Question for Women...

D

Dark Virtue

New Member
*Edited to add more quotes

I was wondering how you felt about the disparity between men and women in the Bible.  Do you feel that women were treated unfairly?  If so, why would God condone women to be treated less than men?

And what of women as ministers? Are you for this or against it?

Here are a few quotes and verses that I was thinking about:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"each of you women is an Eve . . . You are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law."
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-Church writer Tertullian

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"If a woman grows weary and at last dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing, she is there to do it."
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-Martin Luther

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"The social and legal position of an Israelite wife was inferior to the position a wife occupied in the great countries round about... all the texts show that Israelites wanted mainly sons to perpetuate the family line and fortune, and to preserve the ancestral inheritance... A husband could divorce his wife; women on the other hand could not ask for divorce... the wife called her husband Ba'al or master; she also called him adon or lord; she addressed him, in fact, as a slave addressed his master or subject, his king. The Decalogue includes a man's wife among his possessions... all her life she remains a minor. The wife does not inherit from her husband, nor daughters from their father, except when there is no male heir. A vow made by a girl or married woman needs, to be valid, the consent of the father or husband and if this consent is withheld, the vow is null and void. A man had a right to sell his daughter. Women were excluded from the succession."
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-Roland de Vaux, archaeologist and priest

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"The Bible and the church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of woman's emancipation."
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-Elizabeth Cady Stanton

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"Man enjoys the great advantage of having a god endorse the code he writes; and since man exercises a sovereign authority over women it is especially fortunate that this authority has been vested in him by the Supreme Being. For the Jews, Mohammedans and Christians among others, man is master by divine right; the fear of God will therefore repress any impulse towards revolt in the downtrodden female."
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-Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex 1949

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"The bible teaches that women brought sin and death into the world, that she precipitated the fall of the race, that she was arraigned before the judgment seat of Heaven, tried, condemned and sentenced. Marriage for her was to be a condition of bondage, maternity a period suffering and anguish, and in silence and subjection, she was to play the role of a dependent on man's bounty for all her material wants, and for all the information she might desire... Here is the Bible position of woman briefly summed up."
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-Elizabeth Cady Stanton

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The various Christian churches fought tooth and nail against the advancement of women, opposing everything from women's right to speak in public, to the use of anesthesia in childbirth (since the bible says women must suffer in childbirth) and woman's suffrage. Today the most organized and formidable opponent of women's social, economic and sexual rights remains organized religion. Religionists defeated the Equal Rights Amendment. Religious fanatics and bullies are currently engaged in an outright war of terrorism and harassment against women who have abortions and the medical staff which serves them. Those seeking to challenge inequities and advance the status of women today are fighting a massive coalition of fundamentalist Protestant and Catholic churches and religious groups mobilized to fight women's rights, gay rights, and secular government.
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-Dan Barker

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)

"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)


"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)


"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)


"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)


"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)


"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)


"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)


I know I addressed the title of the thread as a question for women, but I welcome any comments.
 
Context:

The Lord wants us to mimic the relationship he wants with us. He wants us to submit our will to his will and the Lord will take care of absolutely everything. The same is true with our human relationships. The Lord has commanded wives to submit to their husbands, slaves to their masters, employees to their employers and by the same token, he instructs those he has placed in headship (husbands, leaders, masters, employers, governments) to care for those in their stewardship as they would expect the Lord to watch over them.
 
Interesting.

So you are agreeing that women should submit to their husbands, just as slaves submit to their masters.

Do you also agree that women should cover their heads when praying as Paul stipulated in I Cor. 11:5-6?
 
My thoughts, which God has sown into my heart and i cannot prove....

A woman is to submit to her husband for she is to trust his judgment and trust that he is doing what is best, If there is any doubt of his judgment they should talk, A woman has as just as much of a voice, but if no agreement can be made the man should be the decision maker. Now it is a mans resonsibilty to live up to expectation and always and only do what he thinks is the best for her, he must put her interest and happiness before his own. He must love her more then he loves himself, for if he loves her that much he would never do anything but good to her.

Call me a sexist, call me whatever, but this is how i interpret what i have read and this way seems almost perfect, and i see nothing that couold go wrong in this relationship unless one of them doesnt do their side.

Covering their heads? Ehhh, I think they shoudl make sure they do not dress provokatively as to make herself the object of another man's lust. So short shorts, short skirts and anything skimpy is a no no, If a girl would rather turn other guys on then have her partner feel comfortable, then she obviously loves something more then she loves you.
 
