Lies

[Master~Plan]

^Thanx for the story PapaToad

discovering the non-existence of Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy is fine and easy, then why the issues with Jesus?

yeah, I saw that one comming.... So fill me in, how does one ordinary man go about changeing the whole known world in a matter of 35 years? Or do you take the side that Jesus never existed?

What you've said is like saying that you don't want your kids to exercise any independent thought on the matter at all, and that you think YOUR word should be the deciding factor in THEIR belief. That, my friend, is no religion - it's a cult of personality.

You describe no one I know. There is no such thing as forced belief. Not sure if you have kids but, would you not share your experiences with your children? Literal independant though would have to be abandonment. What is your view of the ideal child upbringing?

 

[Dark Virtue]

^Thanx for the story PapaToad

yeah, I saw that one comming.... So fill me in, how does one ordinary man go about changeing the whole known world in a matter of 35 years? Or do you take the side that Jesus never existed?

Would you mind explaining to us how Jesus changed the whole known world in a matter of 35 years? Evidence and/or proof to back up that statement would be appreciated.

Also, please defined "the whole known world".

 

[TheJaz]

What is my son to believe about that carpenter? Daddy said He was real...

totally with you (even though my post is a bit late)

 

[Eon]

Theoretically, if you brought your son up correctly and never mentioned Christianity to him, he would still find it of his own accord or it would find him - isn't that what you believe?

 

[Master~Plan]

Would you mind explaining to us how Jesus changed the whole known world in a matter of 35 years? Evidence and/or proof to back up that statement would be appreciated.

sure, the world has never been the same since he walked the earth. Hundreds of Millions of people want to be like him, change thier lives, and mold thier lives to his teaching. I'll assume proof is not needed

Also, please defined "the whole known world".

np, I guess "known" makes the whole phrase confusing. how about just, "the world"

Theoretically, if you brought your son up correctly and never mentioned Christianity to him, he would still find it of his own accord or it would find him - isn't that what you believe?

I was talking about a non christian raising kids as opposed to a christian raising kids. How does an athiest(any category) go about raising kids on the principle of "independant thought"? I wanted your view bieng that I already have mine.
The Bible teaches to bring up children to know God, because we love them. To share our lives and our knowledge with our kids. But like I said, the question was focused on getting your ideals of child upbringing on "independant thought" if you don't mind.

 

[Dark Virtue]

sure, the world has never been the same since he walked the earth. Hundreds of Millions of people want to be like him, change thier lives, and mold thier lives to his teaching. I'll assume proof is not needed

You assume incorrectly, proof is always needed.

Note that you said, specifically, "So fill me in, how does one ordinary man go about changeing the whole known world in a matter of 35 years?" So how was the whole world changed in a matter of 35 years? Or would you like to rephrase that?

np, I guess "known" makes the whole phrase confusing. how about just, "the world"

I still think you need to define your terms.

I was talking about a non christian raising kids as opposed to a christian raising kids. How does an athiest(any category) go about raising kids on the principle of "independant thought"? I wanted your view bieng that I already have mine.
The Bible teaches to bring up children to know God, because we love them. To share our lives and our knowledge with our kids. But like I said, the question was focused on getting your ideals of child upbringing on "independant thought" if you don't mind.

Well, what do you believe "independant thought" to mean?

Do you mean that in a freethought sort of way? In other words, to come up with answers independant of religious dogma, then I would say that's quite easy to do.

There are many atheists that I term "bible haters". That is, they have a vehemant hatred for religion and put them down at any opportunity. We don't do that. We expose our children to as many forms of religion/philosophies as we can. We tend not to push them in any one direction, instead, letting them explore on their own. Since they go to public school, they have friends of various cultures and religions, so we answer questions as they come.

As I have proven in another thread, the Golden Rule was not invented by Christianity. The idea predates Christianity by a good amount. That ideal is at the core of secular society. Treat others as you would have them treat you. That is also at the core of what we teach our children.

I can tailor this answer better when I understand what you mean by "independant thought".

 

[Eon]

Raising children in the principles of independent thought is a duty that all parents should embrace. Until you've taught them how to think for themselves, you've not finished raising them - even if they get to be forty.

My father, for example, is a confirmed hard atheist. He's convinced that not only does God not exist but that no God exists. However, unless I asked him about it, I'd never have known - because he encouraged me to explore spirituality and look for my own answers.

That's how it should be.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I think this is an area where many Christians falter...and they make no bones about it.

They raise their children as Christians and never expose them (in an honest, objective way) to other religions. They don't even allow the mere IDEA that there are other options for fear of doubt planting a seed.

