The Bible

[Gandhi]

Quote[/b] ]Now the Lord God had formed (past tense, he formed them some time in the past, if it were a current creation the text would read "the Lord God formed" as we read in verse 7) out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them.

Ok off topic, isn't alot of genisis past tense. And since it has been translated over and over again are u sure "had" is supposed to be there.
I'm with dark the more I study and learn the bible, the more i find that it doesn't make sense sometimes.
Freethinker is an interesting way of putting it, I think that would describe me too. I was rased christian, and at one time when I was a kid wanted to be a priest. But the more I read, the more questions I have. And the less I trust the bible as being right.
I probobly can't argue both sides as well as dark, but give me time. Need alittle more research.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]Ok off topic, isn't alot of genisis past tense. And since it has been translated over and over again are u sure "had" is supposed to be there

Yes. I presume the crux of your arguement is in that how can we be sure that a error did not enter, beside we are all human and errors happen today, even with all our great technology.

Well, with copying Hebrew, it is impossible to place a past tense verb into their writting by mistake. Verbs in Hebrew get their tense by context, not by adding a "had" into it the writtings.

 

[PapaToad]

These discrepancies and so called “error” DV has found, do not take anything away from the message of the bible. The challenge DV finds with its validity seems so trivial. It seems that you went from Believing in God (And the Bible) to trying to disprove him (And his Word). I understand this so clearly  because I myself was in the same boat. I myself at 14 was called to preach and serve the lord and went so far right that I spent 18 years running from God. But as I said earlier. Father God spoke to my heart.

I have studied science and creation

Zen, Buddhism and Taoism

Witchcraft, demonology and the occult

All at great length

I was a humanist for the longest time, because I believed Christians were two faced hypocrites who were about nothing but control, and the bible I studied was riddled with errors and misconceptions.

But it was truly me who was not studying far enough. Since I have started my masters of Biblical Studies. I have found a few things that I can not explain. But nothing that disproves Gods reality, or invalidates the bible.

We were given the word as a guide, we were told to test spirits against what the word says. Jesus’ awesome message is there, the message of salvation. Your so called discrepancies do nothing to invalidate or disprove the message of the great commission or the greatest commandment.

The trap that God owes us an explanation or a detailed history of his actions is wrong. I do not need to know how God created the universe, or in what order. That is legalism. I need to know God Created it. I do not need to know that Moses wrote the books of what ever. I need to know Moses answered Gods calling, lead his people, was a friend of God, and the meekest man ever to live. I do to need to know when Christ was born; I need to know His message.

What’s the Advance message, There is not one

SALVATION AND LOVE

Doesn’t get easier or harder than that

It seems to me some are caught in the details and missing the bigger picture of love and forgiveness. It’s KISS (keep it simple silly)

Either you trust in God or you don’t, There is no middle ground.

Either your Living As a new testament Christian or your not

I am not opting for an easy out.
Its not my job to prove it to you, God will work on a persons heart it His time.
I am required only to inform you what the Lord put in my heart as truth

I do not lean on my own understanding

But I know what I seen
I know what I’ve felt
I have Jesus in my heart
I am about my Fathers business

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]These discrepancies and so called “error” DV has found, do not take anything away from the message of the bible. The challenge DV finds with its validity seems so trivial.

I don't understand why you feel that validating the ONLY body of work that one bases their Faith on is trivial.

I would rather understand why those discrepencies are there than to turn a blind eye to it and accept the general whole.

Quote[/b] ]It seems that you went from Believing in God (And the Bible) to trying to disprove him (And his Word).

That's not quite true. I am not trying to disprove the Bible, quite the opposite, I am trying to PROVE it.

Quote[/b] ]I was a humanist for the longest time, because I believed Christians were two faced hypocrites who were about nothing but control, and the bible I studied was riddled with errors and misconceptions.

Obviously you got past that. I would love to hear how you learned to embrace a book that is riddled with errors and misconceptions. They obviously didn't disappear, so how do you deal with them?

Quote[/b] ]But it was truly me who was not studying far enough. Since I have started my masters of Biblical Studies. I have found a few things that I can not explain. But nothing that disproves Gods reality, or invalidates the bible.

Nothing can disprove God's reality. On the flipside, nothing can prove God's reality either. What do you do when you find something that you can't understand? I understand that the last thing you would want to do is to invalidate the Bible, but have you honestly and truthfully VALIDATED it? Or have you simply accepted it without asking too many questions?

Quote[/b] ]We were given the word as a guide, we were told to test spirits against what the word says. Jesus’ awesome message is there, the message of salvation. Your so called discrepancies do nothing to invalidate or disprove the message of the great commission or the greatest commandment.

