Evolutionary theory and the test of time

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Some theories are good and have withstood the test of time well. The idea that all organisms, past and present, are interrelated by a process of ancestry and decent --- evolution --- is such a theory. On the other hand, some theories have stood the test of time poorly and are no longer credited with much explanatory power. Spontaneous generation --- the idea that organisms sprang from inorganic beginnings de novo, and are not all interelated --- has long been discarded as a useful scientific notion. It is taught in schools today, if at all, only as a historical curiosity.

The common expression "evolutionary theory" actually refers to two rather different sets of ideas: (1) the notion that absolutly all organisms living on the face of the Earth right now are descended from a single common ancestor, and (2) ideas of how the evolutionary process works --- how, for example, do new species arise from old ones, and what processes actually underlay the reduction from four toes to but a single digit on the front feet of horses during the course of their 50-million-year evolutionary history?

When scientist think about evolution in the first sence ---i.e., has it actually happened --- they strongly agree that it has, and many pronounce evolution in this sence to be fact. On the other hand, though biologist are in agreement on many of the basic mechanisms of the evolutionary process (the second sence of the expression "the theory of evolution"), many of the details are still being debated, as is healthy and normal in the unending human endeavor that is science.

All species on Earth are interrelated passes all tests to falsify it with flying colors --- and therefore that the theory of evolution in the first sence is as highly corroborated as any notion in science can be. Creationist are fond of pointing to the obvious fact that events that happened in the past are not subject to experimental verification or falsification, or to direct observation. After all, goes the creationist cry, no one was there at the beginning of the Cambrian Period to witness firsthand the supposed initial burst of evolutionary activity leading to the rapid evolution of complex animal life.

How can we study something scientifically that has already happened? Creationist also note that few reputable biologists seem willing to predict what will happen next in evolution. And after all, says the creationist, if evolution is truly a scientific theory it must be predictive --- in the narrow sence of "making statements about what the future will hold" (and, of course, inherently untestable to biologists living in the moment). According to this creationist interpretation of science, that biologists neither can nor will predict the evolutionary future is strong evidence that the very idea of evolution isn't really scientific at all.

All this fancy rhetoric beclouds the simple meaning of "predictivity" in science. All that "predictivity" really means is that if an idea is true, there should be certain consequences --- certain phenomena that we would expect --- predict ---to find if we looked. We should be able to go to nature --- to the physical, material world --- to see whether or not these predicted phenomena are really there. So, in this spirit, we simply ask, if the basic idea is correct that all organiams past and present are interrelated by a process of ancestry and descent that we call evolution, what should we expect to find in the real world as a consequence?

These observable consequences are the predictions we should be making --- not guesses about the future or "prophesy!"

Prediction 1: The very idea of evolution --- descent with modification --- implies that some species are more closely related to each other than they are to more distant relatives. Therefore, we predict that the living world is organized into groupings of closely similar species that are in turn parts of larger groups of more distant relatives that share fewer similarties, that are in turn parts of still larger groups with definate, if fewer, similarities. Eventually, the largest grouping of all --- all of life --- should be united by the shared possession of one or more characteristics.

In other words, if evolution is true, the living world should be organized in a hierarchical fashion of groups within groups --- a direct reflexion of how closely related to one another each organism is. In a very real sense, this prediction was discovered to hold true long before the idea of evolution was commonly accepted as the explanation for how the living world is organized. For at least a century before Charles Darwin (1809-1882) published On the Origen of Species by Means of Natural Selection, in 1859, biologists had recognized that life is organized into distinct groupings arranged in a natural, hierarchical fastion.
 
