The unforgivable sin?

[Durruck]

short on time, so I'm only picking three thingss to specifically respond to tonight:

Not according to the gospel of Judas (google it)

The Gospel of Judas is considered part of the Apocrypha. Therefore, it has little relevance in scriptural studies beyond historical value in backing up other parts of the texts. It is not considered part of God's Word.

I'll forgive, but I will deliver justice.

Are you not reading anything I've been saying? It is not our job to judge - God alone judges us. If we are not fit to judge (ie, evaluate wrongdoing), how can we sentence and deliver justice?

We don't know if they were in fact forgiven though.

Moses was able to intercede on behalf of the Jewish people; the precedence is set. In addition, Jesus becomes our speaker on our judgment day. If Jesus asks for them to be forgiven, the Father cannot deny him that.

 

[silverleaf]

Are you not reading anything I've been saying? It is not our job to judge - God alone judges us. If we are not fit to judge (ie, evaluate wrongdoing), how can we sentence and deliver justice?

I am reading and getting more stressed by the minute.
I was just relaying the only bucolically sound defense we puny humans who arn't able to forgive 100% of the time have.
And I'll repeat
What about the avenger of blood system? Because in writing those out, God probably already (ok he knows everything about us) knows if someone barges in and kills your parents you're not gona take it lying down. You CAN'T take it lying down, when it really happens I doubt you will be as cool to your beliefs. If so, hats off to you and I expect your mansion's size in heaven to be 100x mine.

While you seem to have pretty solid beliefs on that and your points are solid indeed (only adds to my anxiety but I know I won't be condemned alone), however, I for one don't believe in being cast aside to hell once we've fulfilled what the sunday school teachers, evangelists and the like tell me: 'believe in Jesus and though your sins are crimson, they shall be washed like snow'.
However I am beginning to be a bit unsure now after reading the above posts, yous in particular.

The Gospel of Judas is considered part of the Apocrypha. Therefore, it has little relevance in scriptural studies beyond historical value in backing up other parts of the texts. It is not considered part of God's Word

The Bible is the word of God. However it is not the ONLY word of God.
Also, wasn't it a series of gospels selected by some ancient roman dudes?
The gospels, the various prophecies and interpretations within them are the word of God but I really have doubts that the roman dudes included EVERYTHING. But then the book will probably weigh a ton.

So yeah maybe if nothing conclusive is drawn here or I can't sleep for the rest of my life I'll go ask someone IRL however I still feel much safer behind my screen. Have always been a screen person thats why I'm choosing to discuss here.

 

[Durruck]

Just because so-and-so would be willing to chase down the guy that barges into your house and kills the rest of your family...doesn't mean he's right.

If you're talking in the moment of self-defense, then yes. I would respond. I have weapons in my home and I'm not afraid to defend my home. I would hope that I would keep a level head and not take said weapon out into the street and chase someone down. I've never been in that situation so it's all speculation. But I didn't go and repay my boss in kind for his actions.

I'm not saying that I'm sinless. I'm saying that I don't want to justify my sins by man's standard.

As far as which books are considered canon and apocrypha, check out this wiki page. Yes, I understand that wikis are not considered accurate enough for scholarly works. However, the page has enough information packed into it to get a basic understanding of which groups said which books should be included in the Bible. The last major changes were at the Council of Trent and Luther's changes, both in the 1600s. So it's not just old Roman dudes.

The apocrypha is separated from canonical texts because it doesn't not line up with other texts. Basically, if there are conflicting pieces of information, the two texts were evaluated and whichever lines up with other texts was kept. Also excluded from the Bible are the texts that were written much later with no reason for such late entries. An example of this is the Life of Adam and Eve (also known as the Apocalypse of Moses) The reason it's considered apocrypha is because it was likely written by someone that was a contemporary of Paul. Why is that an issue? Because Paul wrote about the time that he currently lived - as did the other New Testament authors. If the text was Biblical, it would have likely been included with the Mosaic texts, not written centuries after Moses died. Moses was responsible for the canon stories about creation, early Jewish law, etc. There would be little benefit from such a late explanation of Adam and Eve.

