Prophecy whats it about in our day and age??

[Atown]

in alot of ways, im with DV, i wouldt mind an example. the way i see prophets, majority on tv, radio etc are fake. my friend stars youthgroup has a guy that they watch videos of and i dont really trust or like. he makes alot of broad prophocies that "mystic" could use. but true prophecy in my life would be when i went to an old guys house, he turned 90 several months ago and me n pops were talking to him and he says "ya know what? God wants me to say something or else he wouldt have brought you here today, meh i dunno what it is though" we talk for a while then he says to me "ya know what? you can be 6' tall or 4', doesnt matter how tall you are, that if you arent standing tall for Christ than your just a big midget." and later he says "i just know the Lord had something for me to say, wonder if i said it while rambling "

the fact of the matter was, i was lightly compromising, i think ephesians said it best:

"Ephesians 4:29
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

i havent been cussing or whatnot but i got into making alot of racial and jew jokes with certain people and it wasnt right. and "midget" is a coined word that i use in videos

[start shamelessplug.exe] my videos can be viewed at www.l337-coffee.com for personal entertainment about gamers and pwning midgets, hope you enjoy.

[end shamelessplug.exe]

and i havent seen this guy in like.... a year and the fact he knew bout midgets and the standing tall stuff..... yeah thats my 2 cents

 

[Durruck]

The only problem I see.... is that no matter the reasons why we believe, there are others, such as DV, that just don't believe for their own reasons. Please don't understand this to be a personal attack... DV is just open about his feelings, beliefs, and opinions. I can appreciate that, even though we do not agree on the subject matter. Therefore, I am using DV as a reference point to my generalization.

What items are "proof" to me are not going to be acceptable to others. God has talked to me, shown me things that cannot be explained in any other way than divine intervention. To me, that's proof enough. But without having his own similar experience, DV seemingly discounts that we could have had one (oversimplification, I know, but that's the long-and-short of it.)

As for false prophets and real seers.... I can't name names. I have no room to judge anyone; I only judge their statements. People are free to say whatever they want. If what they say has scriptural basis, glorifies God, produces good fruit, and is confirmed by other Christians, then I will listen. Otherwise, I don't think that it has any place in my spiritual life.

But please don't misinterpret - I still know that the government holds certain powers over my physical body... but I know as long as I do what God has laid out before me, my spiritual and eternal body is taken care of.

As for why some people don't believe due to a "lack of proof"? It makes no sense to me. They believe that King Tut existed and ruled what is now Egypt... because we found writings about him 4000 years after he died.

So why is it that only 2000 years after someone walks the earth, raises the dead, heals the sick, gives sight to the blind... we have numerous documents that teach us what He said, did... and yet we don't believe?

I suppose you would have to believe in the first place that Old Testament was truly the divine word of God to believe that Jesus fulfilled the scriptures... but when someone shows up at my door and can do the impossible - how can I not at least stop and consider the possibility that he is more than I could ever be?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Thanks Durruck.

The main problem that you are overlooking is your oversimplification and misuse of the word "proof".

You have no proof that God exists. You don't know that God exists.

If you had REAL proof, it wouldn't care how I felt about God, I would be forced to admit to his existence. You may not like George Bush or follow him, but I can prove to you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the he exists.

Likewise, you don't KNOW God exists, because you have no KNOWLEDGE of him. What you have is a BELIEF, which is a much different thing. I can believe in unicorns all I want, but that doesn't make them real.

As Thomas Jefferson said, "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

 

[aka Ash]

If you had REAL proof, it wouldn't care how I felt about God, I would be forced to admit to his existence. You may not like George Bush or follow him, but I can prove to you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the he exists.

Likewise, you don't KNOW God exists, because you have no KNOWLEDGE of him. What you have is a BELIEF, which is a much different thing. I can believe in unicorns all I want, but that doesn't make them real.

Let me get "crazy out there" for a minute, just cause I wanna
You've just entered the Twilight Zone!

You cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that George Bush does exist.

You cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you exist.

You cannot prove beyond a shodow of a doubt that I exist.


here is the doubt...
1.)If I am a schizophrenic, psychotic, or just totally and completely insane...you could be a figment of my imagination. a part of me trying to convince myself that God doesn't exist.
2.)Visa versa...I may be a figment of your imagination trying to prove God does exist.
3.)We may all be living in a dream state ...ie. the Matrix. That means that you BELIEVE this "life" to be reality, but truly can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. George Bush may just be some computer program. So your BELIEF in reality, however probable, is still just that...your BELIEF. (and mine of course)

So why is your belief right, and ours wrong?


