Why is it Ok To Kill?

[Shyfroggy]

but you aren't willing to see ANY of the connections that I have brought up

well you haven't really been willing to see ANY of my connections either...

 

[Tek7 (Legacy)]

Thread moved to Religious Discussion.

 

[Master~Plan]

I'm a little disturbed by the idea of playing a videogame such as Counter Strike for "His glory."

as am I. I see games only as fun.

is kind of akin to the mindset of those who particpated in the Crusades...you know, the ones who mercilessly slaughtered their enemies and pillaged conquered villages?

Whoa hey, quite a drastic jump there.
why don't you back up and explain how "pillaging" equates to computer games? How about you establish some proof that haveing enemies is necessary to play computer games? And please define slaughter. After people are slaughtered, they don't come back to life. When the crusades took place, the people didn't pop up after the slaughter for round 2. I could go on, but are you sincere when you equate the two?

Sure, you aren't actually killing anyone, but you're simulating it, and this you cannot deny.

its true

It's also not helped by the fact that Counter Strike is a FPS that leans more towards realism in the depiction of its settings. You're killing a representation of another real human being, it doesn't matter what fatigues they're wearing.

No, you are wrong. If I am represented by the game, I'm in great trouble. I am not a terrorist. I am not a counter terrorist. I am not a pyro, or a medic. No one on the other side believes me to be. The only way to stop me from caping the flag is to 'kill' my guy and make him respawn. If the game was an accurate representation of me, and if after I got 'killed' I didn't come back to life(ever), then I would agree the game would be sick. Because the point of the game would be to simulate killing as opposed to controlling a map or caping a flag.

Do you think Jesus enjoyed gladiatorial combat? You can counter that videogames are "virtual", but how does pretending make it OK?

it makes it "OK" because nothing is at stake.
Lets assume you are correct and the repesented killing is wrong. Then we have a lot of work to do. If you write a fictional book or a poem, no body better kill anybody else. You better take all the play swords from little kids.(and be careful they don't pick up any sticks) Better snatch up those nerf guns too. Legos are right out of the question. We wouldn't want little Johnny to have one lego man lob off anther lego man's head(I loved legos ). GI Joe- right out of the question. Squirt guns? definatly not. No more lava monster on the swing set, it would be a sin to pull someone into a lava pit. No more freeze tag. Paintball, gone. Lazer tag, gone. Chess, gone. Risk, gone. Clue- alrite, Clue can stay. No more erasing or throwing away pictures of stick figures. Can't knock over cities made of blocks, make sure those mini race cars are driven according to law.

You miss it man, we are just playing games

 

[Eon]

Don't forget the new rules when discussing this topic - it's an interesting one and I'd like to see it not getting locked down.

 

[Dark Virtue]

but you aren't willing to see ANY of the connections that I have brought up

well you haven't really been willing to see ANY of my connections either...

I might if you would answer the questions I have asked you

 

[Dark Virtue]

I still fail to see why it's ok to simulate violent acts, killing and murder...all while claiming you are doing it to glorify God.

 

[Genesis1315]

Don't forget the new rules when discussing this topic - it's an interesting one and I'd like to see it not getting locked down.

They are not new rules, just very strictly enforced rules. Please stay on topic

Gen

 

[Macattak1]

"Again, for example, Doom III is off limits to me. It is just to evil for me." I don't mean to question you on your decision on this particular game, but I recently heard that some people interpret DOOM 3 to be a Christian game. It's about a man fighting off demons and the forces of Hell. I'm not taking a side on that, but I found it to be an interesting perspective on the game I thought I'd share.

Doom III is one of the most violent, evil, satanic, etc. games out. I am not calling it of Satan. That is another issue all together. What I am saying is that it does not get much worse in mainstream games.

Christians dont slay evil, save the day, stop satan, etc. God does. Satan, in fact, loves it when man brings God down to his level and act like he can work in the same ways as God. The game is nothing Christian about it. One reason God Hates Wizards is because their is no faith or love and they work with the devil. Well, technology, in the game is almost the same. It is man's weapon against evil. God is not the Sword. The BFG is. Man is relying on everything but God, until the ammo runs out...