Am I not testing what the Word says? More than that, I am testing the Word. Yes, there is a message there, but look at what the message is in. Look at it's transmission. Look at the Bible. I study these discrepencies to learn more about the Bible. I for one am not willing to accept this work without question. I'd like to know its origins, where it came from, how it came into being, whose hands were instrumental in its design. Why is that a bad thing? Because you might learn something you don't want to? That won't make it any less truthful now will it?

Quote[/b] ]The trap that God owes us an explanation or a detailed history of his actions is wrong. I do not need to know how God created the universe, or in what order. That is legalism. I need to know God Created it.

You may not feel that God owes you an explanation, but what is wrong with trying to understand more about God and who this being truly is? All we have to go on is the Bible, that's ALL we have, so why not scrutinize it? If God truly created the universe then all the study that one can do will prove that. The fear is in proving something that you don't want to believe in or in finding something that ruins your preconceived notions. Don't fear Truth.

Quote[/b] ]I do not need to know that Moses wrote the books of what ever. I need to know Moses answered Gods calling, lead his people, was a friend of God, and the meekest man ever to live. I do to need to know when Christ was born; I need to know His message.

If I'm going to base my life, and afterlife, on a book, I'd like to know who wrote it. If someone tells me to read this book on Ethics written by Mother Theresa, I'm going to be a little disturbed to find out it was really written by Larry Flint, or edited by Charles Manson. Open your Bible. Chances are it says the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses. Are you going to blindly accept that or are you going to prove it to yourself? How much stronger will your Faith be when you prove it to be so? But what happens if you find that it isn't so? Yes, it's easier to turn a blind eye and not even bother to question it. But how very sad for you if you do so. You're living in fear of the truth.

Quote[/b] ]It seems to me some are caught in the details and missing the bigger picture of love and forgiveness. It’s KISS (keep it simple silly)

Those silly little details are what help build a strong foundation of your Faith. If you are building a house, you don't giggle and dismiss the pouring of concrete for the foundation. It's the most important part! Even Christ talks about building on a solid foundation. I refuse to squint my way through life and see only the big picture. It's easier not to question and just accept things the way they are. Again, here's the F word...FEAR. If you don't ask questions then you won't find things that you are afraid to face.

Quote[/b] ]Either you trust in God or you don’t, There is no middle ground.

Guess what? I agree with you. But it is much easier to say than to do. Trust is an "assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something". In order to have trust in an unprovable being, you need to have Faith. In order to have Faith in God you have to understand God. In order to understand God you have to believe in the Bible. You can't believe in the Bible unless you truly study it. That is what I am doing, studying the Bible. Every facet of it. Some of it is good, some of it is bad, but in the end, it is what it is.

Quote[/b] ]Either your Living As a new testament Christian or your not

I am not living as a New Testament Christian. Does that make me a bad person? Does that mean I am devoid of morality?

Quote[/b] ]I am not opting for an easy out.

Ah, but you HAVE opted for an easy out. It's easier not to question your beliefs. You've said yourself that you prefer to look at the big picture instead of truly investigating the crumbled foundation under your feet

Quote[/b] ]Its not my job to prove it to you, God will work on a persons heart it His time.

Will he work on my heart like he did Pharoh's? How many times did God harden his heart when Moses beseeched the release of his people?

Quote[/b] ]I am required only to inform you what the Lord put in my heart as truth

What TRUTH is in your heart? Can you have Truth without anything to back it up? Isn't the Bible supposed to back you up? Again, what is the problem with investigating the Bible?

Quote[/b] ]I do not lean on my own understanding

You have to have SOME form of undestanding don't you? Some how, some where you chose to believe in God and the Bible. How much questioning did you do to get yourself to that point? At what point do you stop questioning? Do you stop?

I've chosen not to stop. I've chosen to continue questioning.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Aug. 19 2004,5:13)]Yes.  I presume the crux of your arguement is in that how can we be sure that a error did not enter, beside we are all human and errors happen today, even with all our great technology.

Well, with copying Hebrew, it is impossible to place a past tense verb into their writting by mistake.  Verbs in Hebrew get their tense by context, not by adding a "had" into it the writtings.

So you do think it's POSSIBLE that errors are in the Bible?

 

[PapaToad]

I don't understand why you feel that validating the ONLY body of work that one bases their Faith on is trivial.

(Christ never asked me to validate the Bible.)

I would rather understand why those discrepancies are there than to turn a blind eye to it and accept the general whole.

(That is good; God did not call me to do that. Is that the burden he placed in your heart? Do the mistranslations you find, change the very meaning of Christ’s teachings? No they don’t, there for I do not understand what you are truly searching for my friend? UI am not turning a blind eye to it, I wait for the Lord to show me through the word of knowledge or wisdom. Christ never called us to understand (There is not wrong with understanding, and I myself despise lemmings) But Christ called us to have faith and believe.)

