Physical, Incontrovertible Proof of God

D

Dark Virtue

New Member
This topic has been kicked around a little, but I'd like to bring it front and center.

Why doesn't God give us, today, actual proof of his existence? Why doesn't he do something miraculous like appear in front of everyone at the same time, shake their hand and say, "Hi, I'm God. Here's my book"?

Why the need for the mind games? Why not just lay it all on the line?

IS there a reason not to come out and prove once and for all? Why can't we believe in God with empirical evidence?
 
Well, He tried that once, just take a look at Jesus. He taught on Earth for 30 years, he healed the crippled, the sick, the leperous, the blind, the deaf, and the dumb. He even raised others and Himself from the dead. Eventhough some believed Him many don't.


(Luke 16:31 NIV) "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
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Exactly!

And that's because that wasn't INCONTROVERTABLE proof! If they didn't believe he was the son of god, then they didn't have enough proof to believe him.

I'm talking about THE man, G O D himself. Why doesn't he do the handshake thing I suggested?

If you believe that Jesus WAS proof enough, then why didn't everyone believe him? And what chance do we have now so far removed from any kind of REAL proof. It's one thing to truly believe in God and outright deny him, but we don't have anywhere near the evidence of God to make a logical, rational choice to follow him or not.
 
i think noahs ark is pretty good proof being stuck up in the mountains and having a sattelite picture.... we just need to excavate it
 
It may have some thing to do with The nature of man? I can not answer your question I can only speculate. God has shown himself to very few in a actully manisestation. Moses had to wear a veil because the glory of God shown on his face from being in the Persence of the Almighty and it scared the people so.

I believe it would be the same today, if God apeared terror would seize the common masses, evey vile and wicked thought would be known to him and I think some would die of fright alone.

And those He did show himself to, did ther best to seek God on Gods terms, they did there best to honor and bring glory to the Lord.

And the logicasl rational choice, I make no illusion my scienific standards I made no logical or rationalew choice to follow God, I sought with my spirit; Becuase the Bible instructed me to do so, That is where I found him, with my spirit. I do pray some day this all makes sense.

But back to your comment, I believe it is because we could not handle being in this phyical presense at this time, But then who am I to suggest anything :)
 
God doesn't appear to us because we couldn't handle it? Oh wait - God's omniscient, I'm sure he could think of a way to get around that, if he put his mind to it.

Oh and ATown, that ISN'T the ark. It's been looked for and not found - what you think is the ark, from that sat photo, isn't.
 
Eon said:
God doesn't appear to us because we couldn't handle it? Oh wait - God's omniscient, I'm sure he could think of a way to get around that, if he put his mind to it.

Oh and ATown, that ISN'T the ark. It's been looked for and not found - what you think is the ark, from that sat photo, isn't.
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Then what is it. Ive seen parts of that documentary and never got to know what it was.
 
hescominsoon said:
The bible specifically says..we had hte prophets before to hear..if we see the prrof you seek they willl stil not believe. Give me a bit to find that exact passage.

Besides..the proof youa re looking for is not faith..read hebrews 11:1.
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(Luke 16:31 NIV) "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
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There you go Hes...is that what oyu were talking about?
 
MontrezAnthony said:
It may have some thing to do with The nature of man? I can not answer your question I can only speculate. God has shown himself to very few in a actully manisestation. Moses had to wear a veil because the glory of God shown on his face from being in the Persence of the Almighty and it scared the people so.

I believe it would be the same today, if God apeared terror would seize the common masses, evey vile and wicked thought would be known to him and I think some would die of fright alone.
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Come come now, you're limiting God. He's omnimax remember? I think he could appear to everyone in a calm manner, no one would have to die.

And the logicasl rational choice, I make no illusion my scienific standards I made no logical or rationalew choice to follow God, I sought with my spirit; Becuase the Bible instructed me to do so, That is where I found him, with my spirit. I do pray some day this all makes sense.
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That's great for YOU, but some of us rely on the brain that God supposedly gave us. It's the logic and reason that makes man, MAN.