Now let's focus on the biggest transition of them all: Apes and Homo Sapiens or modern humans "evolving" from a "common ancestor." Evolutionists dogmatically contend that this happened, but is it possible? Is it scientifically possible for an ape and a human being to be the product of a common ancestor? They worry more about how it happened when they should worry about if it happened. They use some "examples" such as Pilt Down Man, Neanderthal Man, Homo Erectus, Nebraska Man etc, but these have all either been forgeries or been disproven, but we will touch on that later. The main reasons that evolutionists believe that apes and modern humans came from a "common ancestor" are the similarities between the two. As we have gone over before just because two species are similar doesn't mean they are "related in the sense of evolution" but that they had a common designer. Nobody would deny that humans and apes have many similarities. Some contend that apes and humans both have two arms and two legs. Actually, the ape has four legs, he is a knuckle walker. Apes are structured much like humans beings and are mammals just like modern man among other similarities and nobody would deny that. But did they "evolve" into humans? Another great similarity and probably the most used by evolutionists is the fact that the DNA or genetic make-up of an ape and Homo Sapiens are 98.4 % similar. In other words, apes and humans have 98.4 % of the same genes. Now that sounds like a lot but it isn't that cut and dried. We Scientists used to believe that we only used 3 % of our DNA make-up and the remaining 97 % was "junk DNA." However recent studies of molecular biologists, (especially Dr. Barney Maddox who made an incredible discovery) show that the remaining 97 % is NOT junk DNA after all. (Science News, "Does nonsense DNA speak it's own dialect?" Vol. 164, #24, 12/10/94) The 3 % is the genetic info with the recipes to build eyes, skin, hands, arms, legs, the heart, the liver, etc. and the remaining 97 % determines the environment which is just another example of "variation within the kind" as taught by the bible. (Genesis 1:21-25) It also keeps your fingernails on your fingers and not on your foreheads. As we have gone over before evolutionists commonly use examples of "genetic drift," "variation," and "natural selection" as "proof" for "vertical" evolution or "macro" evolution. One curious example would be a colt growing its coat slightly longer during the winter months. Its coat would remain relatively short during the spring and summer months and then in the winter it would grow its coat longer. How did it do that? That is an example of the use of the remaining 97 % of the so-called junk DNA, the part of the genetic make-up that determined the environment. No new information has arisen; the genetic info for growing the longer hair was already there. Evolutionists also cite the fact that rats have become immune to the effects of the drug Warfarin. The rats "evolved" to resist the drug. The fact is the genetic info for the resistance was already there. Naturally if you apply the drug to a group of 100 rats and ten possess the resistance to it, the ones without the info will be wiped out and the genetic info that they possess will also die with them. Only the ones with the resistance will survive and they will pass this resistance along to their descendants. Eventually, the entire population will possess this resistance giving the illusion that they evolved. Natural selection simply eliminated the ones without the resistance. Anyways, all you still have is a rat; it hasn't changed into a cow, or anything of the "macroevolutionary" sense, which is what evolution is all about. Evolutionists also cite that certain bacteria have "evolved" to resist antibiotics. The fact is in thawing sources of water that existed before antibiotics it was found that in many cases the resistance to antibiotics was ALREADY PRESENT in the DNA. No new genetic information arose in the bacteria; natural selection simply eliminated the ones without the resistance. The same would go for the San Jose Scale and other pests that have "evolved" to resist pesticides. In most cases the end result is a LOSS of genetic info, not the introduction of new info. (C. Wieland, "Superbugs: Not Super after All," Creation Ex Nihilo, 20(1): 10-13, June- Aug. 1992) As we have talked about before the fact that humans and apes have 98.4 % similarity in the DNA is nothing big. The 98.4 % is within the beginning 3 % of the DNA that builds eyes, ears, skin, hair, arms, legs, etc, all of which both humans and apes possess. It should also be noted that chimpanzees have 48 chromosomes and humans have 46 chromosomes. The DNA molecules of a chromosome are some of the most complex things in the entire universe. Why does a chimp have two more than a human being if evolution is all about INCREASING COMPLEXITY? A chimp should be inferior in all ways to a human if we evolved from them but yet they have two more chromosomes. Ask an evolutionist about that. Now to our next order of business. Is ape/man evolution possible? Chimps and humans have 98.4 % commonality in DNA structure. What we are about to go over is the major problem with the remaining 1.6 %.

