Speaking in tongues: a discussion

I mostly agree with Maid (not much of a suprise :) ) and since I am a stupid small human that " sees through a glass darkly" as Paul put it I thought I would post a pasage of God's word that talks about toungues in the church. I have highlighted some parts but feel it speaks clearly on the subject.

Kel Queen of all Europe

Corinthians 14:2-28 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6 Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16 If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17 You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

20 Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25 and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
 
Bill...I love that term Prayer Language. That is my Spirit communicating with the Lord. I have used the phrase "speaking in tongues" meaning the same thing.


I have never Spoke in Tongues (the gift which must be accompanied by interpretation.) But I have seen it a number of times.

My wife has also seen a Pastor tell a woman when she stood up "speaking in tongues"...."Sister Vivian, it's my turn to speak, that is not of God. Sit down." This Pastor has been given alot of Gifts of the Spirit, He knew what was of God and what wasn't.
I have met him, he actually performed our wedding ceremony, and I was a youth minister under him. He has been given the gifts of tongues, interpretations, healing, prohecy, widom, knowledge, evengelism, teaching and a few more.
He also has never had anyone slain in the spirit, but has seen a few people fall down, overwhelmed by the Spirit, as have I.
 
Just note that no person is infallable, even solomon who probably was one of the wisest person to live, made bad decisions that ultimately corrupted him. It is vital that people have accountable relationships that will show people when they stray from the path.
 
The gift of speaking on tongues is absolutely Biblical, and was not something that occurred only in the days of the Apostles. There are two different uses of speaking in tongues that come to mind. The first is speaking in tongues during prayer, or as evidence of being filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

On the day of Pentecost the evidence of being filled with the Holy Ghost was speaking in other tongues. Someone already mentioned Acts 2:38, but the next verse says:

Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

The infilling of the Holy Ghost is a promise for everyone. I believe this carries through to the church today and have experienced it.

Tongues and interpretation is a different thing than speaking in tongues during prayer or as evidence of the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and is one of the gifts of the Spirit. It is used to relay a message to the body of Christ. The verses posted above explain that perfectly.

Both of these things are occurrences I have grown up around and experienced, so I believe in them very strongly. I speak in tongues quite frequently (no pride intended here - it is a gift of the Spirit and has nothing to do with me), and it's a part of my experience with God that I cherish.

That being said, there are churches that abuse this, and it is not always a genuine act of the Spirit. I know of one church that had scheduled classes to teach people to speak in tongues. I have also seen pastors cut someone off in the process of "tongues and interpetation" and the pastor felt it wasn't truly a message from God.

As for being slain in the Spirit, that has happened to me once. We had a missionary visiting us for a service, and at an altar call as he walked around praying with people you could feel the power of God all around this man. He prayed with me, and the next thing I knew I was laying on the floor staring up at the underside of a pew. I don't remember falling, don't remember hitting the floor, just an overwhelming feeling of being in the presence of God.

Anyway, great discussion. It's so wonderful to be able to be open about topics like this and have a civil discussion with other people.
 
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I'll try not to reiterate what people have already said about whether it's biblical or not; that's all good stuff to chew on and more expertly handled by others than myself. I'll just throw in my personal experience for the possible benefit of others who may wonder why they're not "good enough" to speak in tongues.

Up until a couple years ago, I had very little exposure to the idea of speaking in tongues or slaying in the spirit except for the occasional sermon about Gifts of the Spirit or what you might see on tv. I approach God from an intellect/logic angle, and I've always had a problem with miracles (healing or otherwise), tongues, holy ghost visitations, angels, demons, etc. Parts of it just seemed too dramatic, too..."put on", along the lines of holding your hands in the air during a hymn. (yes, that's a bit judgemental and I'll get to that in a sec)

I met another christian DJ who attends a church in the Toronto area that for a few years was well known as the Laughing Church, due to people breaking out into laughter or falling or other manifestations of holy spirit visitations. It's not known as that any more, but things like that still go on I hear. God has definitely blessed their work and they're doing great things (the church is huge, has services every day of the week, runs their own weekend retreats [Delerious? played one, last Easter, for 1000's of youth]), regardless of what I might think about their beliefs.

