Red5 - What are they up to?

Lloren

Lloren

Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
Many eons ago some of the core creators of WoW split off from Blizzard to start their own company called Red5 studios. They have been working under the radar to build some sort of "persistent world" MMO, but have been very hush hush about what they are doing.

Anyone have any good ideas or guesses? I'm really excited to see what they are doing.

http://www.red5studios.com/
 
Lloren said:
Many eons ago some of the core creators of WoW split off from Blizzard to start their own company called Red5 studios. They have been working under the radar to build some sort of "persistent world" MMO, but have been very hush hush about what they are doing.

Anyone have any good ideas or guesses? I'm really excited to see what they are doing.

http://www.red5studios.com/
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I used to get excited about under the radar people who made this awesome game then left and made their own studio secret projects, but time and time again, the lack of finances and support makes for CRAPPY games... Darkfall anyone?

I don't think this will go much of anywhere...mainly from being let down by similar situations in the past... Asheron's Call was the BEST MMORPG I have ever played, and MOST of the Devs came together to make Darkfall... Darkfall was what they wanted, but do to lack to financial support from being independent it really hurt the game, and the sub base shows... And having to combat against Guild Wars 2, SW:ToR, FFXIV, and Cataclyism...that is a hard lineup to beat, and now they Devs are actually getting smart and giving use DECENT content in this upcoming MMOs, because to be frankly honest, up until now, MMORPGs haven't changed in over 10 years...rinse and repeat...give up something new...they can call WoW and Lorto next gen MMOs, but they are nothing but a grind with no point... The true future to MMOs is a point, and being about the journey AND the endgame... In order to make an MMORPG I would be willing to pay for they will have to make it more like an RPG, and a way to go through the endgame with less than 10 people...and actually make the ENTIRE game fun, and not feel like work... Which NO MMORPG currently offers... Games are about FUN, NOT about work...so what the heck happened??? ...and even the very casual super easy it's boring WoW requires you to drop the fun and work a bit...(before bailing WoW I had played it for over 5 years and raided most endgame content)... No one will win me over with an MMO just calling it persistent, they will have to make it an fun game to play, from start to finish...like most console games...and when this Devs learn this SIMPLE concept of making their games fun...they will win... I mean, can't they learn anything from regular RPGs...well...in 11 years they haven't... Blizzard and their Devs are LAME...as is Turbine...as is EVERY other game company out there making MMOs... The ONLY company that has a chance at making a fun game is Bioware, but they are already going back on their promises with SW:ToR...so we will see... I am kinda holding my breath for GW2...but we will see with that as well...

Well...wall of text crits you for 99,999...enjoy my rant...

EDIT: But on subject...if they make a fun game...WOOT!
 
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Shanghai, China – March 22, 2010. The9 Limited (NASDAQ: NCTY) (“The9”), an online game developer and operator in China, and Red 5 Studios, Inc. (“Red 5”), an online game developer in the United States, today jointly announced that they have entered into a definitive investment agreement pursuant to which The9 will invest a total amount of approximately US$20 million for a majority interest in Red 5.
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I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

EDIT: And don't forget the 10 other companies (or former companies) that are/were comprised of former Blizzard employees.
 
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XionTawa said:
Well...wall of text crits you for 99,999...enjoy my rant...
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One person's work is another person's play. Or to put it in game terms, one person's grindfest is another's idea of good fun. This appears in WoW, where to me, the endgame raids become a grind all their own, and don't forget your dailies... But to the vast majority of users, the game starts when you get to that level (well for me, it began when I hit WotLK, but that's a different discussion). There's always something a bit more to strive for (ie, that next piece of gear or that title) either Raiding or Arenas.

In EVE the differences in what people think is fun, and what people think is work is very apparent. I think Mining is a bore. I like Industry. I'm indifferent to the PvP and Exploration (yes, there is a niche for the exploration minded). Others think anything is boring if they aren't blowing each other to bit in fights that take large alliances months to recoup from monetarily. Others like the pseudo-relaxing aspect of sitting there semi-afk mining away at rocks all day, and don't intend to really branch into anything else.

The single most important aspect of an MMO is for the developers to have a clear vision of what they want to do with the game. When a developer loses sight of that vision for their game, that is when an MMO begins to flounder. It is impossible to please everyone, and attempting to do so will only lead to a subpar game. It IS possible to please general subsets of people, as EVE and WoW clearly show, but it is impossible to get them all.