Paul wasn't interested in skirt length or provocative dress. Let's look at the verses in context:

Propriety in Worship

2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.
3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

This also says that women should not have short hair, nor should men have long hair. Why then, do the majority of renderings of Christ show him with long hair? Wouldn't that be a disgrace to him?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So you are agreeing that women should submit to their husbands, just as slaves submit to their masters.
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Christian submission is alot different then the perverted submission you have playing around in your mind that you are hoping to trap me in. And in my context of submission (meaning not your context), yes.

1 Cor 11:5-6 you have blown out of context. Not only does it say that women should cover their head, it goes on to say that if women do not cover their head, they should cut their hair but seeing as cutting their hair is "shameful" it is better for them to cover their heads. AND it gives instruction to men to not cover their heads and to keep their hair short or head shaved and not long as long hair is considered a covering of their heads.

Its a contrast of differences but in no way sexist. It is a sign of respect for the head of the relationship(s) in question.
 
I posted the whole thing in context by the way, so I wouldn't be blamed for taking it OUT of context.

And no, I don't have some perverted thinking in mind, try dragging YOUR mind out of the gutter. Nor is this a trap, it's an honest discussion.

Now, let's talk about covering of the head. Would you see guys in church praying with baseball caps on? No, because it's dishonorable. But on the other hand, you do NOT see women with their heads covered, do you? Sure, there are some women that wear hats, etc, but what about the honor of the women that don't cover their heads? Isn't that the same thing as having a man wear a hat during prayer?
 
And just for the record, in Ephesians 5:22, submit comes from the greek word Hupotasso which means:

to arrange under, to subordinate
to subject, put in subjection
to subject one's self, obey
to submit to one's control
to yield to one's admonition or advice
to obey, be subject

There is no indication of respect here.  Slaves do not respect their masters, they are subjected by them.
 
As for Jesus having long hair, it is a wrong to assume he did as:

1.  The scriptures don't mention one way or the other
2.  It would be unscriptural for him to have long hair.
3. There are no portraits of Jesus

The Renaissance portraits of Jesus depict him as having long flowing stright or wavy brown hair... the artists were great painters but they were not eyewitnesses.
 
Why then, in our understanding of scripture, do churches continue to propigate this incorrect and dishonoring view of Christ?
 
Im not paul, im a brother of Jesus myself.

Hair length? thats just pointless....

And ephesians isnt the book of paul, they were not written in the same language and as you aleardy seem to know submit has many meanings.

Jesus cannot look dishonoring... how we invision his appearance is probobly the least important thing to him.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 28 2004,12:48)]And just for the record, in Ephesians 5:22, submit comes from the greek word Hupotasso which means:

to arrange under, to subordinate
to subject, put in subjection
to subject one's self, obey
to submit to one's control
to yield to one's admonition or advice
to obey, be subject

There is no indication of respect here.  Slaves do not respect their masters, they are subjected by them.
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Biblically slaves are to respect their masters and masters to respect their slaves.

And you really aren't trying to drag my mind out of the gutter.

And what does Eph 5:25 say to husbands? To give our lives to and for our wives. Sounds like submission to me. The submission of wifes to husbands is cyclical. Ephesians goes on to say that we are to love our wives, nourish and cherish our wives. Doesn't sound like beating them into submission or to lord over them our headship or to treat them as second class citizens. We are to hold our wives in as high a regards as we hold ourselves.
 
Byblos, I said, "as Paul stipulated in I Cor. 11:5-6", I didn't say anything about Paul writing Ephesians.

If the topic of hair length was pointless, why did Paul talk about it? Was he just filling space in the Bible?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 28 2004,12:53)]Why then, in our understanding of scripture, do churches continue to propigate this incorrect and dishonoring view of Christ?
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Then, maybe you should go to such a church and ask the minister there. I have not been in a church that displays a picture of Jesus, much less one that protrays him with long hair.
 
No, you got your definition of submission from ephesions, and my point was that because whoever wrote ephesions meant the aord one way doesnt mean paul could mean it a different way.

show me to the place where paul speaks of hair so i can read it.
 
I understand what you're saying Peon, my discussion wasn't meant to discredit men and women in their own relationships, but rather the relationship towards God. For instance, Paul says, "the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man". Shouldn't it have been the head of every one is Christ? What if a woman isn't married?

I'd also like your feedback about women covering their heads in prayer.
 
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