I did a new year's party with this guy for their youth group and that was my first up front exposure to speaking in tongues. A little while before midnight, the youth pastor gets up to do a "prophetic", where the youth leader would be talking, do a kind of mini-sermon and then encourage people to "feel God, feel the spirit" or pray or speak in tongues if God was leading you to, etc. He got us to place our hands on our neighbours shoulder, pray for that person, that God would be in their lives in the new year. Many of the guys in my group were babbling away in tongues, and looking around I saw people kneeling or lying prostrate (not vibrating or anything, just lying still).

It was really tough for me. Here I am, with a completely different spiritual experience, and I was feeling...nothing. I was really trying to be open to it, to try and feel whatever these kids were feeling, to start speaking in ancient aramaic or something, but there just wasn't anything there. I'm praying, asking God to show me what I'm missing. I started to wonder if I wasn't a "good enough" christian to receive the blessing. I was also having a really hard time not judging these people either, judging whether they were being authentic or not. "Is this for real? Or are they just putting it on 'cuz everybody else is doing it?" If they were faking it, then it's ok if I wasn't feeling something, but if they were genuine, then maybe I had a problem. It was hard to get over my existing negative opinion about "dramatics", to not look at all that noise as a distraction from "real" worship and prayer.

I eventually got over the judgemental thing later that night and instead of trying to determine these kid's authenticity, I focussed on enjoying their enthusasim for God, to let that infect me and enjoy the moment in my own personal way.

My own lack of "feeling" was more troublesome. Eventually, after much prayer, I eventually settled my doubts on the fact that God meets us wherever we are in life, and approaches in a way that's *relevant* to our experience. (If it's not relevant, then it won't have impact or meaning)

With the myriad of human experiences, cultures and histories out in the world, it's unlikely (and perhaps limiting) to think that God will only communicate to us in one way, and that way warrants only a single, appropiate form of response. My response, the one I'm comfortable making, just happens to be very different from my friend's and his church's. (Yes, Tongues is suppose to be a gift, but it always seems to happen in the context of a service or worship, and can't just be "turned on" at will, that's why I refer to it has a response)

His beliefs on tongues, demons and spirits, and my skepticism of same hasn't impeded our friendship and in fact it's been beneficial for me as I feel that I've grown in other areas because of my exposure to his very different spiritual upbringing. (most definitely in the "judging" department) For the most part, we agree on what's really important, and carry out informative, civil discourse on anything else, just like we're doing right now in this thread.

Anyways, I'll let you come to your own conclusions on what to take from the story. Hope it was beneficial in some way!

PS - And yes, it was strange to spinning house music one moment, then having a leader do a mini-sermon, only to wake everybody up out of their prayerful meditation 15 seconds before midnight for the count down. :)
 
wishanem said:
(this is quite possibly off-topic, but I've been awake for about 24 hours) ... I think Christians spend too much time thinking about how great the afterlife will be and don't realize that being a believer is the best possible way to live.
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Matthew 6:21 - For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
 
Wish I could have been a part of this conversation. It has been incredible to read. I am relatively new to the gifts of the spirit, including speaking in tongues. I do believe that the Lord gives this gift, perhaps in three different ways. One would be speak in the tongue of man - or speaking a foreign language that has not previously been studied ( there is a really long scientific name for this too ), then there is speaking in the tongue of angels, either in a prayer language or a prophetic manner (where interpretation would be required).

All are powerful gifts given from the Lord. It might be interesting to start a thread on the other spiritual gifts.

Gen
 
ChickenSoup said:
I read in 1 Corinthians 13:8 that tongues no longer tongue things. Sooo... yeah.
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That actually applies to all spiritual gifts, really. And it only says that they will go away (when that which is perfect has come), but it doesn't say anything to my knowledge that indicates that this perfect thing has already come.

The only perfect thing I know of that has come was Christ and then the Holy Spirit, both of which came before (in the case of the Holy Spirit, JUST before) we were first given the gift of tounges.