That's not quite true.  I am not trying to disprove the Bible, quite the opposite; I am trying to PROVE it.

(Where did God command you to prove it? To Questions his reality?)

Obviously you got past that.  I would love to hear how you learned to embrace a book that is riddled with errors and misconceptions.  They obviously didn't disappear, so how do you deal with them?

(I studied again. I realized on day discussing the KJV that God would not allow His word to be corrupted; He had a specific message for us! And no matter what translation or version it stands. Christ is our salvation and gave us the great commission and Greatest of all commandments. God told me Stop walking and trying to prove I exist, Just believe and have faith in me. I did it very hard, I live like you and find myself wasting time trying to prove something that I already know is real.)

Nothing can disprove God's reality.  On the flipside, nothing can prove God's reality either.  What do you do when you find something that you can't understand?  I understand that the last thing you would want to do is to invalidate the Bible, but have you honestly and truthfully VALIDATED it?  Or have you simply accepted it without asking too many questions?

(THIS is not true, if you have something that truly proves that Christ is not the son off God, That the Great commission is a lie and the greatest commandment is a fallacy. Please tell me and every other Christian on this board. By all means I do not want to be wasting my time.)
(I have validated it. I do research it, I read and compare where is it  lying or misguide all you keep spouting it two reference  that are not there, not meeting the (I do not know how many the are) Where are least mistranslations that are detrimental to Christianity. Please tell us.) ( I pray and study and wait on the Lord)

Am I not testing what the Word says?  More than that, I am testing the Word.  Yes, there is a message there, but look at what the message is in.  Look at it's transmission.  Look at the Bible.  I study these discrepancies to learn more about the Bible.  I for one am not willing to accept this work without question.  I'd like to know its origins, where it came from, how it came into being, whose hands were instrumental in its design.  Why is that a bad thing?  Because you might learn something you don't want to?  That won't make it any less truthful now will it?

(No it will not make it any less truthful, Gods hand was instrumental in it.)

You may not feel that God owes you an explanation, but what is wrong with trying to understand more about God and who this being truly is?  All we have to go on is the Bible, that's ALL we have, so why not scrutinize it?  If God truly created the universe then all the study that one can do will prove that.  The fear is in proving something that you don't want to believe in or in finding something that ruins your preconceived notions.  Don't fear Truth.

(Pal, I agree, where does it disprove GOD, or Christ. How is the bible fallible? God Created the Universe, is this in question?)

If I'm going to base my life, and afterlife, on a book, I'd like to know who wrote it.  If someone tells me to read this book on Ethics written by Mother Theresa, I'm going to be a little disturbed to find out it was really written by Larry Flint, or edited by Charles Manson. Open your Bible.  Chances are it says the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses.  Are you going to blindly accept that or are you going to prove it to yourself?  How much stronger will your Faith be when you prove it to be so?  But what happens if you find that it isn't so?  Yes, it's easier to turn a blind eye and not even bother to question it.  But how very sad for you if you do so.  You're living in fear of the truth.

(My bible does not say the 1st five books were written by Moses, I have seen them refered to as the books of mosses.)(NIV) and we have come along way from control to relationship with Christ. So I know the books were inspired by God. We come to the same place I do not fear the truth, I do not choose to call God fallible. And stand by Faith God will make it clear.)

Those silly little details are what help build a strong foundation of your Faith.  If you are building a house, you don't giggle and dismiss the pouring of concrete for the foundation.  It's the most important part!  Even Christ talks about building on a solid foundation.  I refuse to squint my way through life and see only the big picture.  It's easier not to question and just accept things the way they are.  Again, here's the F word...FEAR.  If you don't ask questions then you won't find things that you are afraid to face.

(Please tell me Where Christ said “get the silly details and have faith in me?) I have no fear , I stand on the bible and my Faith in Christ)

Guess what?  I agree with you.  But it is much easier to say than to do.  Trust is an "assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something".  In order to have trust in an improvable being, you need to have Faith.  In order to have Faith in God you have to understand God.  In order to understand God you have to believe in the Bible.  You can't believe in the Bible unless you truly study it.  That is what I am doing, studying the Bible.  Every facet of it.  Some of it is good, some of it is bad, but in the end, it is what it is.

(trust in God comes not from understanding to, but for faith, bottom line. But Christ pushed faith. We walk my faith, not by sight)

I am not living as a New Testament Christian.  Does that make me a bad person?  Does that mean I am devoid of morality?