In review, molecular biologists now know that only 3 % of the genes are expressed through the PHYSICAL characteristics of an organism such as a chimpanzee and a human being. The remaining 97 % instruct the genes how to perform under a given environment. The 98.4 % commonality between chimps and humans involve bone structure, hair, eyes, skin, ears, teeth, etc. The 1.6 % difference is the big problem. Dr. Barney Maddox has discovered that the 1.6 % consists of a difference of 48 million nucleotides. That is a vast difference but what he discovered destroyed the ape/man dogma completely. He discovered that if you combine ANY THREE of the 48 MILLION in succession it is lethal to the host organism. The host organism is either sterilized, killed, or its offspring are killed. What he discovered showed that it is BIOPHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for an ape and Homo Sapiens to have a common lineage. The genetic code protects against something of this nature. (C. Baugh, Why do Scientists Believe Evolution: Against All Odds?, Nov. 1999; HUMAN GENOME PROJECT: QUANTITATIVE DISPROOF OF EVOLUTION by Barney T. Maddox, M.D. COPYRIGHT 1992 - By Barney T. Maddox, M.D.)

Evolutionists provide a handful of so-called "proofs" of the ape/man evolution. As we discussed briefly before these "examples" are either forgeries or misidentification. Some of the commonly touted intermediates are Neanderthal Man, Nebraska Man, Pilt-Down Man, Homo Erectus (Java man), Australopithecus (Lucy), and Ramepithecus. Let's start with Pilt-Down Man. The Pilt-Down forgery is probably the greatest forgery of all-time. Many ardent evolutionists themselves were fooled because they were so desperate for proof of evolution. A human skull was doctored up with the jaw of an orangutan and the teeth were filed. Shows how honest some of these people are and they will resort to any means to "prove" evolution. The only original part of Nebraska Man was a pig's tooth. A man found a tooth that was obviously not of human origin and around this "single tooth" elaborate drawings were made of half-human, half-apes. It's turns out that the tooth was the tooth of an extinct pig. The tooth was the only original part. Eugene Dubois concocted Homo Erectus. Shortly before he died, Dubois himself confessed that he forged this. He found the skull fragment of an ape and fifty feet away he found a human leg bone. He also found two human skulls at the site and admitted that he linked the skull fragment of a gibbon with that of a human skull. Ramepithecus was formed out of a jaw fragment and several teeth, no leg bones or anything of that sort. Dr. Pillbeem of the Yale-Harvard Peabody Museum was the first to declare that the Ramepithecines (of which about fifty have been found) were "transitional" but he has since rejected it and has said that these were not on the line to become Homo Sapiens. Donald Johansen discovered Australopithecus. This was a 3 1/2 foot tall skeleton of what was supposedly an ape-man link. Johansen declared that this creature walked upright and even if it did that proves nothing, the Pygmy Chimp wanders the rainforests this very day walking upright almost all of the time. The only things that even hint at erect posture of Lucy are the hip and knee joints. The knee joint was found over a mile away and two hundred feet deeper than the rest of the bones. Dr. Charles Oxnard, (an evolutionist himself) who studied Lucy extensively for two years did a computer analysis of the hip joint of Lucy and concluded that Johansen's claim that it walked upright because of the hip joint were unfounded. Oxnard also stated that while Lucy is indeed an unusual chimpanzee she is not on the direct road to becoming man. Lucy was a bona-fide chimpanzee. Furthermore, Lucy had an angled femur, which is typical of an arboreal, or tree-climbing ape. Lastly, the knee-joint is irreducibly complex. It could not have been built up by numerous successive modifications. (www.trueorigin.org/knee.htm) The knee joint end of the femur was also severely crushed which makes Johansen's claim pure speculation. There is also no conclusive fossil evidence for all these modifications. The Kanopoi hominid and Castenedelo Man walked upright BEFORE Lucy! (Gary E. Parker, "Origin of Mankind," p.4) Last, but not least, supposedly the final stage before Homo Sapiens evolved, Neanderthal Man. These were originally found in the Neanderthal Valley in Germany, hence the name, Neanderthal Man. Many of these had a very stooped over and brutish appearance and that is the main reason that evolutionists believe that these were ape-man missing links. A group of scientists from Johns Hopkins University went over to the museum and examined the ones with a stooped over appearance and discovered that they had an acute case of rickets or some other form of Vitamin D deficiency such as arthritis. Neanderthal has since been reclassified with modern man and not an ape-man link. However, many textbooks still use Neanderthal Man as an "alleged" ape-man link when it has been disproven for several years. Neanderthal Man also had a brain case more than 13 percent larger then modern man! That is the opposite of evolution. (R.L. Wysong, The Creation Evolution Controversy, 1981, p.296) The biggest link in the evolutionary chain has collapsed.