"Anti Social interaction which is basically what computers, in all their uses are, even IM'ing, Forums, etc." I have to disagree with you on this. Gaming has become quite social for me. Often I'll be at a friend's place and we'll play Madden while chatting over something. When I'm at school I play family in games like Halo 2 and it gives me an opportunity to chat with them and see what's going on. Sure I could pick up the phone, but it would just be a voice conversation instead of some sort of interaction. It's kind of like playing basketball or Monopoly with them from the other side of the state.

I see your points. But still, PC's Limit the interaction between people. Only for the blind and the deaf do they perchance actually open things up some. It is anti social as you can very easily:

Drop out at any time, unanounced and give an excuse later.
Put little energy into really communicating with another person.
It takes a bit of concentration. Communication stops to facilitate this.
You can play anytime v/s commit to a date, phone time, meal, etc.

Computers are single player. Even Madden 06 is single player. You verses the comp or you verses your buddy. Chess is not an overly social game. They just sit there and think, move, time, think, move time...

A phone call where you pay attention is social. So is a dinner, date, converstation, etc. If one tries to watch TV, eat, or talk to other people while I am on the phone with them the converstation ends pretty quick. It is appropriate social behavior to look into peoples eyes, listen to them, dialog with them as a prime concern, not as a secondary concern, etc. Think good behaviour, socially appropriate. Not rude, ignoring, standoffish, etc.


Peace to you!

 

[Macattak1]

I asked what you DO think about when you play the game.

I think about the day I had. I think about how my children in my classroom are growing and changing. I think about my dog. I think about my relationship with my husband...And while I'm playing I talk to my husband, talk to my dog, and sometimes even talk on the phone with my mom. So it isn't all about KILL KILL KILL...I'm not that type of person...besides if that was the way I was thinking I would seriously think that it was time to back off of CS for a while.

Here I was thinking that they called it Escapism because you could forget about all that stuff as you Emersed yourself into the game.

I am 110% sure that it is rude to speak to someone on the phone while you are playing games? I am pretty sure that the top 1000 Polite Police members of the world would agree. That 'may' with your mom, but I bet if you asked her she would say she would really rather have you paying more attention to her.

Talk to me or call me later. Dont chew apples on the phone into the mic and dont play games or read a book while we talk on the phone.

 

[Macattak1]

Again, How can you play a game for the Glory of God?

Eric Liddel ran Track to the Glory of God in many ways. Just running does not make him running for the Glory of God. Just because you Say you are a Christian and you are a Runner, a Gammer, a Hunter, etc. does not mean you are doing it for the Glory of God.

Simply Saying that you are doing it for the Glory of God is not sufficient. A claim is backed up. But not true until backed up.

Eric Liddle (Chariots of Fire) ran for the Glory of God in that he Attributed all his success to God. He was even supposed to be a horrible runner as he ran all funky. But he won and thanked God. He basically said, not verbatium, that he ran the first half of the race with all he had and then the last half with what ever God gave him. I believe it was better said than that because that still misses the mark.

He also ran for the Glory of God in that he did not run in the Olympics on his Sabbath and lost that race and his team, knowing his dedication swallowed that loss with love for him. He did it for love of His Father. Even if not required, he showed the Glory of God in him by passing on one of the most humanly important events in his entire life.

I try to do everything for the Glory of God. And personaly, I fail about 15 seconds into it. I forget that I building the fence with the skill that God gave me and wether my neighbor pays me for 1/2 or not I do a good job, etc. But minutes into it I forget and start wishing they would pay me as I am broke and I am doing all the tearing down and removing and rebuilding....

But perhaps others can maintain focus way better than I?

Can you search on suitcases to the Glory of God?
Can you read the Yahoo news to the Glory of God?
Can you play a game on a server to the Glory of God with other people that you can not chat to (Chat spamming to the players during game would be a no no), or that you can not talk to (not everyone has voip, teamspeak, is on your squad, team, etc.).

Please show me how you one can do things to the Glory of God. I am thinking that this implies many aspects of the spiritual life and dedication to Christ.

I often hear "Bob is an awesome Christian. He owns the AAA shop down the road. I trust him with anything, especially my cars"

I dont hear "Bob is an awesome Christian Mechanic. If he fixes your car God will ensure it keeps running" or "He prays over it the whole time he is working on it" etc.

You dont mopp the floor, take a beating as a slave, starve to death, etc. to the Glory of God. It is they way you do it that shows the Glory of God through you. You dont complain, get mad, hate, turn against God, etc. It is not how clean the floor is or how great of a beating you took, or how long or short you took to die with out eating. It is how you did it is it not????