(nope, I like you, I get the feeling you are a good person, Let me rephrase that. GOD tells me you are a good person, even as I write this. You are not a follower of Christ atm, But God has a work in you*Smile* I look forward to seeing it blossom  )


Ah, but you HAVE opted for an easy out.  It's easier not to question your beliefs.  You've said yourself that you prefer to look at the big picture instead of truly investigating the crumbled foundation under your feet

(This my friend are wrongs a soup sandwich. I question God to no end, and he always ends up proving me silly. I haven been a lot of things, but good has always made me a questioner. My foundation is solid and unshakeable. I walk what I talk. I have faith. This is what you fail to understand. You will not understand it until you get it.)

Will he work on my heart like he did Pharoh's?  How many times did God harden his heart when Moses beseeched the release of his people?

(Yes, God had a plan for Pharaoh, God has a plan for you, do I know it no, But It is there, I feel it, God shown me that you will do something. I do not know what it is, But He loves you and has a plan for you.)

What TRUTH is in your heart?  Can you have Truth without anything to back it up?  Isn't the Bible supposed to back you up?  Again, what is the problem with investigating the Bible?

(Nothing, I did not say the was anything wrong with it, and the bible backs up everything I am say, how doesn’t it, LOL)
You have to have SOME form of understanding don't you?  Some how, some where you chose to believe in God and the Bible.  How much questioning did you do to get yourself to that point?  At what point do you stop questioning?  Do you stop?  

( A lot, I remember crying on the couch, having lost everything, I had started studying again, and saw so many misconceptions I had, and here it was making sense and it was all true. I was the angry confused one. Somehow I turned it all around.

God changed me, changed my heart, took my anger and self pity. I have never stop questioning, I ACCEPTED Gods plan for my life, and gave it to GOD. And he has not let me down yet. How could I not believe?)

I've chosen not to stop.  I've chosen to continue questioning.

( Either have I , I just chose to live Gods way)

 

[PapaToad]

I apoliogize for such horrible spelling and sentance structure, LOL

 

[PapaToad]

Side bar

You have to have SOME form of understanding don't you? Some how, some where you chose to believe in God and the Bible. How much questioning did you do to get yourself to that point? At what point do you stop questioning? Do you stop?

( A lot, I remember crying on the couch, having lost everything, I had started studying again, and saw so many misconceptions I had, and here it was making sense and it was all true. I was the angry confused one. Somehow I turned it all around.)

This is a bad sentance.
It should be I was in the process of giving it all to God, I remember being on the couch cry, infact because I was heavy of heart and convicted by the Holy Spoirit adn sorry for what I had put God thru. When He had shown me the truth when I was so young. Some how I had distorted the word. )

does sthat makes sense?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Shees, this is getting long

Quote[/b] ]I don't understand why you feel that validating the ONLY body of work that one bases their Faith on is trivial.

(Christ never asked me to validate the Bible.)

Christ never said ANYTHING about the Bible did he? The Bible wouldn't come into existence until much much later. If I'm going to be handed a book and told to base my life on it, I'd like to know the Book is accurate and authentic.

Quote[/b] ]I would rather understand why those discrepancies are there than to turn a blind eye to it and accept the general whole.

(That is good; God did not call me to do that. Is that the burden he placed in your heart? Do the mistranslations you find, change the very meaning of Christ’s teachings? No they don’t, there for I do not understand what you are truly searching for my friend? UI am not turning a blind eye to it, I wait for the Lord to show me through the word of knowledge or wisdom. Christ never called us to understand (There is not wrong with understanding, and I myself despise lemmings) But Christ called us to have faith and believe.)

Psalm 119:34
Give me understanding, and I will keep your law and obey it with all my heart.

Psalm 119:73
Your hands made me and formed me; give me understanding to learn your commands.

Proverbs 4:1
Listen, my sons, to a father's instruction; pay attention and gain understanding.

Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, [ 4:7 Or [ Whatever else you get ] ] get understanding.

Quote[/b] ]That's not quite true. I am not trying to disprove the Bible, quite the opposite; I am trying to PROVE it.

(Where did God command you to prove it? To Questions his reality?)

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

How is one to BELIEVE in God, to place FAITH in him if one doesn't prove it to himself?

Quote[/b] ]Obviously you got past that. I would love to hear how you learned to embrace a book that is riddled with errors and misconceptions. They obviously didn't disappear, so how do you deal with them?

(I studied again. I realized on day discussing the KJV that God would not allow His word to be corrupted; He had a specific message for us! And no matter what translation or version it stands. Christ is our salvation and gave us the great commission and Greatest of all commandments. God told me Stop walking and trying to prove I exist, Just believe and have faith in me. I did it very hard, I live like you and find myself wasting time trying to prove something that I already know is real.)

I find myself learning more the more I study. It's not a waste of time or effort if I'm learning and growing in the process.

Quote[/b] ]Nothing can disprove God's reality. On the flipside, nothing can prove God's reality either. What do you do when you find something that you can't understand? I understand that the last thing you would want to do is to invalidate the Bible, but have you honestly and truthfully VALIDATED it? Or have you simply accepted it without asking too many questions?