If Christianity is so strong, so RIGHT, why so much fear?

 

[Dark Virtue]

There is something inherantly evil about declaring my children are on a one way ticket to hell.

But hey, more power to you.

The difference between the way I raise my child and the way you raise yours is that mine have a free choice to make. If that choice leads them to Christianity, so be it. I can rest assured that whatever spiritual/philosophical choices they make, they have made those choices independantly and with logic and reason. They haven't made their choice because they were sheltered from knowing anything about any other world view but they one I wanted them to follow.

 

[Atown]

let me ask u this: say u have a friend setting up a birthday party and its suppose to be a surpise, then u talk to the birthday boy and he asks u straight out "dude is there a party for me tonight?" and you say no, is that considered lieng?

 

[Master~Plan]

You assume incorrectly, proof is always needed.

okay...
my point
my point
my point

So how was the whole world changed in a matter of 35 years? Or would you like to rephrase that?

rephrase? no, you just re asked what I answered... I"ll guess I"ll retype the answer. Ever since Jesus walked the earth, what he said has been followed by masses of people. No matter where on earth you go, you see his influence. Even where Christ is outlawed and followeres persecuted, you will still see missionaries.(btw Jesus' life is estimated at about 35 years if you didn't pick up on that)

I can tailor this answer better when I understand what you mean by "independant thought".

the term was introduced by Eon, and I was asking him to explain further.

My father, for example, is a confirmed hard atheist. He's convinced that not only does God not exist but that no God exists. However, unless I asked him about it, I'd never have known - because he encouraged me to explore spirituality and look for my own answers.

So to go onto a parallel subject, what about drug use? Would you let your chldren find thier own answeres on drugs? Maybe encourage them to explore illegal drug use for themselves?
Another question, rhetorically what about a previous drug abuser who went straight. Would you believe his kids to know about the dangers of drugs?

Since it is biblical to train a chld in the ways of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have no intention of teaching her "independent thought" since that is a one way ticket to hell.

makes sense to me, how about u Eon and DV?

 

[Eon]

Yes - I believe the Jesuits said "Give me a boy from birth until the age of seven and I will have him for life."

I find it interesting that independent thought is considered a one way ticket to Hell. Another student of Saint Augustine, eh?

 

[astrod00d]

Have you ever felt the presence of God around you? I assume that you haven't since anyone who has would most definitely not be an atheist. And if you continue down the path that you are, you never will find Him. You will not sway any here to your belief if they have felt His presence. It just won't happen.

If you need proof of His existence, you will never find it. If you truly believe in Him and seek Him with an open heart, you will find Him. It's really that simple. It is something that a non-believer will never understand.

That is not the only way to find Him. There is another way that is harder. I'm sure you've seen people around the world who have all of a sudden found Christ. It is most likely because they've been 'touched'. Sometimes God has a plan for someone and He really wants it carried out so He 'touches' them and turns their lives around so that they can spread His word.

Who knows? Maybe one day you'll be 'touched'. But if I were you, I'd choose the other way just in case you never are.

 

[Dark Virtue]

okay...
my point
my point
my point

Would you mind clarifying that?

rephrase? no, you just re asked what I answered... I"ll guess I"ll retype the answer. Ever since Jesus walked the earth, what he said has been followed by masses of people. No matter where on earth you go, you see his influence. Even where Christ is outlawed and followeres persecuted, you will still see missionaries.(btw Jesus' life is estimated at about 35 years if you didn't pick up on that)

Errr, no. You said Christ changed the entire world in 35 years. I was asking for proof of this. You see the difference in what you said then and what you are saying now?

So to go onto a parallel subject, what about drug use? Would you let your chldren find thier own answeres on drugs? Maybe encourage them to explore illegal drug use for themselves?

Excellent question. What I would do is teach my children about drugs. Teach them the ramifications, legally and physically. What I would not do is give them a singular speech about how drugs are bad and if you take them, your head will magically explode.

Another question, rhetorically what about a previous drug abuser who went straight. Would you believe his kids to know about the dangers of drugs?

Would an ex drug user want his kids to know about the dangers of drugs? Of course! You seem to think the only way for him to do so is to make them take drugs themselves, and we both know that's not true.

makes sense to me, how about u Eon and DV?

Sorry, but your line of thinking doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Eon]

By independent thought I mean thoughts arrived at independently through a self-actualised process of examination, research and awareness.

It's not a "label" for some sort of esoteric cult or new age sect.