Peace

 

[balrogdude27]

Wow, I am amazed at the length this disscussion has gotten 2! When I play CS i dont think of killing them, I think of it as Eliminating them so I can declare my team the winner. I played a Nerf computer game where you run around with nerf guns and shoot eachother one time, I see CS the exact same, just with no gore and no death. But it is bassicaly the same idea, ELIMINATE. I dont see what is wrong with that, I can see why GTA or Serious sam are bad, (Except in Serious sam i think u only kill zombies and monsters and whatnot.) I never scream: "YES! I BLEW HIS !&*(*&^ HEAD OFF! I AM THE GREATEST PWNER IN THE WORLD! I OWN ALL! I WILL KILL ALL!" That is the wrong way to play and i have seen people actually play like that.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Wow, I am amazed at the length this disscussion has gotten 2! When I play CS i dont think of killing them, I think of it as Eliminating them so I can declare my team the winner. I played a Nerf computer game where you run around with nerf guns and shoot eachother one time, I see CS the exact same, just with no gore and no death. But it is bassicaly the same idea, ELIMINATE. I dont see what is wrong with that, I can see why GTA or Serious sam are bad, (Except in Serious sam i think u only kill zombies and monsters and whatnot.) I never scream: "YES! I BLEW HIS !&*(*&^ HEAD OFF! I AM THE GREATEST PWNER IN THE WORLD! I OWN ALL! I WILL KILL ALL!" That is the wrong way to play and i have seen people actually play like that.

Say what?

How do you eliminate someone in CS? You kill them.

What happens when you get eliminated in CS? You diebecause you were shot and killed.

Call it whatever you want, it's still killing.

(this one is for Marcy...)

You can put a bow on a pig and sit him in a pew, but it's still a pig.

Or my personal favorite at the moment...A cat can give birth to kittens in an oven, but that don't make them biscuits.

<edited to remove unneeded emphasis>

 

[Dark Virtue]

Again, How can you play a game for the Glory of God?

Eric Liddel ran Track to the Glory of God in many ways. Just running does not make him running for the Glory of God. Just because you Say you are a Christian and you are a Runner, a Gammer, a Hunter, etc. does not mean you are doing it for the Glory of God.

Simply Saying that you are doing it for the Glory of God is not sufficient. A claim is backed up. But not true until backed up.

Eric Liddle (Chariots of Fire) ran for the Glory of God in that he Attributed all his success to God. He was even supposed to be a horrible runner as he ran all funky. But he won and thanked God. He basically said, not verbatium, that he ran the first half of the race with all he had and then the last half with what ever God gave him. I believe it was better said than that because that still misses the mark.

He also ran for the Glory of God in that he did not run in the Olympics on his Sabbath and lost that race and his team, knowing his dedication swallowed that loss with love for him. He did it for love of His Father. Even if not required, he showed the Glory of God in him by passing on one of the most humanly important events in his entire life.

I try to do everything for the Glory of God. And personaly, I fail about 15 seconds into it. I forget that I building the fence with the skill that God gave me and wether my neighbor pays me for 1/2 or not I do a good job, etc. But minutes into it I forget and start wishing they would pay me as I am broke and I am doing all the tearing down and removing and rebuilding....

But perhaps others can maintain focus way better than I?

Can you search on suitcases to the Glory of God?
Can you read the Yahoo news to the Glory of God?
Can you play a game on a server to the Glory of God with other people that you can not chat to (Chat spamming to the players during game would be a no no), or that you can not talk to (not everyone has voip, teamspeak, is on your squad, team, etc.).

Please show me how you one can do things to the Glory of God. I am thinking that this implies many aspects of the spiritual life and dedication to Christ.

I often hear "Bob is an awesome Christian. He owns the AAA shop down the road. I trust him with anything, especially my cars"

I dont hear "Bob is an awesome Christian Mechanic. If he fixes your car God will ensure it keeps running" or "He prays over it the whole time he is working on it" etc.

You dont mopp the floor, take a beating as a slave, starve to death, etc. to the Glory of God. It is they way you do it that shows the Glory of God through you. You dont complain, get mad, hate, turn against God, etc. It is not how clean the floor is or how great of a beating you took, or how long or short you took to die with out eating. It is how you did it is it not????

Peace

Excellent posts!

