Judgement

cc.slim

cc.slim

Moderator
I have another problem hahaha like they pop up all the time but let me explain. Sunday b4 last I noticed a young man who attends church alot and he sits very close to our evangilist. Well after service he hustled straight to his car and lit a cig and after grandma's sunday dinner I stopped by the store and there he was buying beer. My first thoughts was how could he, but thinking of using positive thought power verses negative I changed my whole perspective on how we might see us. True the world sees us differently but we are not part of the world and we do try to reach them, I stumbled or so I think. My change was the thought of that WE are reaching and he is listening. So let us look at the positive when we see others that are trying to find or grow in His presence.(I felt better when I thought positive) Hosea has a scripture on backsliding is there any others that would help us look at christains in general who seem to shed a unholy light on our stance that deserve non judgement on our behalf?
 
Just remember, the Bible tells us we should take the plank from our own eye before trying to remove the speck in our brother's eye.

We all have our vices, addictions, stumbling blocks. There may be more of a story to his alcohol purchase than you could see.

Maybe he bought the beer, and made lunch for an alcoholic? I know we shouldn't feed into other people's problems, but watching someone go through DTs is pretty tough... even as a paramedic that seen some really gruesome stuff, DTs are hard to watch. He could be doing it to make sure the person eats, and gets enough to drink to keep them from detoxing violently.

A few months ago, the youth pastor at my church went in and bought a case of beer. Turns out it was for a church event.... a drama that the scent of beer was needed to set the scene. We went through 4 or 5 cases of beer... and nobody drank the first drop. But if one of the members of the church saw him buying beer, what would they think?

But also keep in mind that there are the people that only work with God on Sundays, during service. But the thing is, that could be their portal in. That's how I started. I was only religious between 10:45a and 12:30p - during the service. But God kept working on me, and has been able to change me. It took me a long time, but He got me. Maybe it's just not that guy's time to see the big picture yet.

On the other hand, don't be afraid to talk to him. I wouldn't start the conversation off by calling him out, but get to know him, first. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
 
I'm really confused cc.slim please forgive my slowness on this. From my reading of what you posted, I think you are saying that this person is not living what you think is a Christian life.
 
Yeh I think he is putting on a show for whatever reason and our attempts to put forth a decent picture of ourselves this is what will be seen. I stumbled by judgement. I caught myself and changed attitude as we all should.
 
I don't think smoking is right, but there's nothing wrong with alcohol. It's just the abuse of alcohol that is forbidden.
 
I just wanted to point out that our judgement is just that, our judgement. It is based on what we believe is right or wrong based on our experience and knowledge. We may say "I believe smoking is wrong." And for you, you are probably right. But for this person, we don't know. We don't know where he is with it with God. Maybe he is going through a drug detox program and yes believe it or not, going to smoking is part of the recovery program for many of the current drug detox programs out there. We don't know, so our definition of right and wrong does not apply to others. The moment we say "That person is not a good christian" or "that person does not exemplify Christianity by doing...X...which I believe is wrong" we are the ones in the wrong. We have to be careful of the weights and measurements we judge other with becuase we certainly wouldn't even measure upto our own weights and measures when we apply them to ourselves.

One thing as Christians we have to be carefull of is to concentrate more on our relationship with Christ and less on others relationships with christ. I think we are guilty of spending more time worrying about others relationship with Christ then we should and less time working on our own relationship with Christ then we aught.

When we talk about removing our own plank from our eye, it is much more then to remove our own stumbling blocks to help somebody else, it also means removing our own preconcived notions of right and wrong before helping somebody else. We have to remove our own filters that we use to make any type of judgement and replace them with Gods filters. And believe it or not, you and I are not qualified to use Gods filters perfectly, we will make mistakes.

You may say and believe in your heart smoking is wrong. But what do you hope to accomplish by approaching somebody about their smoking? You will only come accross as "I'm a better Christian then you because I don't smoke and you do." I don't care how you doll it up, that is how you will come across, whether you mean it or not.

The hardest thing, and I say it with confidence, as a Christian is to look past all the sin, all the wrongs, and all the evil (whether as you percieve it, or as defined in the bible) and see the beautiful creation that God so loved that he was willing to die for. Its an interesting process because in order to do that, you have to look at yourself. You have to determine your own filters, you have to basically judge yourself with your own weights and measures and you will probably not like what you find out about yourself. But it is good to do so, because it will refocus yourself back onto your relationship with christ. And in doing so, you will remove that plank from your eye, and in doing so, you will see past the smoking, the drinking, the killing or what ever it is and all you will be left with is Gods Creation. And the only way you can judge that is, it is good.

Now the interesting twist is, we are called to judge the fruit of our brothers and sisters. The fruit of the spirit is:
love;
joy;
peace;
patience;
kindness;
goodness;
faithfulness;
gentleness;
self-control.