(THIS is not true, if you have something that truly proves that Christ is not the son off God, That the Great commission is a lie and the greatest commandment is a fallacy. Please tell me and every other Christian on this board. By all means I do not want to be wasting my time.)

That is what I am trying to do. But some people don't want to see. There is too much fear. Who likes being proven wrong after all? But where are you going to start? How about with the only physical piece of evidence there is...the Bible.

Quote[/b] ](I have validated it. I do research it, I read and compare where is it lying or misguide all you keep spouting it two reference that are not there, not meeting the (I do not know how many the are) Where are least mistranslations that are detrimental to Christianity. Please tell us.) ( I pray and study and wait on the Lord)

There are many many mistranslations and inconsistencies in the Bible. Are you truly telling me that with all your study that you haven't found ONE mistranslation or ONE inconsistency in the Bible? If you'd like to start a new thread on this, I'd be more than happy to oblige, but our space within this one is limited. Please, honestly answer if you haven't found ONE single error in the Bible.

Quote[/b] ]Am I not testing what the Word says? More than that, I am testing the Word. Yes, there is a message there, but look at what the message is in. Look at it's transmission. Look at the Bible. I study these discrepancies to learn more about the Bible. I for one am not willing to accept this work without question. I'd like to know its origins, where it came from, how it came into being, whose hands were instrumental in its design. Why is that a bad thing? Because you might learn something you don't want to? That won't make it any less truthful now will it?

(No it will not make it any less truthful, Gods hand was instrumental in it.)

AHHH...I never conceded that his hand wasn't instrumental, but that isn't the point is it? If we assume that God gave man a single, unadulterated work, can you honestly tell me that work exists pure and unchanged to this day?

Quote[/b] ]You may not feel that God owes you an explanation, but what is wrong with trying to understand more about God and who this being truly is? All we have to go on is the Bible, that's ALL we have, so why not scrutinize it? If God truly created the universe then all the study that one can do will prove that. The fear is in proving something that you don't want to believe in or in finding something that ruins your preconceived notions. Don't fear Truth.

(Pal, I agree, where does it disprove GOD, or Christ. How is the bible fallible? God Created the Universe, is this in question?)

You're putting the cart before the horse. Start at the beginning. If the Bible is the infallible word of God and it is shown to be indeed, fallible, then it casts a shadow on the rest.

Quote[/b] ]If I'm going to base my life, and afterlife, on a book, I'd like to know who wrote it. If someone tells me to read this book on Ethics written by Mother Theresa, I'm going to be a little disturbed to find out it was really written by Larry Flint, or edited by Charles Manson. Open your Bible. Chances are it says the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses. Are you going to blindly accept that or are you going to prove it to yourself? How much stronger will your Faith be when you prove it to be so? But what happens if you find that it isn't so? Yes, it's easier to turn a blind eye and not even bother to question it. But how very sad for you if you do so. You're living in fear of the truth.

(My bible does not say the 1st five books were written by Moses, I have seen them refered to as the books of mosses.)(NIV) and we have come along way from control to relationship with Christ. So I know the books were inspired by God. We come to the same place I do not fear the truth, I do not choose to call God fallible. And stand by Faith God will make it clear.)

The KJV and the NKJV do state this, as well as others. My point is that people honestly believed that the Pentateuch was written by Moses, but over time that was proven inaccurate, which is why it is no longer in newer versions of the Bible. If that point was incorrect, what other notions commonly held about the Bible are incorrect as well?

Quote[/b] ]Those silly little details are what help build a strong foundation of your Faith. If you are building a house, you don't giggle and dismiss the pouring of concrete for the foundation. It's the most important part! Even Christ talks about building on a solid foundation. I refuse to squint my way through life and see only the big picture. It's easier not to question and just accept things the way they are. Again, here's the F word...FEAR. If you don't ask questions then you won't find things that you are afraid to face.

(Please tell me Where Christ said “get the silly details and have faith in me?) I have no fear , I stand on the bible and my Faith in Christ)

Hey, even Christ's disciples had doubt. Before I can place my faith in Christ, I need to be sure the Bible is what it says it is.

Quote[/b] ]Guess what? I agree with you. But it is much easier to say than to do. Trust is an "assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something". In order to have trust in an improvable being, you need to have Faith. In order to have Faith in God you have to understand God. In order to understand God you have to believe in the Bible. You can't believe in the Bible unless you truly study it. That is what I am doing, studying the Bible. Every facet of it. Some of it is good, some of it is bad, but in the end, it is what it is.

(trust in God comes not from understanding to, but for faith, bottom line. But Christ pushed faith. We walk my faith, not by sight)

ALL religions push faith, because it is impossible to prove. As I've said, before you can believe what's IN the Bible, you have to believe IN the Bible.