 

[Avesther]

To me, its a game. Plain and simple. For pure entertainment, enjoyment. CS or any game in which a goal is to eliminate the opposition is not killing. Killing involves taking a life and if you equate what you are doing on the computer monitor to actually taking a life, then may I suggest you seek professional help to deal with your inability to judge reality from fantasy. Maybe, you should turn yourself in at the local police station, you are after all, killing people right?

 

[PapaToad]

My parents have told me that killing in games is wrong. I want to believe them and obey them because they are good christian believers who want what is best for me. I got counterstrike Source with HL2 and bought 1.6 seperataly. I think my parents will be ok with me playing it if I get some good reasons why it is OK to play games where you kill people. I Think it is fine, because it is not real and is harmless fun. But i want REAL reasons. Like scripture and other biblical reasons. Please help me on this one! I would think this belongs here because it has to do with CS and i want to join ur guys clan if i am good enough.

Why is it ok to kill, This has raged since dawn immortal, Or since Cain and Able I would hazard a cliché’

Your parents have chosen to communicate that killing in games is wrong. That is their right and the values they wish to institute in you. The leader of the CS team has written a wonderful “paper” on this and I believe it is linked in the 1st few pages of this discussion.

Is it ever ok to kill even in a game; violence is a way of life, and those who can not protect themselves become victims. Even as little kids play, solider, cops and robbers, Cowboys and Indians, we make the analogy in our minds, there are heroes and villains, good guys and bad guys, winners and losers.

This is life as its pinnacle. I taught my children violence tempered with wisdom and mercy. I did this before I was a Christian, while a Christian and a stand I believe firmly in. If you or anybody has had the privilege never to never have encountered a violent situation. You are blessed, lucky or both.

A man woman or child has the unalienable right to protect themselves with temperance, mercy and intelligence with in reason. I could have easily been a villain, but I had children and while I did not mind being who I was, I did not want to raise villains too, they world was screwed up enough with out me adding more of me.

So I decided to raise productive and decent little citizens. That’s what I did. There are many wonderful pastors and teachers here, you need to pm and find bible verses that support protection. And that’s what it is, Killing is wrong; that spans multiple religions and cultures. It can not be questioned or side stepped.

But the right of the people to protect themselves from injustice and violence is a right we all have. In the Bible God used men to kill, destroy and protect and punish. I have a wonderful friend who is a US Marshall who takes his duty to protect to a complete “God ordained” level. Thank goodness he is also a very humble and god fearing Christian.

The hardest challenge you face is the killing/protection issue. Your parents will probably say that it’s the same. It isn’t and your challenge is to express that in a way your parents can understand.

But some folks feel any sort of violence is unnecessary. Then you are in a bind. I would encourage you not to rebel against them but just keep trying to respectfully present your convictions with intelligence and research as a mature young man.

When I was a lad, I wanted to play D&D, my parent heard nothing but the propaganda at the time, I talked and begged my mom, she was set. I found out everything I could on it and even talked with a teacher on how to show her I would not be come some freaked out teen playing mazes and monsters in the sewers. That teacher did and I keep up my grades and maintain a decent attitude and my mother allowed me to play it. But it didn’t happen over night.

Good Luck, and remember there are a tone of God fearing folks here who will help you present it in a mature way, use your resources!

 

[Dark Virtue]

To me, its a game. Plain and simple. For pure entertainment, enjoyment. CS or any game in which a goal is to eliminate the opposition is not killing. Killing involves taking a life and if you equate what you are doing on the computer monitor to actually taking a life, then may I suggest you seek professional help to deal with your inability to judge reality from fantasy. Maybe, you should turn yourself in at the local police station, you are after all, killing people right?

Looks like we will have to take baby steps in this discussion.

In CS...what do you have to do to "eliminate" the opposition?

You kill them, no?

You are taking a life. Plain and simple. Why is this so difficult to admit to?

Yes, it's a virtual representation, but you are still going through the motions of performing the action.

 

[Avesther]

Are you seriously equating what is going on on your screen in CS to real life?

Do you also believe that loosing in Monopoly means you loose the shirt off your back?

Do you also believe that if you go to college in the game of Life, you actually get a degree?

Just because something mimics a real life situation doesn't mean its an actual life event.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Are you seriously equating what is going on on your screen in CS to real life?

Do you also believe that loosing in Monopoly means you loose the shirt off your back?

Do you also believe that if you go to college in the game of Life, you actually get a degree?