To put it in perspective, it'd be like me writing something today about Jesus and it getting added to the Bible. The idea is laughable, at best.

TLDR: There wasn't just one group of old Roman people that decided what went into the Bible. The idea has been re-visited several times to make sure that other groups did it right.

 

[silverleaf]

Luther as in Martin Luther king? Sure I'll give him the respect he deserves for his various good works and great deeds in evangalism but the people of Vietnam will never forgive him for abandoning them.
Anyway won't dwell on that here, point is Bible = word of God but not ONLY word of God, I'm pretty sure God has many other places where he left his word. The apocrypha for instance. And the people who chose which were in and which were out may be wrong (MAY, nothing is certain) as it was not Jesus himself who selected. Then again I don't know much about this either.

Moses was responsible for the canon stories about creation, early Jewish law, etc. There would be little benefit from such a late explanation of Adam and Eve.

It was so long ago, I personally wonder if
But then that's the viewpoint of an evolutionist, I believe evolution is the way God created the world, what some old Russian bishop guy said (or was it not russia IDK). But then again I don't believe it 100%, nothing is certain.

Moses was responsible for the canon stories about creation, early Jewish law, etc. There would be little benefit from such a late explanation of Adam and Eve.

Once again, I don't really believe in people being condemned to hell and all, and am not sure if hell is a physical place or a reference to the state of a broken relationship with God, it could all be figurative like the part about apocalypse and all. Seems unlikely the final battle between good and evil should be confined to such a small place, I personally imagine something more eve-online style. Had a talk with the uniting church today (its Sunday here in Australia) but they said there are many views on this matter, but I personally believe that nothing can separate us from God once we believe in him, as per my Sunday school upbringing messages.

So yeah thats my answer to OP's post, but once again its just my opinion and those I consulted. However I got a feeling that OP isn't even checking this post anymore.

Thanks, at the very least, gained lots of understanding from this discussion.
Hi, I have been having a hard time with these verse

MATTHEW 12: 31-32 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come".

What exactly "blasphemy" against the holy spirit? Is it saying he is not real, because if it is well then im guilty of it. I havn't always been a christian and I even argued agenst it saying God(therefor the trinity) is not real.

So... am I not forgiven or saved?

Well now that I think about it, that means everyone who was of another religion, or athiest is not saved.

Anyways whar do you all think about it?


God Bless

Nazgul

Specifically answering OP's questions

Well now that I think about it, that means everyone who was of another religion, or athiest is not saved.

If anything, athiests should be more guilty than the other religions because the others are trying (but failing) to worship the real God while the athiests are directly opposed to any form of religion.
But its not in my place to judge.

What exactly "blasphemy" against the holy spirit? Is it saying he is not real, because if it is well then im guilty of it. I havn't always been a christian and I even argued agenst it saying God(therefor the trinity) is not real.

Repented? Good. If not you are still saved nonetheless. Just don't come whining to me about why all you have in heaven is a run down shack. Hey probably mine is worse as I've not exactly been very good. But I'm just happy to get there.

MATTHEW 12: 31-32 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come".

Now thats something I can't really get my head around either.

ONCE AGAIN THESE ARE MY OPINIONS AND I'M NOT AN ELDER so I'm not qualified to judge or give advice.

 

[Durruck]

Luther as in Martin Luther king?

Not quite. Martin Luther lived in the late-1400s in Europe. He wrote the 95 Thesis - a paper outlining the 95 things that the church should do to get back to how it was intended to exist. His works were a large part of the Protestant movement, and the Lutheran church is directly based on his works. He was persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church, but died of natural causes.

Martin Luther King lived in the early to mid-1900s in the United States of America, spoke about racial equality. He was eventually murdered by James Earl Ray.