http://www.reachingforchrist.org/apologetics/fallacies_cont.html?
 
I loved this reply, I know it was a cut n' paste, it is non-the-less AWESOME

Back to the original post...

Typical evolutionist backpeddling, that is all this segment is. First, they can't explain how life devoloped. And this segment defines evolution to NOT include how life developed. But, it is not that simple, and I am not going to let you off that easy.

Evolution must also explain how the common ancestor came about. Did it spontaneously come about (which this post has discarded already in the first paragraph), or did it evolve from something else? And what would be that something else?

And I will hold that this issue must also be addressed. You can not simply simple say that evolution can explain all life today without discussing how the common ancestor came about. After all, that common ancestor is the premise and foundation of your position.
 
My own cut & paste, but this should help to clear the discussion...

Evolution is neither the concept of life originating from non-life nor man descending from apes.  Evolution is simply the observed process of mutation and natural selection which lead to alterations of organisms over generations.

The concept of life developing from non-life involves the field of chemical evolution, which is entirely different from biological evolution.

And the concept of humans descending from apes?  This is its own argument that relies on evolution as a premise.  The same is true for the concept of all life descending from a single cell.


Chemical evolution is not a premise for biological evolution.  Chemical evolution deals with the formation of biological molecules, the cell, etc.  Whereas biological evolution deals with the observed modification of organisms through generations.  The reason that chemical evolution is not a premise for biological evolution is that there are multiple possibilities for the formation of life.  And regardless of what caused life(chemical evolution, creation, etc), that life is affected in the ways described by biological evolution.


If you'd like to learn more, talkorigins is a good site.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CndBacon @ Sep. 18 2003,3:28)]I loved this reply, I know it was a cut n' paste, it is non-the-less AWESOME

Back to the original post...

Typical evolutionist backpeddling, that is all this segment is. First, they can't explain how life devoloped. And this segment defines evolution to NOT include how life developed. But, it is not that simple, and I am not going to let you off that easy.

Evolution must also explain how the common ancestor came about. Did it spontaneously come about (which this post has discarded already in the first paragraph), or did it evolve from something else? And what would be that something else?

And I will hold that this issue must also be addressed. You can not simply simple say that evolution can explain all life today without discussing how the common ancestor came about. After all, that common ancestor is the premise and foundation of your position.
See, Bacon, this is where atheists and Christians differ the most. While Christians are feel insecure if they cannot "know" the answer to every question of the universe, science is ok with saying "we don't know". We don't have to know everything at once. Evolution is totally seperate from abiogenesis. Just because abiogenesis had to precede evolution for evolution to occur, they are not related, nor do they need to be (or should they be) discussed together. Plus, there *are* theories regarding abiogenesis, but as science is not my field, I really couldn't tell you much about them.