Regarding drug use. I would encourage my kids to form their own opinions, making them aware of the many, many, downsides of drug use. Every drug has its price - even the legal ones.

In my life I've used Alchohol, caffeine, nicotine, pot and grass. I experimented, you might say, and the fact that I no longer use pot or grass at all (despite living where the stuff is legal) and drink very infrequently is entirely down to making informed lifestyle decisions, not through some half-rememeberd guilt from my childhood.

 

[Master~Plan]

I find it interesting that independent thought is considered a one way ticket to Hell. Another student of Saint Augustine, eh?

like dv said, independant thought is still a little unclear. You believe people are to find the right way for themselves? What if we are inherintly evil, and have passed on a sinful nature. Would you still suppose independant thought is such a good idea. Independance and pride has such value in America. However we are dependant on quite a bit. No one was born on thier own. Everyone lives off of the cheap food society gives. We are all taught about previous discoveries in school(won't digress further off topic)We all basically owe everything to our parents, or our guardians. There is one person I met in my public speaking class who was abandoned and raised himself at age 7 in a dumpster. I would consider him to be able to claim the most independance, but he was still dependant on charity of society. Independantly in thought or life, we would not get far.

let me ask u this: say u have a friend setting up a birthday party and its suppose to be a surpise, then u talk to the birthday boy and he asks u straight out "dude is there a party for me tonight?" and you say no, is that considered lieng?

dang, didn't think of that one. For the pure sake of consistency I would have to say that its a lie, but I would consider that to be ethical. I dunno. All the more reason to plan it well so it hits him out of the blue. maybe 2 weeks before hand? that would be awsome...

 

[Genesis1315]

off topic

By independent thought I mean thoughts arrived at independently through a self-actualised process of examination, research and awareness.

Wahooooo, I am a Christian Freethinker

On Topic

Regardless of religion, all parents want their children to have a better life than they had (I think). Wouldn't being honest with your child ultimately provide the best results?

 

[Dark Virtue]

off topic



Wahooooo, I am a Christian Freethinker

Errr, no

A Freethinker is one who basis their decisions apart from authority and religious dogma. Since Christians are entirely dependant on their religious dogma, they can't be a Freethinker. You can be Christian or a Freethinker, but not both, they are mutually exclusive.

That's like me saying I'm a Christian Atheist.

 

[Dark Virtue]

like dv said, independant thought is still a little unclear. You believe people are to find the right way for themselves? What if we are inherintly evil, and have passed on a sinful nature. Would you still suppose independant thought is such a good idea. Independance and pride has such value in America. However we are dependant on quite a bit. No one was born on thier own. Everyone lives off of the cheap food society gives. We are all taught about previous discoveries in school(won't digress further off topic)We all basically owe everything to our parents, or our guardians. There is one person I met in my public speaking class who was abandoned and raised himself at age 7 in a dumpster. I would consider him to be able to claim the most independance, but he was still dependant on charity of society. Independantly in thought or life, we would not get far.

You are assuming that Man is inherantly evil, something born in his psyche, or in your case, his Soul. I think that's a subjective, Christian viewpoint, especially since you included a "sinful" nature. You are trying to pose an objective hypothesis but you are failing because you are binding it with subjective morality.

I don't understand why you feel you are NOT living an independant life. Didn't you have free will to choose God?

This line of thinking isn't going to go very far until someone defined "independant thought".

 

[Master~Plan]

Would you mind clarifying that?

Errr, no. You said Christ changed the entire world in 35 years. I was asking for proof of this. You see the difference in what you said then and what you are saying now?

Sorry man, I have no simpler way to put it. The pictures are proof of massive people changeing thier lifes, which is my point of Jesus changeing the world. I don't have a picture of every christian I"m sorry. I don't see the difference between the two things I previously stated. If your going somewhere with this, please make your point. Do you deny the changeing of hundereds of millions of lives? Do you deny thatJesus has not affected some part of the world? Please give me something to work with

Would an ex drug user want his kids to know about the dangers of drugs? Of course! You seem to think the only way for him to do so is to make them take drugs themselves, and we both know that's not true.

Just as an ex drug user knows the importance of telling his kids the danger, I will tell my kids(if I am given kids someday) about an everlasting God who forgave my sins.

By independent thought I mean thoughts arrived at independently through a self-actualised process of examination, research and awareness.

It's not a "label" for some sort of esoteric cult or new age sect.

heh, I know its not a label. You didn't make up the theory of evolution any more than I made up Christianity. So how are you different from me? What have you done to be a "free thinker"?