Not that I am a supporter of speaking in tounges, in general. I happen to beleive that the misuse of the term alone has made such a mockery of it, God is very unlikely to use it just because the stigma of it probably would do more harm than good, but this verse doesn't make me discount it. My old church used this verse to say that the gift of tounges no longer applied, because the complete version of the bible had been published, and that was "the pefect," but I can't find anything that indicates that either... and I happen to beleive that other gifts, such as prophecy, are still accurately used some today.

This verse, in my personal opinion, is that this referrs to the second coming, and the "New Kingdom" in Jerusalem. At this point, beleivers will have resurrected bodies, we will live in a theocracy ruled over directly by God himself, and sin will finally be banished from the earth. At that point a perfect world will exist, and the use for these gifts that were designed as tools for us to win souls to Christ, will no longer be necessary.

It's dangerous to base doctrine on a single verse. It is that practice that has made critics of Christianity so convinced that the Bible contridicts itself so much. I think the most convincing evidence that "tounges have ceased" is the lack of evidence of seeing it done properly. And I don't think that's really evidence that the gift isn't in use anymore, only that it isn't used often. I think that all these gifts were given as ways for us to edify God, and spread the gospel, and was turned into a way to edify ourselves (i.e. the belief that they are evidence of what a good Christian are.)

From my reading of the scriptures, these gifts (all of them - not just tounges) were given to be useful in our service to the kingdom, but not everyone will receive all or any of these gifts. In today's world, the Word has been spread just about to every part of the world, and our own intelegence has advanced so that we can obtain some of these abilities on our own, such as learning how to speak Spanish, rather than waiting on God to just make us do it.
 
Isaiah 8:12-13
"Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy ; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread
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My experience.. When I was first born again I attended "The Church of the Nazareene" down the street..

My husband and I attended a prayer meeting one wednesday night..

God, it was a powerfull prayer meeting!
Oh, how I desire to pray like that!

Nevertheless, while enjoined in prayer with the saints there the Holy Spirit caused both my husband and I to sit perfectly still! He held us there, as we both submitted to His Holy Spirit, in perfect stillness and oneness with Himself, quite an experience.. When we came out from the meeting my husband and I both witnessed what He had done. My husband said, now I know what it's like to be drunk with the Spirit :)

Some scriptual references for being drunk:
Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

Isaiah 51:17
Awake, awake! Rise up, O Jerusalem, you who have drunk from the hand of the LORD the cup of his wrath, you who have drained to its dregs the goblet that makes men stagger.

Song of Solomon 5:1
[ Lover ] I have come into my garden, my sister, my bride; I have gathered my myrrh with my spice. I have eaten my honeycomb and my honey; I have drunk my wine and my milk. [ Friends ] Eat, O friends, and drink; drink your fill, O lovers.

Isaiah 29:9
Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless; be drunk, but not from wine, stagger, but not from beer.

Isaiah 51:21-22
21 Therefore hear this, you afflicted one,
made drunk, but not with wine.
22 This is what your Sovereign LORD says,
your God, who defends his people:
"See, I have taken out of your hand
the cup that made you stagger;
from that cup, the goblet of my wrath,
you will never drink again.

Lamentations 4:21
Rejoice and be glad, O Daughter of Edom, you who live in the land of Uz. But to you also the cup will be passed; you will be drunk and stripped naked.

Revelation 17:6
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

Ephesians 5:18
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

Acts 2:15
These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning!
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Slain is the spirit:
Job 13:15
Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him; I will surely defend my ways to his face.
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There are a LOT more scriptural references to being slayed by God, this is, however the only one He showed me concerning being slayed while being righteous..

As for tongues.. The Holy Spirit does say it is His gift to those who are called to such..
1 Corinthians 14:22
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.
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How do we know that the "tongues" mentioned in the Bible are actually what we think they are? Maybe the "tongues" are just languages. It'd certainly help with the whole "witnessing-to-the-masses-who-don't-sp33k-mah-language-d00d"
 
Is there a difference? Regardless of what/how/when we ask, God always has the option to say "yes", "no", and "not yet". (not to imply that God is limited in His responses, but I would guess that those three answers cover 99.999% of responses that He gives us.)