Also what needs to be addressed is the idea that the number of people playing an MMO determines its success or failure. Obviously when you have millions of people playing your game, you've done it right, but when your core base isn't in the millions doesn't mean you've failed. I haven't played Darkfall (I actually just now noticed they've recently added a free trial, so I'll probably check it out), but from what I've seen and heard it could be considered a successful game. As long as the developers stick to their vision for it, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't continue to see long-term continued growth -which I believe is the very definition of successful for an MMO.

And more on topic... I don't really care about who belongs to who so long as I get that 40k MMO sometime soon. :D
 
Elader Arkon said:
One person's work is another person's play. Or to put it in game terms, one person's grindfest is another's idea of good fun. This appears in WoW, where to me, the endgame raids become a grind all their own, and don't forget your dailies... But to the vast majority of users, the game starts when you get to that level (well for me, it began when I hit WotLK, but that's a different discussion). There's always something a bit more to strive for (ie, that next piece of gear or that title) either Raiding or Arenas.

In EVE the differences in what people think is fun, and what people think is work is very apparent. I think Mining is a bore. I like Industry. I'm indifferent to the PvP and Exploration (yes, there is a niche for the exploration minded). Others think anything is boring if they aren't blowing each other to bit in fights that take large alliances months to recoup from monetarily. Others like the pseudo-relaxing aspect of sitting there semi-afk mining away at rocks all day, and don't intend to really branch into anything else.

The single most important aspect of an MMO is for the developers to have a clear vision of what they want to do with the game. When a developer loses sight of that vision for their game, that is when an MMO begins to flounder. It is impossible to please everyone, and attempting to do so will only lead to a subpar game. It IS possible to please general subsets of people, as EVE and WoW clearly show, but it is impossible to get them all.

Also what needs to be addressed is the idea that the number of people playing an MMO determines its success or failure. Obviously when you have millions of people playing your game, you've done it right, but when your core base isn't in the millions doesn't mean you've failed. I haven't played Darkfall (I actually just now noticed they've recently added a free trial, so I'll probably check it out), but from what I've seen and heard it could be considered a successful game. As long as the developers stick to their vision for it, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't continue to see long-term continued growth -which I believe is the very definition of successful for an MMO.

And more on topic... I don't really care about who belongs to who so long as I get that 40k MMO sometime soon. :D
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My biggest argument with the current MMORPG games, is why do they call them RPGs when they are NOTHING like RPGs...now you can break down meaning RPG and call them RPGs, but the RPG games I have always played even the Co-RPGs or even the M-RPGs are much better story rich and actually include you into the story...and so much more... WoW and other top MMORPGs are nothing like an RPG...and why not...they should call it an MMOG...not an MMORPG... One thing the GW2 devs said is that why do we have all these MMORPG games that are nothing like our meaning of RPG? ...Should they be more like an RPG first...then work on the MMO? Which is why I am holding my breath for GW2...
 
XionTawa said:
My biggest argument with the current MMORPG games, is why do they call them RPGs when they are NOTHING like RPGs...now you can break down meaning RPG and call them RPGs, but the RPG games I have always played even the Co-RPGs or even the M-RPGs are much better story rich and actually include you into the story...and so much more... WoW and other top MMORPGs are nothing like an RPG...and why not...they should call it an MMOG...not an MMORPG... One thing the GW2 devs said is that why do we have all these MMORPG games that are nothing like our meaning of RPG? ...Should they be more like an RPG first...then work on the MMO? Which is why I am holding my breath for GW2...
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The role-playing element is just as clearly there in games like WoW as they are in say, Neverwinter Nights. A problem arises however in the fact that through some odd reason, nobody reads quest dialogue anymore. Also, being an MMO, a large part of the game is intended to be social interaction with other players (and if you tone down the social aspect you get Guild Wars, a game that is known for its story -and we've discussed its qualifications as an MMO before). If other players have no interest in RP, it is much harder to be immersed in that side of the game -and thus the rise of RP servers where specific rules are put in place for that purpose.