But back to your comment, I believe it is because we could not handle being in this phyical presense at this time, But then who am I to suggest anything :)
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Poppycock! If God can't appear to man without man disintegrating, then you are limiting the power of God, thus removing his omnimax title. If God can do ANYTHING, he can appear to man in a safe manner.
 
hescominsoon said:
The bible specifically says..we had hte prophets before to hear..if we see the prrof you seek they willl stil not believe. Give me a bit to find that exact passage.

Besides..the proof youa re looking for is not faith..read hebrews 11:1.
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That was my point though, why can't we believe in God with proof? Why does it have to be on faith alone?
 
Dark Virtue said:
Come come now, you're limiting God. He's omnimax remember? I think he could appear to everyone in a calm manner, no one would have to die.

That's great for YOU, but some of us rely on the brain that God supposedly gave us. It's the logic and reason that makes man, MAN.

Poppycock! If God can't appear to man without man disintegrating, then you are limiting the power of God, thus removing his omnimax title. If God can do ANYTHING, he can appear to man in a safe manner.
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Ok DV, I said you wouldn't like my answer, I am sure God could appaer, but for some reason He doe not do this alot. Also, I know you love to throw the Brain thing into it, But I never remember God telling us to use our brain to find Him, Its always been, faith, heart/spirit.only a few have ever had an exclusive encounter with God phyically. So it can be done,

Why doesn't He just appear? I think it has to do with the fact , He already explained in detail how to seek him correctly :D
 
Ahhh. Debate that can NEVER be ended. This is no answer. So, lets get around the issues.

Here is a simple problem DV. It would not matter if God showed up in the sky or shook every single persons hand on earth and said, "Hey buddy I am God, I created you. By the way that thing that you keep thinking about and that keeps you awake at night.. here is the answer."

People will not all beleive Him. People can be confronted with facts and make emotional decisions to disagree with them. Some points to this order: OJ Simpson, Evolution, Rasicm, Life on other planets, who killed JFK. There are many with many facts that are undisputed. But, you have people on both sides of the issue.

SPeaking for myself, I never understood why God did not do excatly what you are asking, until I had children. Then, I began to understand more of the Parenthood of God.

I personally believe there is irrefutable evidence of one true God. The problem is you see the evidence of God differently than I do. For instance, there is no question historically speaking that a man named Jesus lived in the first century. There is no question historically that Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem (while saying this I know there are those who doubt even this, but historical documents of a non-christian decent give us an account of these facts).

So, here is the biggie question everyone must deal with where is the body of the man Jesus?

Before you jump to answer remember the following: the body was guarding by a squad of Roman soliders.
 
Well, here's something I'm just throwing out there....

God is pure. We are not. We can not become pure with our sinful, physical bodies existing. God can not be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we can not be in the presence of God while still in our bodies because of our sinfulness. Jesus Christ washed away our sins, but our physical bodies are still very much sinful. Even though we are forgiven, we still sin.

Am I correct in the statements above?
 
Emprical evidence for God? It's all around you, everywhere you look. You just have to abandon your own presuppositions and approach the evidence with an open mind. Have you given a serious look at some of the evidence presented by proponents of Intelligent Design? Contrary to the "You blasted ignorant zealots!" protests of pro-evolutionists, there is substance to the Intelligent Design movement.

I'll give you an example. The conditions under which the earth and universe were formed are absolutely absurd. The odds of everything coming together in one cohesive whole to create an environment suitable for life, human life, on earth, is preposterous.

Here's a cool quote on those odds from Sir Fred Hoyle in The Intelligent Universe, "The current scenario for the origin of life is about as likely as the assemblage of a 747 by a tornado whirling through a junkyard."

Now of course, Fred Hoyle is a proponent of panspermia, which is the theory that life arrived on the earth through an asteroid or comet transporting a bacteria or an organism.

The list scientists though (those who know a thing or two about empirical science), who believed in not just a creator, but the Creator mentioned in the Bible, is quite impressive. It includes Blaise Pascal, Samuel F.B. Morse, Francis Bacon, Isaac Newton, and Werhner von Braun.