I submit this to you, that the fruits of the spirit are listed in a specific order, from the first fruits to the last fruits. From the easiest to discern to the hardest. From the easiest master and produce to the hardest to produce. From the first the our relationship with Christ deals with to the last. I read a book, maybe a decade ago now that made very real and viable arguements for this order. I can't seem to find the book right now, when I do, I'll post the information.

All you have seen is somebody who has an issue with the last of the fruits of the spirit, which may well mean that God has not gotten there with him just yet. Maybe they are still working on peace or joy.
 
You are absolutely right thats why I brought this up not because I felt he stumbled but because the instance of what I seen caused me to stumble.
 
You stumbled because you saw him buying beer? That's strange, how did that stumble you? Did you think "ooh, he's buying beer, maybe I should buy beer too despite the fact that I feel conviction about this"? Or by "stumbled" do you mean you just didn't like seeing him buy beer? I guess I never understand what people mean when they say that they're stumbling because of what someone else is doing.

First off, do you even know that this guy is a Christian? He could just be some kid who is curious about God, or he might be just going to church because it's church and he has to. From what you said in your first post you don't seem to know him at all, my advice to you is get to know this guy and where he's at before you call him out on something he might not even be guilty of! Maybe you should go up to him and try to be his friend before anything else, maybe nobody else has come up to him and made friends with him in the whole church and he needs to see some genuine Christ-like love before he's able to give his life to Christ. This is just speculation, but from what you've said it doesn't seem too unreasonable.

Secondly, buying beer shouldn't be considered a sin at all, in fact check out what Paul says about drinking alcohol in 1 Tim 5:23: Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. Hmm... that's interesting, so it's ok to drink a little wine now and then? God created something and we're supposed to use it for good? Yep. Now Paul's not saying go get drunk, in the context of this verse he's recommending drinking a little wine to stay healthy, meaning that it does have it's purposes and shouldn't be hated because of the way some people use it to get drunk.

Of course Paul has plenty to say about not getting drunk as well, he says that the deacons of a church not to indulge in "much wine" (1 Timothy 3:8). He says that older women shouldn't be addicted to "much wine" (Titus 2:3), and he says in Ephesians 5:18 "Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.".

But actually, he never says that getting drunk is a sin! He says that it leads to sin, but I'm not so sure that getting drunk is a sin. In fact, Jesus gave the people at a wedding party more wine when they were already drunk (John 2:10)! Would He intentionally cause somebody to sin? Certianly not! However, I don't recommend getting drunk at all and I don't see the appeal in it as a Christian. We shouldn't rely on anything to escape reality or need to rely on anything for comfort other than Christ. Please please please don't get drunk because I told you I don't think it's a sin, like Paul says in Ephesians 5:18, it only leads to sin, don't walk a line you don't have to. And plus, you could potentially cause a brother to stumble into a lifestyle that Christ conquered in him! Alcoholism is an addiction, and a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him (2 Peter 2:19), and since being drunk leads to sin by being an alcoholic you're enslaving yourself to the sin that Christ set you free from (Romans 6). Therefore, it's best not to get drunk at all because of all the sin it leads to and because eventually you will be enslaved to it, and it very likely could destroy your life. Plus it's really bad for you.

That being said, it's perfectly understandable why most Christians have a problem with alcohol. Read Romans 14, I really like what it has to say about this issue. You should read the whole chapter, it really says alot about the subject of personal conviction and judgment. At least read from verse 19 to the end of the chapter though. Basically, if it's going to cause a brother to stumble don't do it around them, or at all. But I'm pretty sure "stumble" means cause them to sin, I don't think you can say "he stumbled me" unless you're talking about someone buying beer and causing you to become an alcoholic. However, you're not a victim if they do "cause you to stumble", you're still the one stumbling, they're not at fault for your sin.

Whew, I have a feeling I've just redirected this thread from being about judgement to being about getting drunk. But all that I said was still on topic and needed to be said. I hope the length of this post doesn't scare people away, I said a lot of things that most Christians shy away from.
 
I stumbled because I judged and only because of association, with me three pews behind him almost every sunday. My heart fell at the same time I stumbled for I saw him as the world would see him for the first time at our church. This was more of beware because my heart felt horrid until positive promise healed my heart and gave me more of a positive look on the matter. P.s wine is fine granny would say but to binge is sin. My granny was a nut like me:D
 
Well, now I'm not so sure about my whole "getting drunk isn't a sin" theory. Galatians 5:21 lists "drunkenness" as a characteristic of somebody who shall not inherit the kingdom of God. I'm not sure though because that could just as easily be talking about alcoholism rather than being drunk. But yeah, you should definitely try to be friends with this guy, like I said, maybe he just needs to see the love of Christ. So don't go up to him and say "you need to get yourself together", but just simply befriend him first and see where he's at. Chances are, if he's not saved, getting drunk is the least of his sins, he's a slave to sin if he's not a Christian.
 
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