For sandbox MMOs the RP is even easier, as everything the developers write is only to flesh out the background, and the players themselves become the story (whether the players even realize and care or not). Of course this doesn't jive with the 'normal RPer' because they ask where are the epic missions, the great evil (who is usually the end boss...) to be overcome, etc. all of which aren't intended to be there unless someone(or a group) decides to become it.

That's not to say there isn't room for improvement, there always is, but the majority of MMOs are very much traditional RPGs and that is actually something I would wish they could pull away from. Even as all kinds of other genres are pulling pieces from the traditional RPG ways, I would like to see an MMO take some pieces from other genres and incorporate them into its RPG core. That would make it stand out for sure.
 
Elader Arkon said:
The role-playing element is just as clearly there in games like WoW as they are in say, Neverwinter Nights. A problem arises however in the fact that through some odd reason, nobody reads quest dialogue anymore. Also, being an MMO, a large part of the game is intended to be social interaction with other players (and if you tone down the social aspect you get Guild Wars, a game that is known for its story -and we've discussed its qualifications as an MMO before). If other players have no interest in RP, it is much harder to be immersed in that side of the game -and thus the rise of RP servers where specific rules are put in place for that purpose.

For sandbox MMOs the RP is even easier, as everything the developers write is only to flesh out the background, and the players themselves become the story (whether the players even realize and care or not). Of course this doesn't jive with the 'normal RPer' because they ask where are the epic missions, the great evil (who is usually the end boss...) to be overcome, etc. all of which aren't intended to be there unless someone(or a group) decides to become it.

That's not to say there isn't room for improvement, there always is, but the majority of MMOs are very much traditional RPGs and that is actually something I would wish they could pull away from. Even as all kinds of other genres are pulling pieces from the traditional RPG ways, I would like to see an MMO take some pieces from other genres and incorporate them into its RPG core. That would make it stand out for sure.
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One thing I always ask myself before putting a lot of time into an MMORPG is, would this game be fun if I were the only one playing it...in most cases no... because they are building the game around MMO concepts...and I don't like that...the game is more based around groups...also... Those who are interested in their story should be easily able to experience their story without have to spend 100s of hours grinding off gear and having a GOOD group of 10-25 people to experience it... Now I will admit I enjoy grinding off gear, but I am sore over that subject since my work schedule doesn't allow for me to play when I can get into groups of 10-25 people to play with...even in a established Christian Guild... I would've really enjoyed WoW more if I would have a chance at reaching the Lich King...that would be fun...but working 2nd shift really hinders that...not only that but every Christian Guild (and this is probably true for non-Chirstian guilds as well) I have been in don't like it if you can only make one raid and often put you on backup every time they have a weekend run because you weren't there for the week runs... And this is an issue I have had in many games, not just WoW... So I am very sore when it comes to having to have large groups to get to the good parts of a game... If GWs had more content I would be in LOVE with that game... Even if they opened up ingame content to 5 players would be better than 10-25... But to my knowledge there is NO decent MMORPG out there which you can clear the endgame with 5 or less players...
 
XionTawa said:
One thing I always ask myself before putting a lot of time into an MMORPG is, would this game be fun if I were the only one playing it...
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Thus, what you want is a normal single player (or co-op) RPG. The whole point of an MMO is to provide and enable social interaction on a large scale. While most MMOs allow you to get through quite a bit of content solo, they are not intended to be that way. The developers know that there will be times when it is impossible to be involved in a group for whatever the reason, especially while leveling. So they designed questlines and chains and other activities to keep people happy when they aren't in a group.

But an MMO is at heart designed to be a collective experience meant to be shared with groups of (at least in WoW) 3, 5, 10, and 25+ with the more people involved there is generally more fun to be had (even in PUGs, got in on a Sunwell PUG Raid, and was treated to one of the most awesome social experiences I've had in WoW -a bunch of players getting together to do something we hadn't done before without the pressure of having to get it done for progression sake). Races, Guilds, Factions, Alliances are all there to help build a sense of community among the players the larger group raids and instances are designed for a sense of community accomplishment.

And for the record, the guild I'm in actually separates the ICC runs according to the times people are available. Hence we have a group that only runs weekends, and two that only run on certain days of the week. We have another run at different times of the week for people trying to either get geared or experience lower level 80's raid content (Uld, Naxx, etc) that isn't run much anymore. In an MMO, it is always very important to get involved with a group of individuals with similar playstyles -the larger the group the better. I've been in many different guilds in a few different MMOs, and every single one of them is very different from each other. The chemistry and attitudes, the rules, the leadership, etc. all combine to make a unique group -without even getting into the game.