I told you I was going to get "crazy out there" for a minute.

ok...sorry...back to our REALITY.

 

[Durruck]

That's where we end up at the old argument...prove there is wind. I can't hold it. I can't see, taste, or smell it. I can see the effects of the wind, but I can't actually see the wind itself.

Sometimes we just believe in things that we can't see, because there is enough things that point us in the direction of belief. I see leaves moving on the trees. I know that some force moves them. Science is able to explain that by the air shifting through high and low pressure cells, the axial spinning of the Earth, etc, and therefore, I believe there is wind.

To me, the Big Bang Theory holds no weight. I've never felt comfortable saying that everything we are... is here by chance. After all of the logic, medical, sociological studies I've done... as intricate as everything is... I just can't fathom that we're here by accident, or decended from apes. (If genetic mutation caused us to decend from apes, and "survival of the fittest" arguments actually worked, there would not be both humans and apes at the same time.)

You use a lot of logic in your arguments. I, too, understand and appreciate the value the use of logic in validating claims. However, I believe there are two important points about logic to keep in mind.

1) Ockham's Razor. The simplest answer is most likely to be the most accurate. The more exceptions you have to write in to any rule to make it valid, the more likely you're going to run into another exception.

2) You have to believe some source of data. For instance, take the number three. Yes, that number that sits on the keyboard between 2 & 4. We only know that three means three because someone decided that it means three. At some point, we have to take it for granted that three does mean three... otherwise, I could say that "three = green" and there is nothing that says anything to the contrary.

But enough of my shoddy logic, and back to God.

As I stated before, I have my "proof" that leads me to believe. You're right, it's not something that I can show you. I can only tell you my story about the day that changed my life. But there is no photograph, no signed book.... only a vision of stairs that I had never seen in my life... and then the trip into the middle of a city that I had never been to.... only to find the exact stairs from my vision. I prayed and asked God for a sense of direction... for His help. He showed me stairs, then lead me straight to them.

As I said above:

What items are "proof" to me are not going to be acceptable to others. God has talked to me, shown me things that cannot be explained in any other way than divine intervention. To me, that's proof enough.

I know it's not enough for you. But those stairs were enough for me. I cannot logically or illogically deduce any other way that I could have "seen" a set of stairs so clearly that they could have been a photograph (when I'm sure they weren't), and then find them in the world. The color of the concrete, the design of the railing, shadows, everything.

I'm sorry to hear that you once were a believer, but have since changed your mind because you didn't have an experience to "prove" that God is here. I don't know, and can't explain why you wouldn't have a situation strike you so brutally that you couldn't help but know God is there, but it's sad to see someone that wants so badly to believe turn away.

Sadly though, discussions regarding beliefs with you will be pointless. Any scripture reference I could quote you could immediately refute with any other reference. Whether it be God, unicorns, or UFOs - it just comes down to whether or not a person believes in the existance of the topic.

I believe in God for reasons that are strong enough that I cannot refute. You do not believe in God for reasons that are strong enough that you cannot refute as well. I do believe that we're at a stalemate, as far as our opinions of God go.

By the way, sorry for the long reply. I had a lot on my mind

 

[Dark Virtue]

Let me get "crazy out there" for a minute, just cause I wanna
You've just entered the Twilight Zone!

You cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that George Bush does exist.

You cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you exist.

You cannot prove beyond a shodow of a doubt that I exist.


here is the doubt...
1.)If I am a schizophrenic, psychotic, or just totally and completely insane...you could be a figment of my imagination. a part of me trying to convince myself that God doesn't exist.
2.)Visa versa...I may be a figment of your imagination trying to prove God does exist.
3.)We may all be living in a dream state ...ie. the Matrix. That means that you BELIEVE this "life" to be reality, but truly can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. George Bush may just be some computer program. So your BELIEF in reality, however probable, is still just that...your BELIEF. (and mine of course)

So why is your belief right, and ours wrong?


I told you I was going to get "crazy out there" for a minute.

ok...sorry...back to our REALITY.

You can come up with all sorts of crazy little notions that question reality.

But, like you said, it's time to come back to REALITY. But what is reality? I think a standard defintion would be the state of being real or actual. Therefore, within the realm of reality, it is possible to prove the existence of ourselves and George Bush.