Edit ----> NO ONE besides Creationists ever claim that evolution says that man comes from apes. Ever. It is claimed that apes and humans had a *common ancestor*, but not that they wer once the same creature. THAT is why monkeys and apes are still around - there's no reason for them not to be.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]While Christians are feel insecure if they cannot "know" the answer to every question of the universe,

I don't feel I need to know everything in the universe..besides there not being enough time to do so , what would I gain ? My opinion relating to the evolution discussion is this : The Bible tells me that God created life ... and I believe that...How He went about it I don't know and frankly dont care to spend too much time thinking about it ...
 
That's fine, kasimir, I respect that...that wasn't directed to you, it was directed at those who try to build a god of the gaps, saying "Yeah, but what about....." and then pointing out something that is disputed in the scientific community and/or currently unexplainable. np
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (illegal prophet @ Sep. 19 2003,8:39)]My own cut & paste, but this should help to clear the discussion...

Evolution is neither the concept of life originating from non-life nor man descending from apes.  Evolution is simply the observed process of mutation and natural selection which lead to alterations of organisms over generations.

The concept of life developing from non-life involves the field of chemical evolution, which is entirely different from biological evolution.
Sorry, you are twisting meanings to support what ever position you are taking.

Biological evolution takes places at the genetic\chemical level.  A change in a gene is a chemical change (or evolution) in a cell, strand of DNA, a goof up in RNA or protein.  How do you think the biological change takes place?  An arm all of a sudden decided to grow a hand?  And that hand all of a sudden decided to grow some fingers?  And those fingers all of a sudden decide to grow some fingernails?

NO

These changes occour in our life cycle development because of the chemical make up of our DNA.

A very fundamentalist view of your definition is that as soon as the "chemical evolution" created life, chemicals stopped playing a part altogether in our lives.

A change in the DNA to go from a common ancestor to apes and men is a FUNDAMENTAL CHEMICAL CHANGE in the make up of DNA.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Edit ----> NO ONE besides Creationists ever claim that evolution says that man comes from apes. Ever. It is claimed that apes and humans had a *common ancestor*, but not that they wer once the same creature. THAT is why monkeys and apes are still around - there's no reason for them not to be.

Hey Timor, go through every one of my posts and you'll see that I have always stated the common ancestory -> apes/men.  Never that men came from apes.  And as one of the biggest supporters of creation, and having read hundreds of books and articles by creationists, I can say, that the percentage of creationists that claim ape to man evolution is so insignificantly small, its absurd to even make the claim you have.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]See, Bacon, this is where atheists and Christians differ the most. While Christians are feel insecure if they cannot "know" the answer to every question of the universe, science is ok with saying "we don't know". We don't have to know everything at once. Evolution is totally seperate from abiogenesis. Just because abiogenesis had to precede evolution for evolution to occur, they are not related, nor do they need to be (or should they be) discussed together. Plus, there *are* theories regarding abiogenesis, but as science is not my field, I really couldn't tell you much about them.

Abiogenesis is a first step in evolution.  It is a twist that says that two things that are interrelated are not related at all.

Did evolution of life stop when life was created, or is it continueing on today?  As others have argued over and over and over and over again, the two are seperate and are not related at all.  Sounds like Science trying to copy the Christian view point, attempt to show the world that we are close in our view points, and then say Christians are just resistant to the small step required to accept what we have to say.

Christian view point:

Step 1:God created life.
Step 2:Life multiplied according to its kinds.

Science view point:

Step 1:Chemical evolution created life, the common ancestor.
Step 2:Life multiplied according to biological evolution.

It seems more like science immitating Christianity.  And it seems more like science is uncomfortable with not knowing.  Because if it [science] was comfortable with simply accepting God created life with out explaination, then why all the fuss?


----EDIT----
Abiogenesis is simply the study of the first step of evolution.  There are many steps to the current theory of evolution and each step is studied under a different "scientific" name.   Each step is unique, it does not mean each step is seperate from or not related to each other.  Evolution is an umbrella that includes all the steps from non-living to living, from common ancestor to what whe have today, right down to the molecular level.  It is only science that attempts to seperate them, I suppose so they can say:  oo oo, we aren't talking about the same thing here, get on the same page Christians.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CndBacon @ Sep. 21 2003,11:40)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Edit ----> NO ONE besides Creationists ever claim that evolution says that man comes from apes. Ever. It is claimed that apes and humans had a *common ancestor*, but not that they wer once the same creature. THAT is why monkeys and apes are still around - there's no reason for them not to be.