I've come to believe a good MMO is at its most basic, simply designed to be an enjoyable (and hopefully memorable) shared social experience for as many people as possible.
 
Elader Arkon said:
Thus, what you want is a normal single player (or co-op) RPG. The whole point of an MMO is to provide and enable social interaction on a large scale. While most MMOs allow you to get through quite a bit of content solo, they are not intended to be that way. The developers know that there will be times when it is impossible to be involved in a group for whatever the reason, especially while leveling. So they designed questlines and chains and other activities to keep people happy when they aren't in a group.

But an MMO is at heart designed to be a collective experience meant to be shared with groups of (at least in WoW) 3, 5, 10, and 25+ with the more people involved there is generally more fun to be had (even in PUGs, got in on a Sunwell PUG Raid, and was treated to one of the most awesome social experiences I've had in WoW -a bunch of players getting together to do something we hadn't done before without the pressure of having to get it done for progression sake). Races, Guilds, Factions, Alliances are all there to help build a sense of community among the players the larger group raids and instances are designed for a sense of community accomplishment.

And for the record, the guild I'm in actually separates the ICC runs according to the times people are available. Hence we have a group that only runs weekends, and two that only run on certain days of the week. We have another run at different times of the week for people trying to either get geared or experience lower level 80's raid content (Uld, Naxx, etc) that isn't run much anymore. In an MMO, it is always very important to get involved with a group of individuals with similar playstyles -the larger the group the better. I've been in many different guilds in a few different MMOs, and every single one of them is very different from each other. The chemistry and attitudes, the rules, the leadership, etc. all combine to make a unique group -without even getting into the game.

I've come to believe a good MMO is at its most basic, simply designed to be an enjoyable (and hopefully memorable) shared social experience for as many people as possible.
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Now, I have tried to get into groups that seriously raided on weekends, and went through 3 very large Christian Guilds...now...I only seriously raided in the last one I was one, but I knew how the others worked... So, you are telling me you have a group that only runs on the weekends that is nearing LK? Or just casually raiding...? Now I cannot afford to play WoW atm...just asking... And I understand the point about that is why they make it an MMO and all...but I really did enjoy WoW, until I got to raiding...I LOVED to raid...but spending week and week trying to get a group to seriously hit Uld and ICC was a SERIOUS pain in the...butt... I spent MONTHS trying to get groups for the weekends...and 90% of the time...they failed...and I am not no casual Raider...I wanna play 4-6 hours a night and be one of the first to down the end game bosses... But without a group...it was out of my grasp... Now...even if they would have opened up ICC to a 5 man team, I could've done it...I was ALWAYS a healer or tank short...usually only had 8 people...we would wait 2 even 3 hours for a healer or tank sometimes...and it NEVER work out... That is one of the biggest reasons I hate WoW now...I never got to do what I wanted to do and payed from to do...And I even looked around for other Christian Guilds on our server, there were actually quite a few...and none seriously raided on the weekends, unless it was from a weekday team... Are you really telling me I went through months of annoyance and regret and you and many others had no problems finding a weekend team??? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

Oh well...moving on... Another thing that hindered me was a Character transfer was out of the question...so I was stuck on my server...

...(It always seems like I have the WORST luck in MMORPGs)...

But on a lighter note, I am pwning and having a blast in these online shooters :D
 
Well, I'm not in a Christian guild (there isn't one on Crushridge last I checked), and it is fairly large with an average of 25+ players on at any time (more during scheduled raids). The only requirement for the ICC raids is you have over 5.2k GS, have Vent, and be there on time. They're past the first four 25man bosses, and I'm not sure where they are on 10man. (I don't have 5.2k GS yet, so I can't really say how they are aside from guild chatter, but the other raids like TotGC, Ony, OS, and VoA are great) We had a problem with people Pugging raids and then not being available for the guild, so new rules means you don't raid unless it is with the guild and if you want to do one not in the calendar (say, Uld, or EoE) talk to an officer who will either give the Ok to go or will put it on the schedule. This of course had a dramatic increase in overall guild performance...