Quote[/b] ]I am not living as a New Testament Christian. Does that make me a bad person? Does that mean I am devoid of morality?

(nope, I like you, I get the feeling you are a good person, Let me rephrase that. GOD tells me you are a good person, even as I write this. You are not a follower of Christ atm, But God has a work in you*Smile* I look forward to seeing it blossom  )

I WAS a follower of Christ, but am no longer. I think that puts me in a very bad position Biblically speaking.

Quote[/b] ]Ah, but you HAVE opted for an easy out. It's easier not to question your beliefs. You've said yourself that you prefer to look at the big picture instead of truly investigating the crumbled foundation under your feet

(This my friend are wrongs a soup sandwich. I question God to no end, and he always ends up proving me silly. I haven been a lot of things, but good has always made me a questioner. My foundation is solid and unshakeable. I walk what I talk. I have faith. This is what you fail to understand. You will not understand it until you get it.)

I also question God to no end, but I always end up finding him silly. And for your understanding, I HAVE had Faith. Don't kid yourself, it IS shakeable. As solid as any belief is, there is nothing stronger than Truth.

Quote[/b] ]Will he work on my heart like he did Pharoh's? How many times did God harden his heart when Moses beseeched the release of his people?

(Yes, God had a plan for Pharaoh, God has a plan for you, do I know it no, But It is there, I feel it, God shown me that you will do something. I do not know what it is, But He loves you and has a plan for you.)

God loved Pharaoh too didn't he? Things didn't work out well for him.

Quote[/b] ]What TRUTH is in your heart? Can you have Truth without anything to back it up? Isn't the Bible supposed to back you up? Again, what is the problem with investigating the Bible?

(Nothing, I did not say the was anything wrong with it, and the bible backs up everything I am say, how doesn’t it, LOL)

The Bible may not back up everything you think it does.

Quote[/b] ]You have to have SOME form of understanding don't you? Some how, some where you chose to believe in God and the Bible. How much questioning did you do to get yourself to that point? At what point do you stop questioning? Do you stop?

( A lot, I remember crying on the couch, having lost everything, I had started studying again, and saw so many misconceptions I had, and here it was making sense and it was all true. I was the angry confused one. Somehow I turned it all around.

God changed me, changed my heart, took my anger and self pity. I have never stop questioning, I ACCEPTED Gods plan for my life, and gave it to GOD. And he has not let me down yet. How could I not believe?)

Strange how two people can study the same book and wind up with totally opposite points of view.

Quote[/b] ]I've chosen not to stop. I've chosen to continue questioning.

( Either have I , I just chose to live Gods way)

I suppose I live my own way, I guess we simply found different answers.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Aug. 20 2004,1:07)]Side bar

You have to have SOME form of understanding don't you?  Some how, some where you chose to believe in God and the Bible.  How much questioning did you do to get yourself to that point?  At what point do you stop questioning?  Do you stop?  

( A lot, I remember crying on the couch, having lost everything, I had started studying again, and saw so many misconceptions I had, and here it was making sense and it was all true. I was the angry confused one. Somehow I turned it all around.)

This is a bad sentance.
It should be I was in the process of giving it all to God, I remember being on the couch cry, infact because I was heavy of heart and convicted by the Holy Spoirit adn sorry for what I had put God thru. When He had shown me the truth when I was so young. Some how I had distorted the word. )

does sthat makes sense?

I'm not grading you on grammar

If I was, you'd get an F

LOL

Kidding, kidding

 

[Arkanjel]

The one thing I can see from all of these back and forths is this. DV you have a LOT of HEAD knowledge of Christ. However do you have the HEART knowledge to go along with it? To question God on end about every little thing that comes into your life is wasting YOUR time and GOD's time. Yes I said GOD's time. He has a much greater plan for you than you have for yourself. The one thing you have to do is make the leap of faith and put it all in his hands! EX: Does a fish question why we change his water or perhaps move him to a new home? Perhaps he may? But the bottom line is the person doing the moving and shaking is the one with the plan in mind and that plan is what is best for the fish. We can question till were blue in the face about small things. Its called analysis paralysis. We get stuck worrying about the insignificant things when we could be moving on and collecting on God's promises. I assure you that if you have a question that burns in your heart constantly God will give you an answer to it, but we cant stop moving and just wait. There is a world full of lost people out there who dont know half of what you know and are doomed to an eternity of separation from God. Move on with you life and wait for God to give you the answers you seek in HIS time, not yours. If it is not for you to know, then so be it, maybe it is for the better?

In Christ,
Gabriel

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 20 2004,10:44)]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Aug. 19 2004,5:13)]Yes. I presume the crux of your arguement is in that how can we be sure that a error did not enter, beside we are all human and errors happen today, even with all our great technology.