Hey Timor, go through every one of my posts and you'll see that I have always stated the common ancestory -> apes/men. Never that men came from apes. And as one of the biggest supporters of creation, and having read hundreds of books and articles by creationists, I can say, that the percentage of creationists that claim ape to man evolution is so insignificantly small, its absurd to even make the claim you have.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]See, Bacon, this is where atheists and Christians differ the most. While Christians are feel insecure if they cannot "know" the answer to every question of the universe, science is ok with saying "we don't know". We don't have to know everything at once. Evolution is totally seperate from abiogenesis. Just because abiogenesis had to precede evolution for evolution to occur, they are not related, nor do they need to be (or should they be) discussed together. Plus, there *are* theories regarding abiogenesis, but as science is not my field, I really couldn't tell you much about them.

Abiogenesis is a first step in evolution. It is a twist that says that two things that are interrelated are not related at all.

Did evolution of life stop when life was created, or is it continueing on today? As others have argued over and over and over and over again, the two are seperate and are not related at all. Sounds like Science trying to copy the Christian view point, attempt to show the world that we are close in our view points, and then say Christians are just resistant to the small step required to accept what we have to say.

Christian view point:

Step 1:God created life.
Step 2:Life multiplied according to its kinds.

Science view point:

Step 1:Chemical evolution created life, the common ancestor.
Step 2:Life multiplied according to biological evolution.

It seems more like science immitating Christianity. And it seems more like science is uncomfortable with not knowing. Because if it [science] was comfortable with simply accepting God created life with out explaination, then why all the fuss?


----EDIT----
Abiogenesis is simply the study of the first step of evolution. There are many steps to the current theory of evolution and each step is studied under a different "scientific" name. Each step is unique, it does not mean each step is seperate from or not related to each other. Evolution is an umbrella that includes all the steps from non-living to living, from common ancestor to what whe have today, right down to the molecular level. It is only science that attempts to seperate them, I suppose so they can say: oo oo, we aren't talking about the same thing here, get on the same page Christians.
First off, about the apes/men thing, I was not wrong in my generalization. For one thing, I didn't say that ALL creationists said that - that would make my statement false. I said that ONLY creationists, as in, nobody in the scientifid community, ever says that. Furthermore, the majority of the Creationist population is not capable of writing a paper on evolution (then again, neither are the people writing the ones you read, but..). The majority have close to no understanding of evolution.

Moving on, the simple fact is that you cannot just mix apples and oranges. Abiogenesis deals with how life began, while evolution deals with how life changes and continues to live. Is life still arising from non-life? Perhaps - how would we really know, if its occuring in nature on the microscopic level?

Science is not *uncomfortable* with knowing. Science wants to know, and likes to know, but isn't ashamed to say it *doesn't* know. Science IS uncomfortable with myth, however.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Sorry, you are twisting meanings to support what ever position you are taking.

Not at all.  Actually, I'd say that the opposite is true.  If you'd like to understand the difference between chemical evolution and biological evolution, you should do some reading on the subjects.  You'll see that the concepts regarding the formation of the original DNA, the first cellular structure, etc, are far different from the processes of biological evolution.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]A very fundamentalist view of your definition is that as soon as the "chemical evolution" created life, chemicals stopped playing a part altogether in our lives.
It would be absurd to think that biological evolution doesn't involve chemical reactions.  However, my definitions, or rather the definitions of scientists, don't imply that.  Instead, I attempted to show that "chemical evolution" and "biological evolution" are each seperate; a hypothesis to explain how life originated, and theory describing the mechanism in which organisms descend with genetic modifications.
 
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