I would have a higher GS and be raiding ICC, but my time and attention have been more with EVE in the evenings when all the raids happen in WoW... :o
 
Elader Arkon said:
Well, I'm not in a Christian guild (there isn't one on Crushridge last I checked), and it is fairly large with an average of 25+ players on at any time (more during scheduled raids). The only requirement for the ICC raids is you have over 5.2k GS, have Vent, and be there on time. They're past the first four 25man bosses, and I'm not sure where they are on 10man. (I don't have 5.2k GS yet, so I can't really say how they are aside from guild chatter, but the other raids like TotGC, Ony, OS, and VoA are great) We had a problem with people Pugging raids and then not being available for the guild, so new rules means you don't raid unless it is with the guild and if you want to do one not in the calendar (say, Uld, or EoE) talk to an officer who will either give the Ok to go or will put it on the schedule. This of course had a dramatic increase in overall guild performance...

I would have a higher GS and be raiding ICC, but my time and attention have been more with EVE in the evenings when all the raids happen in WoW... :o
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I was a member of Narrow Path, we had 50-70 people on at peak time...and 2 to 3 25 man raiding teams...yet none of them only went on the weekend...and they have downed the Lich King...

EVE is a good game...but I refuse to grind without having fun... IMO EVE is great all around, but the grind can start to get really boring... Someone once said...EVE is the best game ever, if you have a good music playlist ready for grinding :) ...but I guess that is true with just about any game anymore...well...kinda... (It's too early...I just woke up :P)
 
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The only grinding I know anyone is forced to do in EVE is the first month or two while your initial skills are being trained. For example, it takes 33 days to train from nothing into a Covert Ops ship with the same capabilities as someone who has been been flying them for six years. and during that training time you'll have to grind up the isk to be able to fit it and fly it.
Or if being a fly on the wall/exploration isn't your thing, the same amount of time will get you the skills to have a very nicely fitted Cruiser (it only takes 7 days of training to get Cruiser III, and [insert weapon type here] Medium weapon IV) with the rest of the time being spent on armor/shield tanking and core skills.

If industry trading is the desire it takes 1 day and 8hours to train up to fly a basic industrial hauler (Badger Mk II is popular right now), and maybe a week to train up the Trade skills that lowers the various costs and taxes on buying/selling goods. After that, most people start working on production skills, but that is in no way necessary for a Trade based industrial career. While the easiest to train into, it is also incredibly cutthroat and unless you're some kind of economist, market fluctuations will seem like gambling for a while, and doesn't provide a steady income until you've made enough isk to get into the big stuff.

That's the cool thing about their skill system, the only grind is the time it takes to train the skills and all skills max at level 5. The longest to train a skill from 4 to 5 I've seen is around 27 days, which imo is a very, very long time -so it is a good thing 90% of the time Lvl 4 is all that's necessary.
Now on the other hand of the skill training system, if you want to fly a Titan and absolutely dominate the battlefield (in more ways than one, look at the size of those things) it will take 274 days just to sit in one, much less use the weapons for it, and to be fully skilled it will take over a year (thus the reason there are only 317 known Titans in the entire game). It's usually an alliance/corp effort to get a titan for the trained pilot to fly, because it's near impossible for a single player to outright buy/build one (I have yet to actually even see one in-game).


Maybe the grind is making isk? Which I will agree that until you get that first decent ship for your profession, making isk is a grind, and fairly inescapable unless you have friends in game. Easiest way to make isk becomes a matter of being social, getting with a solid newbie friendly corp (of which, EVE University is regarded as the best there is) that can help you get into whatever part of EVE you want to do. And being a sandbox game, there is no forced path player must follow in order to make isk. Some people don't even fly ships, they simply sit in a heavy trading system (Jita, Rens) station and buy/sell, and any goods they have to move around they contract out. Really, things are only a grind in the game if you want it to be (and yes, hauling stuff is boring, though I enjoyed it. I listened to trucker songs while I hauled things around Empire in my Industrial Courier days... :p).
 
More Thoughts

From their forums.

Is this going to be PvP?

Red5: Yep. We have two main goals: raise the bar on co-op (hundreds of players in open dynamic world) and build great support for competitive clan based armies, ladders, stats and tournaments (PvP)
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Awesome.
 
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