.
A woman named Junia (man named Junias is also possible interpretation according to the original greek) is mentioned of note among the apostles (KJV) Romans 16:7.
There are also numerous accounts of female deaconesses, elders and bishops.
Pliny the Younger, in a correspondence to Emperor Trajan of Rome, writes of two female deaconesses whom he had tortured.
In Galatians 3:27-29, the author (Paul) makes a blanket statement that baptism into Christ constitutes putting on or clothing one's self with Christ. This passage :
..."There is neither Jew nor Greek, no bondservant or freedman, neither Man nor Woman, for you are all one in Christ"

This effectively removes all conditions of separation based on race, gender, and social status e. g. slave or free. According to Paul, one's faith in Christ makes one an equal heir, as a descendant of Abraham, thus becoming one in Christ Jesus.

On the other hand, Conservative Christians argue that this passage speaks only of the new ease of salvation and not of right to church office. They assert that when speaking of salvation we are all "one" in Christ Jesus, but when speaking of church office, women are excluded by, most notably, 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 35.

Two passages, which do not specifically mention women, are seen to also support any person who does Christ's work. In Mark 9:38 the disciples report to Jesus that someone is casting out demons in his name. They said they forbade him, because he is not "one of us." Jesus tells the disciples to leave him alone. Those who are not against us are for us, he says. Even a cup of water given in Jesus' name should not be opposed and will have its reward.

Jesus' stories often centered on deeds of compassion and generosity, traits often associated with womankind. An example is the Parable of the widow's mite, in which a tiny gift from an impoverished woman is regarded by Christ as being a generous gift, equal with a lavish gift from a rich man.

Also, much of the imagery in the Bible depicts the Church as a bride, with Jesus Christ as the bridegroom. Therefore, every woman is in some sense an icon of the Christian Church. Men are also encouraged to live as icons of Christ, but to imitate Christ's humility and laying down of his life, rather than attempting to imitate Christ's lordship. See Ephesians 5.
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Biblical arguments for distinct gender roles
Introduction:


The scripture endorses different functions/roles between men and women in the home. (1 Peter 3:1-6; Eph 5:22, 25; Titus 2:4; Colossians 3:18-19). In general, men are exhorted to lead with love and consideration, while women are told to submit with loving reverence. There is no clear instance where these roles are reversed within the context of the home. Both Paul and Peter based these principles on Old Testament Theology as opposed to particular cultural traditions. (1 Peter 3:1-6; 1 Corinthians 11:1-16; 1 Timothy 2:12; 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 ). Their teachings were expected to be practiced in all Christian Churches. ( 1 Timothy 2:12; 3:15-16 ;1 Corinthians 14:33-38 ; 1 Corinthians 11:1-16). Early church documents also reveal that the orignal hearers interpreted these teachings quite literally. (http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf04/anf04-09.htm)Apostolic churches like the Orthodox and Catholic's also maintain teachings of gender distinction as well as most churches throughout church history.(http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg1.htm


The apostle Paul taught that the same principles apply in a formal church setting:

1. Paul addresses women in formal church settings to keep silent based on Torah law regarding female subjugation to men (1 Cor 14:34-35).

2. Women are told to learn in silence with attitude of subjection in formal church settings based on creation order. (1 Timothy 2:12-15)

3. Women are restricted from teaching and "usurping" authority over men in formal church settings for same above reason with ties to family order. (1 Timothy 2:12-15)

4. Women seem not to be considered in verses that discuss the criteria for selecting bishops and deacons. (Titus 1:5-, 1 Timothy 3:1-12,14-15)

5. Jesus did not choose any women to be apostles. After Jesus' ascension, the apostles seem not to have considered female candidates when choosing a replacement for Judas, or when choosing seven leaders (Luke 6:13; Acts 1:14-26; Acts 6:3)

6. These exhortations were given to various church contexts and to traveling evangelists (Timothy, Titus) which were told to remain true to these specific teachings (removing the argument that they were cultural prescriptions), letters often circulated to all the churches, coincided (within the texts themselves) with teachings regarding family order, coincided with Torah, there is a consistency of doctrine in all letters of the NT, coincides with early church documents and traditions, and noted by Paul to be the commands of the Lord and traditions amongst "all the churches of God." (Areas: Corinth, Ephesus, Crete,etc..; 1 Corinthians 11:1-16; 1 Corinthians 14:33-38; 1 Timothy 3:14-15)


Other notes: Within scripture, we can also find examples where women are allowed to speak in formal church settings although with the condition that they are veiled. (1 Cor 11:1-16) This reveals that the ruling principle is not limitation, but that ministry should be done with an attitude of reverence and submission to those in authority, and Gods design and order. Paul reveals through the guidelines and principles of gender distinction that God is concerned with the preservation of family, creation, and church order. That is why men's leadership roles are formally endorsed throughout the pages of scripture as opposed to women's.

However, in scripture, one can find that outside contexts of formality, women operate in many gifts of the Spirit like evangelizing, prophesying, serving, praying, teaching, laboring in ministry, preaching.(John 4:28-30; 1 Cor 11:1-16; Matt 27:55; Acts 1:14; Acts 18:26; Phil 4:3; Luke 2:36-38)

'Family'

1 Peter 3:1-6

Ephesians 5:22

Ephesians 5:25

Titus 2:4

Colossians 3:18-19


'Church'

1 Corinthians 14:34

1 Timothy 2:12; 3:15-16

1 Corinthians 14:33-38

Titus 1:5-9

1 Timothy 3:1-12,14-15
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So what do people make of this? Just a note, I removed the text from the verses in the second quote, because it was appearing with wierd symbols and I'm too lazy to edit it.
 