What you are doing is trying to prove something that exists outside the bounds of reality. I can't prove God doesn't exist because there is no evidence to examine within our state of reality. Likewise, you can't prove God exists because there is no proof or evidence that he does within this reality. There is no knowledge of God. Knowledge being the FACT of something. What you have is a BELIEF that God exists. That is much different than having KNOWLEDGE God exists.

 

[Dark Virtue]

That's where we end up at the old argument...prove there is wind. I can't hold it. I can't see, taste, or smell it. I can see the effects of the wind, but I can't actually see the wind itself.

WHOA. You just made a huge, incorrect statement.

Can we prove there is wind? Of course we can! You said it yourself, you can see the effects of the wind. It's observeable,testable and subject to the scientific method.

Here's a link to the Texas Tech University Wind Science and Engineering Research Center. Try and tell THEM they can't prove wind exists.

Sometimes we just believe in things that we can't see, because there is enough things that point us in the direction of belief. I see leaves moving on the trees. I know that some force moves them. Science is able to explain that by the air shifting through high and low pressure cells, the axial spinning of the Earth, etc, and therefore, I believe there is wind.

AHA, now here is the real crux of the problem. You are confusing belief and knowledge. I have no problem acknowledging that you have a belief in God. I have a huge problem though, when you claim to KNOW God exists, or have proof of his existence. Belief and proof are not synonymous.

To me, the Big Bang Theory holds no weight. I've never felt comfortable saying that everything we are... is here by chance. After all of the logic, medical, sociological studies I've done... as intricate as everything is... I just can't fathom that we're here by accident, or decended from apes. (If genetic mutation caused us to decend from apes, and "survival of the fittest" arguments actually worked, there would not be both humans and apes at the same time.)

I'm not a big fan or proponent of the Big Bang either...for the same reasons I don't believe in Creationism...there's just not enough proof to support the theory. That's why it's called a THEORY. That's why Creationism is a THEORY.

Here's your other problem...you don't FEEL comfortable? Feelings shouldn't enter into the equation. We're talking about FACTS here, not FEELINGS. Feelings alter and shape BELIEFS, they have no impact on KNOWLEDGE. Beginning to see a trend?

You use a lot of logic in your arguments. I, too, understand and appreciate the value the use of logic in validating claims. However, I believe there are two important points about logic to keep in mind.

1) Ockham's Razor. The simplest answer is most likely to be the most accurate. The more exceptions you have to write in to any rule to make it valid, the more likely you're going to run into another exception.

Ah, Occam's Razor. If you're gonna pull out the big guns, you better know where the trigger is

You've boiled down OR to something that is far too simplistic to accurate define it, namely, "take the simplest solution". To stay true to the best understanding of Occam's Razor, it should be defined as, "do no multiply entities unneccessarily".

Do a quick search on the Paris Astrological Society and their denial of the existence of meteorites because of a simpler explanation.

As HL Mencken said, "For every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, elegant, and wrong."

It would also help to do a little study on the subject of parsimony.

If you're going to honestly and objectively use Occam's Razor, then you need to examine why Theism is presumably the simpler explanation to Naturalism.

I could go further with this, but this could easily be a thread in, and of itself.

2) You have to believe some source of data. For instance, take the number three. Yes, that number that sits on the keyboard between 2 & 4. We only know that three means three because someone decided that it means three. At some point, we have to take it for granted that three does mean three... otherwise, I could say that "three = green" and there is nothing that says anything to the contrary.

Again, belief and knowledge are two different things.

But enough of my shoddy logic, and back to God.

Hey, if you're gonna play the logic card, you have to be willing to play by the logical rules and see it through to the end.

As I stated before, I have my "proof" that leads me to believe. You're right, it's not something that I can show you. I can only tell you my story about the day that changed my life. But there is no photograph, no signed book.... only a vision of stairs that I had never seen in my life... and then the trip into the middle of a city that I had never been to.... only to find the exact stairs from my vision. I prayed and asked God for a sense of direction... for His help. He showed me stairs, then lead me straight to them.

Please, don't take offense at what I am about to say. Keep in mind that I was a believer once and understand what you are saying. What I also understand, after years of hindsight and objectibility, is that things aren't always as they appear. Theists tend to pound round pegs into square holes to match their beliefs (there's that word again).

Let me put it to you this way. If I were to acknowledge that what you have is real proof, real evidence, then how will you address me when I tell you that I also have proof and evidence to the contrary. I can relate stories to you that "prove" that God does not exist. What about other religions? They have "proof" that Allah exists, or "proof" that Vishnu exists. Why is their "proof" any different than yours? ALL those "proofs" can't be correct, but they CAN all be wrong.