 

[silverleaf]

Ah allright my history is hopeless, always get names mixed up.
However if it was written by the american I'd be a lot more skeptical as its a lot more recent. However the last edit was in 1400s. I'd still be a lot more confident if someone who actually witnessed the events, or at least among the first christians, wrote the list.

 

[Durruck]

I haven't read the majority of the 95 Thesis, but my understanding was that he compiled the list of things that the church was doing wrong based on early Christian writings (ie, the Gospels and Epistles)...compared to how the Roman Catholic Church was running things (much like the Pharisees and Saducees in Jesus' time).

Basically, he was part of the Reformation - an attempt to return the church to what Jesus said it should be.

 

[silverleaf]

He has some nerve, I mean if they did good, all is fair and well. However if they made a mistake and ommited some of the important stuff or added in some stuff the curses in revelations will come down on his head. Not sure if the curses in revelations refer to the entire bible or just revelations itself.

 

[Durruck]

Well, he must have struck a nerve, because a large number of western Christian denominations are based out of Luther's (et al) work.

One example of a change was the Roman Catholic belief about indulgence and absolution. From Wiki:

The background to Luther's Ninety-Five Theses centers on agreements within the Catholic Church regarding baptism and absolution. Significantly, the Theses offer a view on the validity of indulgences (remissions of temporal punishment due for sins which have already been forgiven). They also view with great cynicism the practice of indulgences being sold, and thus the penance for sin representing a financial transaction rather than genuine contrition. Luther's theses argued that the sale of indulgences was a gross violation of the original intention of confession and penance, and that Christians were being falsely told that they could find absolution through the purchase of indulgences.

Essentially, Roman Catholics were taught that you could pay your way out of judgment as a fund raiser. Luther felt there was no scriptural basis for this (and he was right) so he fought against the church administrators that were defrauding their own congregations.

 

[RyanB]

Wow, haven't been back to this thread for a few days, lots going on. Just finished reading through all of that...but I guess the main thing that sticks out to me is..

Why do you (Silverleaf) feel that someone "can't" forgive? Or "can't" live up to God's expectations? Certainly none of us our perfect on our own merit, but it's not because we can't live without sin, it's because we choose not to. I know that might sound like a minor distinction...but like they say with alcholism, admitting you have a problem is the first step. And of course, saying you "can't" do something is just a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That said, I just want to make sure I say that I'm not pointing this out to put you down or anything...we all fall short in many ways. I just want to encourage you and let you know we're here to help. Two are better than one.

 

[Phrankdatank]

Yes if someone is breaking into your house you have the right to self defense.

However you don't go looking for them and try to achieve vigilante justice. The kinsman avenger system is over. Yes today's justice system is messed up but God will set everything right on that great Judgment Day.

The fact of the matter is that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God(Romans 3:23). We ALL have angered and offended God far greater than we can imagine. Our debt to God is like the 10,000 talents in Matthew 18:23-35. We ALL, without exception, deserve to burn in Hell for all eternity.

And yes, Hell is a literal place where people burn in conscious agony for all eternity. There is NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT for those who go to Hell(Revelation 14:11).

God could have left us as we were without sending Jesus Christ and allowed us all to go to Hell and He would have been perfectly justified in doing so.

However, due to His great mercy and love for us, He sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross to save those who would turn from their sins and submit to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Because of God's great mercy towards us, we are required to extend that mercy towards others. In fact if we don't extend mercy towards others after receiving God's grace and forgiveness, God will in fact revoke that forgiveness and reinstate our sin debt(Matthew 18:34), as symbolized by the Master having the unforgiving servant thrown into prison until he paid all that he owed(symbolizing God sending previously forgiven Christians to Hell if they die in an unforgiving state).

In fact, every time you go to prayer, which should be often, you should examine yourself to see if you have any grudges or any matter of ought or anger towards someone(Mark 11:25-26) and if so, you are to forgive them. In fact, if you can immediately after the wrong ask God for strength to forgive them.

If you supply the willingness to forgive, God will supply the grace and everything else needed.