Well, with copying Hebrew, it is impossible to place a past tense verb into their writting by mistake. Verbs in Hebrew get their tense by context, not by adding a "had" into it the writtings.

So you do think it's POSSIBLE that errors are in the Bible?

No, I was making a presumption as to the direction of his arguement. Because we make specific types of errors today doesn't mean those types of error occoured in the past.

And the Hebrew language seems to be spedifically designed to negate a good chunk of errors. The tense of verbs in Hebrew is derived out from the context of the text it is in. Unlike the english language, where the verb is modified to signify tense. No modifier could have been added into the text to make that passage past tense versus present tense or future tense.

To answer his question, am I sure the "had" is supposed to be there, yes.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Arkanjel @ Aug. 20 2004,3:29)]The one thing I can see from all of these back and forths is this. DV you have a LOT of HEAD knowledge of Christ. However do you have the HEART knowledge to go along with it? To question God on end about every little thing that comes into your life is wasting YOUR time and GOD's time. Yes I said GOD's time. He has a much greater plan for you than you have for yourself. The one thing you have to do is make the leap of faith and put it all in his hands! EX: Does a fish question why we change his water or perhaps move him to a new home? Perhaps he may? But the bottom line is the person doing the moving and shaking is the one with the plan in mind and that plan is what is best for the fish. We can question till were blue in the face about small things. Its called analysis paralysis. We get stuck worrying about the insignificant things when we could be moving on and collecting on God's promises. I assure you that if you have a question that burns in your heart constantly God will give you an answer to it, but we cant stop moving and just wait. There is a world full of lost people out there who dont know half of what you know and are doomed to an eternity of separation from God. Move on with you life and wait for God to give you the answers you seek in HIS time, not yours. If it is not for you to know, then so be it, maybe it is for the better?

In Christ,
Gabriel

Been there, done that.

My heart will never be in it again. Sometimes the head wins out.

Personally I don't think the details should be avoided. If you're going to believe in something, you should believe in it 100%. I'm tired of the "shield of Faith" argument. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. It's a Christian's last out. If they can't answer a question it always comes down to Faith. I think there should be more to it.

Do you think a Christian is stronger in their Faith if they actually understands the hows and whys of what's in the Bible? I do. I just take it a step further. And that's what most religious people hate, looking at the details. Not just in Christianity, but in all religions. No religion is rock solid and without questions. If there were, everyone would flock to it.

I'm not concerned with the destination, I'm enjoying the journey.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Aug. 20 2004,3:43)]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 20 2004,10:44)]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Aug. 19 2004,5:13)]Yes.  I presume the crux of your arguement is in that how can we be sure that a error did not enter, beside we are all human and errors happen today, even with all our great technology.

Well, with copying Hebrew, it is impossible to place a past tense verb into their writting by mistake.  Verbs in Hebrew get their tense by context, not by adding a "had" into it the writtings.

So you do think it's POSSIBLE that errors are in the Bible?

No, I was making a presumption as to the direction of his arguement.  Because we make specific types of errors today doesn't mean those types of error occoured in the past.

And the Hebrew language seems to be spedifically designed to negate a good chunk of errors.  The tense of verbs in Hebrew is derived out from the context of the text it is in.  Unlike the english language, where the verb is modified to signify tense.  No modifier could have been added into the text to make that passage past tense versus present tense or future tense.

To answer his question, am I sure the "had" is supposed to be there, yes.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just interested in knowing if you think the Bible is a perfect manuscript or if it could possibly contain errors. Errors meaning mistranslations or inconsistencies, etc.

 

[Arkanjel]

Ok time to show us your voluminous evidence of all the inconsistencies. Its all you talk about so please present your case. Its not really about what we think here now is it. It really boils down to your want to disprove the infallible word of God. I understand your want to know the reasons behind everything. We are children to God, young and old. One thing a child always asks is 'why?' In the end does it really matter? Once you make it to the other side it will all be answered for you anyways. You are not seeing the forest because of all the trees. There are some things God doesnt want us to know, and we just have to live with it, the same thing you tell a 3 yr old who constantly questions 'why?' You really have gotten way to hung up on the details. If you want to truely enjoy the journey, then sit back and let God take you down the path. Does it matter what the road is made of? Not really, all that matters is that it is smooth and paved for your journey. God will steer you around the pot-holes, and if he doesnt then perhaps there was something to be learned from going through the pot-hole. Take his chastisement as a sign that he really truely loves you, and is trying to make you a better person. Dont be a victim, be the victor.

In Christ,
Gabriel

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Ok time to show us your voluminous evidence of all the inconsistencies. Its all you talk about so please present your case. [/quot]

I'll post a few after this post.

Its not really about what we think here now is it. It really boils down to your want to disprove the infallible word of God.