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Let me add....

Old Testament Women Leaders


Miriam: Exodus 15, Micah 6:4 comments on her significance, placing her next to Moses and Aaron.


Deborah: Judges 4 describes her military and spiritual authority


Huldah: 2 Kings 22:14-22 describes her status as prophet, instructing all of Israel


While women leaders are clearly more rare than male leaders, the Old Testament never disqualifies a woman for leadership or conditions her leadership in any way.



Jesus and Women


In general, Jesus' interaction with women sharply differed from the standard practice of rabbis of the day, which was to avoid women as sources of temptation and regard them as unfit for instruction (much less leadership). Examples of Jesus instructing women are numerous (Luke 10:39, Matthew 15:21-28, etc.). Women clearly had status as followers of Jesus (Matt. 27: 55-59, Mark 15:40-41, etc.) In short, Jesus


More importantly, Jesus regarded women as fit for delivering news about himself to other men. For instance, John 4 describes the Samaritan women as evangelist to an entire community. The most glaring example is, of course, the resurrection. Jesus entrusts this most important news to women before any man (in contrast to Jewish law that denied validity to a women's testimony).


Early Church


Historically, the Gospel's explosive growth is attriubted to its quick and widespread acceptance among women. Its message of the unity and equality of believers was taken up by women and the Biblical accounts of the early church seem to place great emphasis on the role of women (i.e. Acts 5:14, 8:12, 16:13-15, etc.). In Acts 1:14, women are present at Pentecost to receive the full gifts of the Holy Spirit (which include apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, etc.). Peter explains this phenomenon by referring to Joel's prophecy that the Spirit would be poured out regardless of any distinction (Acts 2:16-17). Women are important enough in the church to be targets of persecution along with men (Acts 8:3, 9:12).


Women also served as "patrons" of the early church. "Patrons" in 1st century society were more than just hosts or givers of money; they had social authority and respect that could be significant. Women patrons include Lydia (Acts 16: 40), Chloe (1 Cor. 1:11), Nympha (Col. 4:15). 1 Pet. 5:13 and 2 John 1 describes "elect" women.


More specifically, women are listed as prophets in Acts 1:8-9 and 1 Cor. 11:5. Prophets clearly had authority to teach and preach (Ephesians 4:11-13, 1 Cor. 12:28). In Acts 18: 24-28, Priscilla, elsewhere listed as a "coworker" of Paul in Rom 16:3, has enough of Paul-like authority to explicitly rebuke and correct the teaching of Apollos (who elsewhere is described as an "apostle" in 1 Cor. 3-4). The "coworker" label clearly includes oversight and teaching authority (1 Cor. 16:16-18 and 1 Thess. 5:12). Other women bearing this role are Eudia and Synthiche (Phil. 4:2-3).


Romans 16 lists 27 leaders, 7 of them women. The list seems to make no distinction between women and men leaders, listing both men and women for the same role. Key ones include Phoebe as "deacon" (see 1 Tim. 3 for the authority of a deacon) and Junia as an "apostle." The response that those were married women who derived authority from their husband seems ill founded since the listings give greater prominence to the wife over the husband and also because Paul elsewhere encourages women to remain single to better serve (1Cor. 7:34). Nowhere does Paul require a woman to marry a man in authority to be a leader herself.
 
OK...I guess it's time for this dinosaur to come out of the woodwork:)

Eon said:
In addition the old school interpretation of original sin has the woman marked down as the naive and gullible one who isn't strong enough to resist tempation and therefore, considered the "weaker vessel".
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Yes she was weak, naive, and gullible:) But on the other hand...if the man had been doing his job as the head of the household, he could have stopped it...

Eon said:
Christian guys - how do you feel about women? Are they inferior - do you expect to be in charge once you get married?
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No women are not inferior, they just have different roles than men. My wife is a housewife...opps I meant homemaker or is that domestic engineer? lol (boy society sure has convinced us that housewife is bad). She does a great job in her role. We homeschool our children and she does a great job of coordinating that along with keeping up the house and being a great helper to me.

As to expecting to be in charge once I got married...in a since yes. Before we discussed marriage the topic of what we believed to be the role of a man and the role of a woman was discussed in detail. I did expect to be the head of the household and I would not have married my wife if I did not believed she would take her role as a wife biblically. My wife is awesome bye the way and often performs her part of the deal better than I do mine.

Now having said that, rather than using your words and saying that 'I expect to be in charge' I prefer the wording 'I expect to be the head of the household' and I am. A lot of responsibility comes with being the head of the household. It is not sitting in front of the TV watching football saying 'honey bring me a beer'. Your families happiness, prosperity, and faith are your responsibility when you take on that role.

Eon said:
I'm English and arguably our two best rulers were Queen Elizabeth I and Empress Victoria. That was two women who led ably - no weaker vessel stuff there.
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Hey what about Margarat Thatcher? I think she did an OK job too:)

Eon said:
Anybody here think female Judges, Policewomen, military officers, senators and congresswomen should step down immediately?
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Yes.

Eon said:
I suppose what I'm really asking is, are there any misogynistic screwballs in here?
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lol...I don't have a hatred or distrust of women:) I have a very deep respect and love for them. But I also believe that we have different roles.

Careful kevman4christ you are making a very large stretch on some of those verses. Much of what is in that post is out of context.

I have read several of your posts and agree with you on most things but I have to disagree with some of your last post in this thread.

*Didasko slinks away before the rotten vegetables start flying his way*
 
You're aware that we could have had this exact same discussion regarding Blacks and Whites in certain parts of the US only 60 years ago?
 
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