As I said above:

I know it's not enough for you. But those stairs were enough for me. I cannot logically or illogically deduce any other way that I could have "seen" a set of stairs so clearly that they could have been a photograph (when I'm sure they weren't), and then find them in the world. The color of the concrete, the design of the railing, shadows, everything.

Are you SURE you can't? Objectibility isn't an easy thing to resign yourself to. Again, it's those feelings that help shape your belief.

I'm sorry to hear that you once were a believer, but have since changed your mind because you didn't have an experience to "prove" that God is here. I don't know, and can't explain why you wouldn't have a situation strike you so brutally that you couldn't help but know God is there, but it's sad to see someone that wants so badly to believe turn away.

My story isn't unique though, I hope you realize that. There are many, many like mine. All I ask is that you weigh your "proof" of existence and my "proof" of nonexistence together. If they are equally weighted, then something, somewhere has to be wrong. Harboring a belief without actively pursuing it logically is intellectually dishonest.

Sadly though, discussions regarding beliefs with you will be pointless. Any scripture reference I could quote you could immediately refute with any other reference. Whether it be God, unicorns, or UFOs - it just comes down to whether or not a person believes in the existance of the topic.

There's that word again, belief

Are you honestly telling me that if a person believes, with their heart, mind and soul, that unicorns exist, that they really DO?

As I stated before, you may not want to believe that the Eiffel Tower exists, but if I can prove to you that it does, what would that say about your belief in it's nonexistence?

Likewise, if you want me to believe in something extraordinary, like God, you had better be able to offer up extraordinary evidence to support that claim.

I believe in God for reasons that are strong enough that I cannot refute. You do not believe in God for reasons that are strong enough that you cannot refute as well. I do believe that we're at a stalemate, as far as our opinions of God go.

Logically Durruck, how can there be a stalemate? If I say I believe the moon is made of cheese and you say you believe it's made of marshmallow, how can both of our beliefs be true? As I said, both of our beliefs can't be true, but they CAN both be wrong. Once again, if your belief in God is right, wouldnt you have to acknowledge EVERY god because of their believer's "proof" which is identical to your own?

By the way, sorry for the long reply. I had a lot on my mind

The longer your replies are, the longer mine are

 

[aka Ash]

You can come up with all sorts of crazy little notions that question reality.

But, like you said, it's time to come back to REALITY. But what is reality? I think a standard defintion would be the state of being real or actual. Therefore, within the realm of reality, it is possible to prove the existence of ourselves and George Bush.

What you are doing is trying to prove something that exists outside the bounds of reality. I can't prove God doesn't exist because there is no evidence to examine within our state of reality. Likewise, you can't prove God exists because there is no proof or evidence that he does within this reality. There is no knowledge of God. Knowledge being the FACT of something. What you have is a BELIEF that God exists. That is much different than having KNOWLEDGE God exists.

My only comment is that you BELIEVE this existence of yours to be a reality, you do not KNOW it.

In my reality I KNOW God exists. I've seen spirits, I've seen a demon cast out, I've heard God's voice, I have had visions, etc. My senses detected those things so I know it.

 

[Durruck]

Perhaps, insetad of "proof" in my last post...insert the word "reason". I can't hold any proof of God in my hand, but I can still hold my reasons. After I posted, I got to thinking about it and couldn't edit it for the word swap... this was the first chance I got to come back and reply...

I have my reasons for my belief in God...and the moon being made of marshmallow. But how did you know about that? I suppose that I don't know it's made of marshmallow, that's just a guess. I'd be willing to go in on the theory that it's made of white chocolate, too.

But I'm curious... we replied back and forth above:

I know it's not enough for you. But those stairs were enough for me. I cannot logically or illogically deduce any other way that I could have "seen" a set of stairs so clearly that they could have been a photograph (when I'm sure they weren't), and then find them in the world. The color of the concrete, the design of the railing, shadows, everything.

Are you SURE you can't? Objectibility isn't an easy thing to resign yourself to. Again, it's those feelings that help shape your belief.

I'm curious. I don't exactly catch your meaning here... and wonder if you can formulate another possibility?

If you mean... how am I sure that those were the same stairs? Again, no proof... but I'm certain of it. There were several other places that looked very similar... and with each one, I was like a kid on Christmas - seeing all the presents laid beneath the tree. But with each set of stairs before the "right one", I carefully examined the packages and came to realize that none of them had my name on them... But my present was hidden in the back, just waiting for me to get there. At the time that I found them, I was starting to think that I had made the whole thing up; I wasn't at the point where I was actively looking anymore... but they hit me like a brick when I saw them, looked carefully to see that everything was exactly how I saw in my mind.