Just because something mimics a real life situation doesn't mean its an actual life event.

When you ask these questions, please keep the previous verses I posted in mind.

If lusting is just as bad as the physical sin and hate is equated to murder, how can you say that virtual killing can not be equated to the real thing?

I am trying to draw a parallel based off of the standards in the bible.

So, in this case, yes, I am equating virtual killing to real killing based off of what the bible teaches.

 

[Obscurity]

Papa Toad:

Killing is wrong; that spans multiple religions and cultures. It can not be questioned or side stepped.

First off, I think you made a great post and I agree with almost all that you have said. Given this discussion, this point might be relevant or it might send us off on a tangent, I suppose we will find out. I would like to submit that there is a distinction between killing and murder. I would like to state that all murder is wrong, yet all killing is not necessarily wrong. Killing someone in self defense of your family is not murder, and is not wrong. Killing someone in a just war is not murder, and is not wrong. The Bible teaches not to murder, not to not kill. I believe the distinction is important to make.

God's Peon:

To me, its a game. Plain and simple. For pure entertainment, enjoyment. CS or any game in which a goal is to eliminate the opposition is not killing.

Let's at least call it what it is and not try to rationalize. How do you eliminate the other team? Simple, you kill them. Is this murder? I don't think so.

Do you also believe that loosing in Monopoly means you loose the shirt off your back?
Do you also believe that if you go to college in the game of Life, you actually get a degree?
Just because something mimics a real life situation doesn't mean its an actual life event.

You've created a false analogy with this. The issue that the parents have with this game (from what I can tell) is the violence. Does playing violent games instill a violent mentality in our children? The parents of this young man believe the answer is yes, and so they do not want him to play. Surely you see the distinction between monopoly, life, and CS.

There's no need to get worked up, he wants to play the game. Let's be honest, I think their concerns are worth listening to. Think of all the school shootings. Think of the kids that mimic what they see in games in real life. There is a problem, and at times, games have had an impact on certain children. A hostile approach and attitude won't help anything.

 

[Obscurity]

Papa Toad:

Killing is wrong; that spans multiple religions and cultures. It can not be questioned or side stepped.

First off I want to say that I think you made a great post and I agree with most all you said. However, I think it might be relevant to the discussion for us to make the distinction between killing and murder. Murder is always wrong. Killing is not necessarily always wrong. There is a difference between the two. Surely we would not say that taking the life of an intruder in self defense of your family would be murder - though the intruder is killed. Certainly those that die in a just war are not murdered, though they are killed. One of my close friends was in a car accident and the passenger with him died. You could say that he killed the passenger as the wreck was his fault, but he did not murder him.

God's Peon:

To me, its a game. Plain and simple. For pure entertainment, enjoyment. CS or any game in which a goal is to eliminate the opposition is not killing. Killing involves taking a life and if you equate what you are doing on the computer monitor to actually taking a life, then may I suggest you seek professional help to deal with your inability to judge reality from fantasy. Maybe, you should turn yourself in at the local police station, you are after all, killing people right?

Ok, first off, Balrog does not have a problem playing this game, so there is no need to be so hostile and unwarrantly attack him. Secondly, just because something is a game, played for entertainment and enjoyment does not make it right. Surely guys go and pay prostitutes for entertainment and enjoyment, though I doubt you would say it's right. Next, Dark Virtue called you out on this, but I may as well do it too. How do you eliminate the opposition? Last time I checked you kill them. There's no good reason to deny this.

God's Peon:

Are you seriously equating what is going on on your screen in CS to real life?
Do you also believe that loosing in Monopoly means you loose the shirt off your back?
Do you also believe that if you go to college in the game of Life, you actually get a degree?
Just because something mimics a real life situation doesn't mean its an actual life event.

You've made a false analogy. From what I can tell, the parents' issue stems from the belief that playing a violent game in which you kill people will have a negative affect on their child. Perhaps making him more prone to violence in real life. And while I personally have no problem playing games such as CS, I don't think it's very fair to simply ignore the concerns of the parents. All we have to do is look at all the school shootings to recognize the influence of violence in the media and culture upon our children.

Personally, I don't think the core of the problem is the game. I don't think by removing the game from the child that it will have a major affect one way or the other. The problem is found moreso in the way we raise our children and what moral values are taught. So that being sad, I'm sorry your parents won't allow you to play.