Why don't you believe that what I am trying to do is PROVE the Bible, not DISprove it? That is what started this whole journey for me, trying to PROVE the veracity and historicity of the Bible. When I find something wrong with it, I set that aside and work on that portion. If I was wrong then that is one more bit of evidence for the Bible. Because I can see both sides equally well I am more than willing to be proven wrong in any area. Hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm not perfect and I don't profess to know everything. The problem I have is when I ask questions to Christians and they are so fearful of having any of their notions proven wrong they throw up the shield of Faith and refuse to budge on any ground. Nothing wrong with Faith, but I prefer mine to be based on a solid foundation.

Quote[/b] ]I understand your want to know the reasons behind everything. We are children to God, young and old. One thing a child always asks is 'why?' In the end does it really matter?

Are you a parent? What do you do when your child asks you "why Daddy"? Do you pat that child on its head and say, "Silly child, don't worry about it". Or do you answer that child so that he can grow and learn?

Quote[/b] ]Once you make it to the other side it will all be answered for you anyways.

LOL, a lot of good that will do me while I'm roasting on a spit in hell.

Quote[/b] ]You are not seeing the forest because of all the trees.

And I charge that you are doing the opposite. You are not seeing the trees for the forest. That big thing you call a forest is made up of trees. Those trees are made up of bark, roots, leaves, twigs. Each tree has a biocycle, life to death. Trees are in a constant flux of life, saplings to dead trees. Those trees support entire ecosystems. Geez, you miss a lot when you just look at the big picture don't you?

Quote[/b] ]There are some things God doesnt want us to know, and we just have to live with it, the same thing you tell a 3 yr old who constantly questions 'why?'

Good analogy, I am that annoying 3 year old who is constantly tugging on the pant legs of God. WHY God, why? I truly understand that there are things God doesn't want us to know, those things he set forth in the Bible (eg, the time of Christ's return). But that doesn't mean there aren't answer to be had. The day I stop questioning is the day I die, that's the day I stop learning.

Quote[/b] ]You really have gotten way to hung up on the details.

Perhaps, but those details are what support the entire structure. Details are important, in every facet of life. You can't tell me that details aren't important to a scientist, that details aren't important to a doctor. Why are details any less important to a philosopher?

Quote[/b] ]If you want to truely enjoy the journey, then sit back and let God take you down the path.

Have you ever been to Disney world or Six Flags and been on those little car rides that take you along at a pleasant little pace and keep you on the straight and narrow with a beam in the road? That's fun when you're a kid. As you grow older you want the car to speed up. You want to take the wheel and see what lies on the other side of the road. The same applies here.

Quote[/b] ]Does it matter what the road is made of? Not really, all that matters is that it is smooth and paved for your journey. God will steer you around the pot-holes, and if he doesnt then perhaps there was something to be learned from going through the pot-hole. Take his chastisement as a sign that he really truely loves you, and is trying to make you a better person. Dont be a victim, be the victor.

Agh, this opens up a whole other discussion on the needs of God and necessary evil, which I unfortunately do not have time to go into just now.

But please, explain to me how you see me as a victim? Because I know I could say the same of you.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Before I post some more inconsistencies, I need you to answer me, as a student of the Bible, do you believe the Bible is without error? I honestly want to know where you stand. I've asked before and this question is constantly avoided.

I'll be honest with you and tell you that when I was Christian, I held no preconceived notions of an "infallible" Bible. I grew up Christian and was taught to be so, so I just accepted it. It was only after earnest study did I start seeing things I couldn't answer.

I'm not trying to trick you or to use something against, you, I honestly want to know how you feel about this subject. This question is open to everyone here.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I finally found the verse I had long forgotten.

Quote[/b] ]1 Thessalonians 5:21

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

In this verse you have two great truths:
I.—The right, duty, and necessity of judgment. "Prove all things." Every individual Christian has a right to judge for himself by the Word of God, whether that which is put before him as religious truth, is God's truth, or is not.

II.—The duty and necessity of keeping firm hold upon truth. "Hold fast that which is good."  God requires every Christian to compare man's writings with God's revelation, and to make sure that he is not deluded and taken in by false teaching.

Or if you look at it in the NIV, "Test everything. Hold on to the good."

We are required to know the reason of our faith and practice, that our piety may not be superstition, but the result of intelligent conviction, arising from thorough investigation.

Now you know what I am doing.

 

[PapaToad]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 21 2004,10:15)]Before I post some more inconsistencies, I need you to answer me, as a student of the Bible, do you believe the Bible is without error?  I honestly want to know where you stand.  I've asked before and this question is constantly avoided.

I really want to see them all , Please post them so I may reasearch them myself.

Thanks

 

[PapaToad]

Adn Yes i think the bible is without error, Mis translations, sure, error no,