As for my illogic - I'll concede that you're better with the handling of the rules of logic. I took 2 quarters of it in college 10 years ago. The specifics of constructing valid arguments have likely escaped me.

As I stated before, you may not want to believe that the Eiffel Tower exists, but if I can prove to you that it does, what would that say about your belief in it's nonexistence?

Hollywood. I think the Eiffel Tower was created in Hollywood, just as the sets of Harry Potter and Star Trek. Man, that picture is a pretty convincing fake, though.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Perhaps, insetad of "proof" in my last post...insert the word "reason". I can't hold any proof of God in my hand, but I can still hold my reasons. After I posted, I got to thinking about it and couldn't edit it for the word swap... this was the first chance I got to come back and reply...

I have my reasons for my belief in God...and the moon being made of marshmallow. But how did you know about that? I suppose that I don't know it's made of marshmallow, that's just a guess. I'd be willing to go in on the theory that it's made of white chocolate, too.

I don't think reason works either, because belief in the existence of God is patently unreasonable. Reasonable being defined as being in accordance to reason, a rational, sufficient ground of explanation; somthing that supports a fact.

One of the problems here is that you are claiming the existence of God as a fact, when you cannot support that statement. If anything, it is, at most, a theory.

I'm curious. I don't exactly catch your meaning here... and wonder if you can formulate another possibility?

If you mean... how am I sure that those were the same stairs? Again, no proof... but I'm certain of it. There were several other places that looked very similar... and with each one, I was like a kid on Christmas - seeing all the presents laid beneath the tree. But with each set of stairs before the "right one", I carefully examined the packages and came to realize that none of them had my name on them... But my present was hidden in the back, just waiting for me to get there. At the time that I found them, I was starting to think that I had made the whole thing up; I wasn't at the point where I was actively looking anymore... but they hit me like a brick when I saw them, looked carefully to see that everything was exactly how I saw in my mind.

What I meant was that your feelings helped sway your belief. A red flag went up when I read, "there were several other places that looked very similar" which led me to believe that you were actively searching for something that fit.

As for my illogic - I'll concede that you're better with the handling of the rules of logic. I took 2 quarters of it in college 10 years ago. The specifics of constructing valid arguments have likely escaped me.

Trust me, I am no master of logic. I minored in it in college, but to this day I have a hearty distate for formal, logical arguments, which is why I never bring them up here.

Hollywood. I think the Eiffel Tower was created in Hollywood, just as the sets of Harry Potter and Star Trek. Man, that picture is a pretty convincing fake, though.

Hopefully this was a joke

It does, however, reinforce my point. Your disbelief in the Eiffel Tower can be dissuaded because of the abundance of proof and evidence to support the existence of the Tower. When presented with said proof and evidence, you have the choice to continue your disbelief. But, in so doing, you are being intellectually dishonest, illogical, irrational and unreasonable. Now this is exactly what Christians claim of me when they present me with "evidence". Unfortunately, what they have given up does not qualify as evidence or proof in the logical, scientific sense.

 

[Zeena]

I say me being here is fact enough of God's existance

Not to mention the rest of the world! LOL!

 

[Dark Virtue]

I say me being here is fact enough of God's existance

Not to mention the rest of the world! LOL!

I love your "logic".

Let me give you a taste of your own argument...

God made me an atheist, who are you to question His wisdom?

 

[Jeshurun]

I was reading the book of Jeremiah 23:16-32 this morning and came across this about prophets who give a false message and false dreams. You should have a gander at it if you get a chance sometime.
Heres what really stuck out to me in what I read.

Jer.23:28,29 "Let the prophet who has a dream tell the dream, but let him who has my word speak my word faithfully. What has straw in common with wheat? says the Lord.
Is not my word like fire, says the Lord, and like a hammer which breaks the rock in pieces?

After reading this I remembered something I read earlier in Jeremiah 20:8,9.

Jeremiah said "For whenever I speak, I cry out, I shout, "Violence and destruction!" For the word of the Lord has become a reproach and derision all day long."
"If I say, "I will not mention him or speak anymore of his name," there is in my heart a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I am weary with holding it in, and I cannot.

God said His word is like a fire and Jeremiah's testimony of this fire burning in his heart is a great example of a prophet knowing that this is the voice of God and then therefore he must speak it.

