Children of God?

Patriot

Patriot

Active Member
Since this spawned in the gambling thread and doesn't really relate I thought I would break this off. Mostly because I wanted to respond to it but didn't want to hijack the other thread any more than it had been.

Avesther said:
Alcoholics, who are by definition still brothers and sisters (let me digress a second and define a brother and sister: Anybody who shares the same father. We all share the same father, some simply haven't acknowledged God as the father), are stumbling all over the place...is your not enjoying a beer having any effect?
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Sassamo said:
I don't think this has much effect on the root of the current topic, but I felt I had to inject something here:

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Just to name a few!
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Avesther said:
Ephesians 4:4-6
4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Emphasis added

If I'm taking that out of context, apparently, I take everything out of context, feel free to let me know.

If you haven't accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, then you don't know your father because you can only know the Father through the Son. But does that change that the one God is the Father of all? I don't think so.

Jesus said we can not serve to masters. I assume master one is God, the true and only master, or you can replace master one with any one of your choosing serve it, like alcoholism or drugs or sex or lies or whatever your heart desired but all that doesn't change that God is the Father of all. I'm probably wrong, I usually am on these things.

I'm done with this topic. Have a good evening\morning all.

My prayer for you all is that God Blesses you with the wisdom in all things he has not blessed me with and more.
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Suffice to say, the question is, since God created all of us (humans) is God everyone's father?

I tend to think, in the creation sense, yes, God is everyone's father in that he created everyone. This is evidenced in the verses Avesther posted (Eph 4:4-6). However, since Scripture needs to live harmoniously with Scripture we are forced to deal with the verses that Sassamo lists out as well as my personal favorite when dealing with this topic:

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

So I conclude that while we have a maker/father in the creation sense, we also have a spiritual father, God or the devil, depending on the status of our adoption. Being God's creation affords you no special rights or privileges; He's pretty much promised to burn most of his creation. Only being a Child of God in the spiritual sense do you get the privilege of being an adopted heir. I would never call the unredeemed my brother or sister in the spiritual sense (which happens to be the usage in the New Testament).
 
While there is no right to being a co-heir with Christ, God still gives good gifts to those who do not accept him as their spiritual father. God does so not because of who we are or what we have done or not done rather because of who God is and what God is. The distinction between a common creator father and a spiritual father is probably the best way to put how I see things. Better words from you then I on the subject Patriot.

God said to love one another, to love our brothers and sisters and to love our neighbor. And when asked who is our neighbor, he essentially said anybody who is in need. Not just brothers and sisters in Christ.

We are also warned to not show favoritism with our love and charity. Does that mean we are to say to the unsaved, sorry, because you are not my brother in Christ I will do less for you the I will for my brother in Christ? I don't think that was the intent.

If we are to be telling the world of the Kingdom, then living as if it were here now would seem to be the order of the day. Which means to love your neighbor, regardless.

So when I see my unsaved friend, I see my brother of a common creator but not my brother sharing my faith. But I do not see somebody whom I should love any less, or show less charity towards or show less gratitude towards. I want him to experience living in the kingdom so that they will want more of it, I will not withhold from him for lack of a common spiritual father.
 
Patriot said:
1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

So I conclude that while we have a maker/father in the creation sense, we also have a spiritual father, God or the devil, depending on the status of our adoption. Being God's creation affords you no special rights or privileges; He's pretty much promised to burn most of his creation.
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Ah, so only those who do what is right... and yet all have sinned... interesting.

Also, God has pretty much promised to burn most of his creation, eh? What's the difference between having God in charge and the devil in charge, now?
 
Interesting quote to throw in here... comes from Fr. Vincent Donovan, although it originates from the mouth of an African tribal leader:

"This High God you serve -- does he love Christians more than he loves pagans? For if he did, would he not be more of a tribal god than our previous gods?"

God loves all people, even those who don't love him -- otherwise he would have never waited to punish his enemies, nor would he have sent his son.

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@Lazarus: when Batman promises he will bring a criminal to face justice, does this make him a criminal?

I find it astounding how good we can be at putting together scriptures to support the strangest notions, such as that God's justice == Satan's justice.

Justice only works when the person dispensing the justice is just.

If the Joker promised a villain that he would bring him to justice, you wouldn't even know what that meant.

Equating God's justice to Satan's justice -- even if you don't believe in either -- is fairly silly.

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Back to the main topic, I think you're going to have to look at the context of all of the above verses to figure out what Jesus, Paul, and John were getting at. Chances are, they aren't talking about the same things.
 
To add to the idea of different "senses" of what our fathers are...I think about it this way. In John 3, Jesus said that none will enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again. This spiritual birth is only experienced by those who believe Jesus. Since only "born again" people are born again, it makes sense that only they would have a spiritual father, and the unsaved will perish in the lake of fire.

Another way to look at it is when Jesus was at the temple (at 12yo), he said that his sisters and brothers were those who were of his heavenly father, not his blood relatives.

I think it's pretty clear there is a distinction between sons/daughters of God and otherwise. We just need to remember that it is not by our merit, but Jesus', that we are saved.
 
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Avesther said:
]We are also warned to not show favoritism with our love and charity. Does that mean we are to say to the unsaved, sorry, because you are not my brother in Christ I will do less for you the I will for my brother in Christ? I don't think that was the intent.
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Actually, does it not say somewhere to make sure we take care of our own before others? I don't remember whether the reference of 'our own' was more other Christians or our family.
 
James 2:1-13 forbids favoritism. Though while some will argue that passage is about not showing favoritism amongst believers, there is actually nothing in the passage that would lead me to come to the same conclusion. As a matter of fact, James says:

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

I think the context of this is pretty self explanatory: Showing favoritism amongst any of your neighbors is forbidden. And Jesus defines our neighbors as anybody who needs help, regardless of their profession of faith. It is not for us to judge who receives and experiences Gods love through us.
 
Indy, you may be thinking of Galatians 6:10

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Galatians 6:10 (NIV)

Still, I don't know that I'd go so far as to say, "take care of believers first." Jesus also teaches that we are to reach out to those who are not "us" in The Good Samaritan and The Sheep and the Goats. Personally, I don't think it is either/or but both.

Of course, I am a bit biased. I've sat in church board meetings where people say, "How can we even think about reaching out when we are not taking care of our own?" That is a false argument for not reaching out.
 
I think you might be right on that verse, Abba San. When I am thinking about how I use my time, service, money, etc...let me liken it to filling glasses.
What I don't do/promote: I don't fill my own glass(believers) first, and then see what I have to pour into another's glass(non-churched). Oh, too bad, I couldn't fill your cup.
What I try to do/promote: Let's put some in my cup. Now let's put some in another's. Do I have more left? Okay, put some in mine. Now put some in another's. Do I have more left? Okay, put....(etc)
 
Galatians 6:10 is an excellent reminder verse, maybe one that should be put into my signature.

Galatians 6:10, as I read it speaks to me this way:

Don't forget to take the opportunity to treat each other right, even while you are busy with my work. I think Christians generally treat each other horribly because we are quick to use the trump card: You have to forgive me, I'm human, and if you don't forgive me, then you are a bad Christian. After all, I'm busy saving souls for Jesus don't ya know that? Not everybody is this but I have seen it happen far more often then it ought.

One of the links in my signature is to Colossians in which we are commanded to bear with one another, put up with each others little nuances, quick to forgive each other, no matter how badly we are treated. To some, it is a license to treat each other horribly. But read with Galatians 6:10, you see the reverse. To treat each other, better then we do. If we actually loved each other as commanded, we wouldn't have to be told to bear with each other. Stupid human condition.
 
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