As for God "not revealing" Himself and saying "Here I Am", that's been addressed a bit in the replys.
 
Mythran said:
Well, here's something I'm just throwing out there....

God is pure. We are not. We can not become pure with our sinful, physical bodies existing. God can not be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we can not be in the presence of God while still in our bodies because of our sinfulness. Jesus Christ washed away our sins, but our physical bodies are still very much sinful. Even though we are forgiven, we still sin.

Am I correct in the statements above?
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You make it sound like sin is kryponite to God.

God is an omnimax being, isn't he?
 
MontrezAnthony said:
Ok DV, I said you wouldn't like my answer, I am sure God could appaer, but for some reason He doe not do this alot. Also, I know you love to throw the Brain thing into it, But I never remember God telling us to use our brain to find Him, Its always been, faith, heart/spirit.only a few have ever had an exclusive encounter with God phyically. So it can be done,

Why doesn't He just appear? I think it has to do with the fact , He already explained in detail how to seek him correctly :D
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So again, you are saying that people like me have sought him incorrectly?

Would you mind explaining to me, in detail, how to find God?

I like the wording you used though, you didn't say anything about FINDING God, you only talked about SEEKING God.

Huge difference.
 
Icthus said:
Ahhh. Debate that can NEVER be ended. This is no answer. So, lets get around the issues.

Here is a simple problem DV. It would not matter if God showed up in the sky or shook every single persons hand on earth and said, "Hey buddy I am God, I created you. By the way that thing that you keep thinking about and that keeps you awake at night.. here is the answer."

People will not all beleive Him.
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IF the God of the Bible exists, then you are limiting his power. If God knows us as well as he says he does, he knows PRECISELY what will flip our switch and cause us to believe.

It is NOT impossible for an omnimax god to offer us incontrovertable proof. Choosing not to and being unable not to are two ver different things.
 
IceBladePOD said:
Emprical evidence for God? It's all around you, everywhere you look. You just have to abandon your own presuppositions and approach the evidence with an open mind. Have you given a serious look at some of the evidence presented by proponents of Intelligent Design? Contrary to the "You blasted ignorant zealots!" protests of pro-evolutionists, there is substance to the Intelligent Design movement.
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Please note the word I included in the title of this thread: INCONTROVERTIBLE.

It is defined as: indisputable, not open to question.

The "evidence" that you claim is around us is definately not incontrovertible, nor is it EVIDENCE, especially EMPIRICAL evidence.

Have I given a serious look into ID? Yes I have, and it has a HUGE problem, that being infinite regression.

That being said, I am not a proponent of macro evolution either.

I'll give you an example. The conditions under which the earth and universe were formed are absolutely absurd. The odds of everything coming together in one cohesive whole to create an environment suitable for life, human life, on earth, is preposterous.
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Can you be a bit more specific? What conditions specifically are you referring to?

Here's a cool quote on those odds from Sir Fred Hoyle in The Intelligent Universe, "The current scenario for the origin of life is about as likely as the assemblage of a 747 by a tornado whirling through a junkyard."

Now of course, Fred Hoyle is a proponent of panspermia, which is the theory that life arrived on the earth through an asteroid or comet transporting a bacteria or an organism.

The list scientists though (those who know a thing or two about empirical science), who believed in not just a creator, but the Creator mentioned in the Bible, is quite impressive. It includes Blaise Pascal, Samuel F.B. Morse, Francis Bacon, Isaac Newton, and Werhner von Braun.
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Neithe one of those men could produce a smattering of empirical evidence for the existence of God though, so I'm not sure why you bring them up.

As for God "not revealing" Himself and saying "Here I Am", that's been addressed a bit in the replys.
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Would you mind sharing your thoughts on these points?
 
[toj.cc]phantom said:
I believe Einstein said;

"The more I study the universe, the more I believe in a higher power."
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I love it when people use Einstein quotes.

You may want to take your quote and temper it with this one:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
[Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]
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