This is an excellent testimony for those of us who call themselves a prophet in this day and age.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I can think of quite a few examples of "false" prophets, but I can't think of one "true" prophet.

 

[Zeena]

I love your "logic".

Let me give you a taste of your own argument...

God made me an atheist, who are you to question His wisdom?

Who says I question His wisdom?!?

If you've TRULY never been born again, and you were to die in your sins, then God still recieves Glory..For He has witness'd to you this very day

In fact..

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign for ever and ever."

Not ONLY Glory!

Revelation 7:12
Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Durruck]

Quote:
Hollywood. I think the Eiffel Tower was created in Hollywood, just as the sets of Harry Potter and Star Trek. Man, that picture is a pretty convincing fake, though.


Hopefully this was a joke

Yes, I was joking when I said that I didn't believe the Effiel Tower exists.

It does, however, reinforce my point. Your disbelief in the Eiffel Tower can be dissuaded because of the abundance of proof and evidence to support the existence of the Tower. When presented with said proof and evidence, you have the choice to continue your disbelief. But, in so doing, you are being intellectually dishonest, illogical, irrational and unreasonable. Now this is exactly what Christians claim of me when they present me with "evidence". Unfortunately, what they have given up does not qualify as evidence or proof in the logical, scientific sense.

I think you're crossing your arguments and applying logic assumed from an argument FOR the existance of object1 and applying it to the arguement AGAINST object2.

You're saying that we have proof of the Tower, and hence, it exists. To continue doubting it's existance is illogical.

However, we don't have the right proof about God for you, so to continue believing is illogical.

You can't cross logical statements like that, logically. You can prove me wrong about the Tower's existance. You cannot prove me wrong about God's existance. While I cannot provide you with the same evidence about God you've given me about the tower, I can tell you about my expereinces that have lead me to believe God. These incidents are not based on science, logic, or tangible evidence. I know that.

You cannot prove, logically, that God does not exist. How can it be illogical, then, to believe He does?

You can only give me a reason that you've not convinced. You used to believe, but you felt nothing, so now you don't believe. How is that any more proof than what I'm offering?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Yes, I was joking when I said that I didn't believe the Effiel Tower exists.

I think you're crossing your arguments and applying logic assumed from an argument FOR the existance of object1 and applying it to the arguement AGAINST object2.

You're saying that we have proof of the Tower, and hence, it exists. To continue doubting it's existance is illogical.

However, we don't have the right proof about God for you, so to continue believing is illogical.

You can't cross logical statements like that, logically. You can prove me wrong about the Tower's existance. You cannot prove me wrong about God's existance. While I cannot provide you with the same evidence about God you've given me about the tower, I can tell you about my expereinces that have lead me to believe God. These incidents are not based on science, logic, or tangible evidence. I know that.

You cannot prove, logically, that God does not exist. How can it be illogical, then, to believe He does?

You can only give me a reason that you've not convinced. You used to believe, but you felt nothing, so now you don't believe. How is that any more proof than what I'm offering?

I think that you are committing the exact same crime you are accusing me of.

One of the problems you are having is an incorrect terminology. If you have PROOF or EVIDENCE that something exists, you can PROVE to someone else the validity of your statement.

Anecdotal evidence is not EVIDENCE. It's not reasonable. It's not admissable in a court of law. Does that mean it's worthless? Not exactly. Anecdotal Evidence is fine for supporting a BELIEF. That is what you have, a BELIEF. Not KNOWLEDGE. KNOWLEDGE is supportable by EVIDENCE, PROOF and REASON.

You BELIEVE God exists. I'm more than willing to grant you that, especially since you claim to have anecdotal evidence to support your assertion. I have a problem, however, when you claim to KNOW God exists. That is not verifiable, therefore, it must be relegated to a BELIEF.

You are correct when you state that I cannot PROVE God doesn't exist. Honestly, I don't care about that. Primarliy because it's not important to me. I've never claimed to be able to prove God's nonexistence because I recognize it as a logical fallacy, you can't prove a negative. On the flipside, YOU are claiming to KNOW God exists. You have stated a positive, therefore the onus is on YOU to support your claim. You have two choices: Back up your statement with PROOF or change your assertion to one of BELIEF and not KNOWLEDGE.

I confused the two when I was a Christian. It was only upon introspection that I realized that what I had was not KNOWLEDGE, but BELIEF.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Who says I question His wisdom?!?

If you've TRULY never been born again, and you were to die in your sins, then God still recieves Glory..For He has witness'd to you this very day

In fact..


Not ONLY Glory!

Can you translate this to English, please?