I remember asking God for something repeatedly... a lot.... often. Was that begging? Perhaps. I really thought that I wanted it at the time. But I never got it. Looking back, I'm quite glad.

But to answer Hmmmm's specific question... I suppose it depends on your reasons for asking.

- If you're asking God to do something just for the sake of it happening, then I think it's wrong (I think that's along the same as people asking Jesus to perform miracles, though they wouldn't believe any more after the miracle).

- If you're asking because you want to be special... then you're in the wrong frame of mind. You should be looking to bring glory to God, not yourself.

- If you're asking so that it can be used to bring another brother or sister to Christ, then I think it could be appropriate.
 
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If you're asking because you want to be special... then you're in the wrong frame of mind. You should be looking to bring glory to God, not yourself.
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Ok, the problem is that i have known many who have asked God for tongues....and recieved it...sort of..They got something that sounded like tongues.

Do you believe that Satan can give someone "fake " tongues that disrupt the church instead of uniting it?
 
Hmmmm said:
Ok, the problem is that i have known many who have asked God for tongues....and recieved it...sort of..They got something that sounded like tongues.
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There's nothing wrong with asking God for a gift; the Bible says God delights in giving his children what they ask for. At the same time Durruck is right, tongues (whether Prophetic -- that's glossalia that is entended to be used with an interpretter ONLY, Translatory -- speaking a foreign language without knowing it, or Prayer -- glossalia for the sake of personal edification) are tools that God gives us, they should never ever be used to make you feel special.

If God has chosen to bless your friends with glossalia, rejoice with them. If God has chosen to not bless you with them, perhaps he does not want to because it does not line up with his plan for you -- rejoice also because God's plan for you involves something else. :)

In reference to Manyik's post, remember that St. Paul is right -- glossalia is a gift unto ones self, and if you are going to beg God for a gift, minor in asking for glossalia and major in asking for what Paul calls a major gift: one like evangelism, encouragement, interpreting, or healing --- these gifts all HELP OTHER PEOPLE. Nuff said. :)

Hmmmm said:
Do you believe that Satan can give someone "fake " tongues that disrupt the church instead of uniting it?
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Genesis1315 said:
I think that is where the discernment of spirits comes in
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Prayer is also key in defending against this. Satan has no right to interfere with God's church, but being a *blinkityblinkyblinkblink*, Satan will do everything he can to do things that he has no right to do, and so the Saints often have to stick it to him so he "remembers."

However, always always always always always bear in mind that Satan is much much much much much weaker than God and even the church (Matt 16:18 and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.) Satan does not and can not win, he just likes to think and likes us to think that he can.

(I know that was off topic. Oops.)

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And now, back to the topic of tongues & other charismata

I'm just gonna throw some things out there, not intending to solve this debate or anything, just giving food for thought.

>>>Tongues: I was given the gift of Prayer tongues... that is, glossalia for the sake of personal edification. I do not believe that this gift is intended to be used in a church setting, but rather for personal talks between me and God, one-on-one.

Speaking in tongues is as easy as talking. Actually, for me, it is even easier :p impedimentia FTS. Receiving the gift was pretty easy to, but it has a history that I need to recount: For years I was skeptical that this was real-- until one Pentecost Sunday my pastor did a great message on speaking in tongues and other charismata. I did not go forward at that time; I believed that if God wanted me to be up there he would tell me, and I didn't hear him say go so I didn't go. The next sunday, however, I (being the church sound tech) was up in the front of the church praying before the service, and the music pastor (aka the pastor's wife, my aunt) suddenly began to go down the line of us, placing her hands on us and saying "In Jesus' name, be filled with the Holy Spirit!" What was amazing in this is that I knew darn well that I was the only one on the team that could not speak in tongues, and in my spirit I knew that she was doing this because God wanted me to be able to as well. As soon as she touched me and said those words, it was like a little door opened in the back of my mind and I could speak in tongues. Moreover since then I have had less trouble with listening to the Holy Spirit.

>>>Slaying in the Spirit:

This one am I less comfortable with, but that is probably because I have never experienced it. But, two stories:

1. One sunday in church we had a visiting pastor who at the end of the service came out and laid hands on people and prayed for them. Many of the people he prayed for were laid flat. At that point I was still very worried about this, the grand total of my knowledge about this came from one book that said "Slaying in the Spirit is the principle way in which Satan possesses christians" -- so yeah, not good. So at this time I felt God's pressence from this pastor but in my heart I prayed that God would protect me. I also was determined that whatever God had for me, he could give it to me while I was awake and conscious. Looking back I realize that I was trying to meet God on my own terms, but that's getting ahead of myself. When the pastor got to me, he laid his hands on me very gently. As he prayed, however, I was most definitely hit with a force which I can only say was God, because it penetrated deep into me and I felt love and God's sorrow -- and forgiveness -- over my sins. It became very hard to stay standing, and I know that if I had surrendered to God I would have gone down. But there was a distinct choice that had to be made -- God wasn't going to force it on me. I decided that I could not comfortably surrender, and the feeling went away. The pastor had not tried to force anything on me, and neither had God, but the feeling was definitely there.

2. My mother has lived 40+ years of her life under the cruel bondage of legalism, which needless to say has made our relationship suffer in ways that are not good. No matter how much she heard the truth about God's grace, she would either not understand it or outright reject it. And who could blame her? The legalism was an integral, in-grained foundation of her life and faith. It was also compounded by bad experiences that she was unable to deal with (her family was destroyed by alcoholism, witchcraft, and rebellion) and so there seemed nothing that any of us could do to help her get over it. The bondage was something we basically just had to accept.

Last month she was at a weekly prayer meeting and this all happened to come out. The wonderful Christian ladies at the prayer meeting all gathered around her to pray for release. She went down.

While she was down, God gave her a vision, and she has given me permission to share it with you:
She was on a farm, with a farmhouse and a barn. She was standing outside, and with her was a sleigh, with horses attached to it. On the sleigh was a huge pile of books -- all of her 'knowledge' of 'truth' and God, but in reality all the garbage that she had based her faith on. All the crap, the lies, the legalism. She was trying to guide the horses out of the farmyard, but they would always turn around and return. Finally, one of the ladies at the prayer meeting (who has taken my mother under her wing) appeared and helped guide the horses out. They left and were gone. As my mother turned around and walked back to the farmhouse, she felt emptied and alone, but suddenly she saw my father coming out of the house. He embraced her, then looked down and pointed at her hand. She looked down and saw that she had a small bag of books. "Look," said my dad, "You've still got some good knowledge left. That's a good thing."

Of course, the proof is in the pudding -- one could dream anything and it mean nothing, or could have hundreds of gifts and be a resounding gong, as Paul says. But here is the result.

My mother is no longer in the grips of legalism. Where our relationship was strained by judgementalism and my rebellion to it, it is healing. When my mother reads the Bible, she is not condemned by her mind anymore, instead she approaches God's word with a wonder and a love. It is truly amazing and wonderful to see.

Oh... and sorry if I make nonsensical statements here... I've been crying for the last six paragraphs. God is awesome, and I'm getting used to having a real mom after all these years.

Praise Jesus and rejoice with me, world!
 
(blurp) John 7:38 wOOt!!!(note the words as scriptures say) hmm kinda like he knew that You would be reading his words!Among my travels I have noticed tongue and within that, the extra rib must be a antenna, for women seem to speak it upwards more so than men. And to ask for what HAS been given is out of focus. There is so much you are you can't imagine! Old stories has it, if God wills it, it will be so. So many stories to relate to but think fire retardant and giants. And what is the greatest gift hmmm Ask for it then let it out and then you have a true highly valued way way up on the scale of gifts and it didn't cost you anything but a friend who spoke LOVE!!!! Get ya sum!!!(blurp
 
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