Is Dungeons and Dragons
- Thread starter Caleb
- Start date
Ok, I see what you're saying. However, I was indeed "reborn", as you would say. I was a totally different person than I had been. I was immensely gracious for what I believed to be Christ's sacrificial death. I felt terrible guilt and followed the subsequent path of repentance. I mean, look, there's no way I'm ever going to be able to "prove" to you that I was a "true Christian". All I can say is that I was -- besides, none of you are the final arbiters on who is and isn't a Christian. Consider this. Right now, you think you're a "true Christian", correct? I'm sure you do. And yet, if you were to lose your faith ten years from now, would that suddenly nullify the faith you had right now? Of course not, but your current peers would certainly assert such a thing.[b said:
I realize you're not looking for a debate -- I can tell by your tone, and so I'll continue answering your questions. Why am I so angry? I'm not angry at the world or anything -- I have a great life. In fact, my life has been many times better ever since I became an atheist. Regardless, I do not suffer from any forms of depression, anxiety, anger, etc. I am only angry on this board, because Dr. Tek and Miscellaneous continue to use circular arguments, ad hominems, non sequiturs, and a humongous grab bag of other terrible logical fallacies. Not only that, but they are making baseless assertions regarding both my life and my worldview. I mean, they don't know me in real life, and I haven't defined my worldview beyond its absence of a God -- they have no grounds for making any of the statements they were making. Miscellaneous keeps saying "Because the Bible says so, and don't try to make me justify the Bible, because that requires God. By the way, your worldview is totally irrational." Through a nonsensical series of statements, he gives himself and his pseudo-logic no accountability while attacking my (mostly undefined) worldview and giving no/terrible reasons for it.
Why am I trying so hard to turn Christians from their faith? I'm not, really. I actually park every morning at a Mormon church across from my school, and to do so, I have to attend two of their classes a week before school. I do not cause problems or argue, I just sit there. This board, however, is specifically tailored for religious discussion and debate, and so I am going to use it for exactly that. Besides, I could give some reasons for wanting to turn Christians away from their religion, but as they may be seen as offensive to Christians (and only Christians), I'll refrain from listing them, especially since you've been so civil. Again, thanks for at least asking questions and trying to get a bit of an understanding of me.
As for Dr. Tek and Miscellaneous trying to bring me to Christ, they're not going to achieve that through non-cogent arguments, or by telling me that deep down, I really do believe in God, for that matter. Indeed, they are perhaps the worst apologists I've ever seen. But whatever, as I've stated in this and other posts, until they change their tune and start making sense, I'm finished with them.
Thanks for the questions, Narnia.
Thanks for realizing that.[b said:
I was not living a lie until I stopped believing, yet tried in vain through extra-Bible study, church-going, and almost literally perpetual prayer to regain my faith. Once I realized that I was merely trying to self-indoctrinate myself, I cast off the Christian title and truly proclaimed myself an atheist. Tek and Miscellaneous may say I'm not "really" and atheist, but I tell you this, and I am in no way trying to antagonize here, but merely express my true thoughts -- I find the whole "god" idea to be absolutely ridiculous and foolish. I cast Yahweh in the pool of great mythological characters, along with Zeus, Orpheous, Hercules, and Osiris. I 100% do not believe in any god -- as I said, even after I know longer truly believed, I tried to make myself believe. I could not do it. The whole concept is full of balogna. That is my opinion, that is my verdict.[b said:
Say what you may, He is not. Hey, this is fun, not having to back up my assertions. (simple sarcasm...I like you Lion, again, I'm not trying to antagonize you)[b said:
Again, you can say that, but I do not believe it. The involuntary filling and emptying of my lungs, thus drawing oxygen into my body, is why I breathe. I live because I eat, drink, and sleep, and my body of course performs many complex functions aided by those three simple actions, in addition to the protection of my body from the elements. I do not see a god in this equation.[b said:
Here's a thought -- there are a few very different views regarding the nature of Hell. Some have suggested that it is merely eternal seperation from God. If this is true, how is this such a punishment to an atheist? Regardless, I do not fear Hell in the least, as I have no reason to.[b said:
That doesn't make sense, but ok.[b said:
I really would enjoy reading your attempt. If you don't mind, please make a new thread especially for this. And, if you want to use another translation, use the ESV (English Standard Version), currently the most accurate essentially literal translation on the market.[b said:
So, go at it -- each and every contradiction on the page.
I'd also like to point out that I am following this piece of scripture with my life:
2 Thessalonians 5:21 to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
I have not found Christianity to be good; it has not proven itself to me, no one has proven it to me, and I was unable to prove it to myself. Therefore, I discarded it.
2 Thessalonians 5:21 to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
I have not found Christianity to be good; it has not proven itself to me, no one has proven it to me, and I was unable to prove it to myself. Therefore, I discarded it.
TastyWheat
New Member
...That doesn't necessarily make it the best though. It's pretty hard to produce a literal, unidiomatic translation and still have it make sense. I know, I've tried[b said:
A ton of accusations, yet nothing to substantiate them. You hurl insults and claims, yet can never show why. What legitimacy is there in that. None. As for bringing people to Christ, that can only be done by God. Christian's are merely the people He uses to do His will. My words are not my own, I only write/say what is placed on my heart to do so. Go ahead, attack what I say, do, myself, whatever, in th e long run, it don't matter. I will stand firm in what I know to be true. I will defend it, I will fight for it, and if need be, die for it.
As for the KJV, it has additions to it. It was based off of later manuscripts, that now that older ones have been found, they have shown that there are a few slight additions to later copies, including the KJV. The more recently done versions, from the past century, are more accurate in that they only include what was originally written.
As for the KJV, it has additions to it. It was based off of later manuscripts, that now that older ones have been found, they have shown that there are a few slight additions to later copies, including the KJV. The more recently done versions, from the past century, are more accurate in that they only include what was originally written.
Grand Master
New Member
I think the "feeling" that any theist gets about a god is totally psychological; it is imagined and not real. It is like when you see a sad movie and you start feeling sad yourself. The movie is fictional, but you may still feel sad, even though you have no reason to feel that way. The emotion, however, is not genuine - it is based on something that isn't real. This is what a god is like - not real, but you still have this perception that somehow he is because you think you can "feel" god. Osama bin Laden claims to have a personal link with god, and look what god is telling him to do.[b said:
I, like Timor, have also found that my life has become better since I became an atheist. I used to always pray and wonder why the hell nothing was happening - it was frustrating. I'm not worried or anxious or guilt-ridden about "sinning" all the time. I'm not wasting time relying on some imaginery being's help. I get things done on my own, as I have always had to do, and my life is better for realizing that fact.
Lewanuva2003
New Member
Timor, can you tell us why you quit christianity?
Quit Christianity? lol, sorry, just had to laugh at your wording, it amused me. Like Christianity is a team, or a job, or something
Yes, I quit Christianity because I stopped believing and could not bare the fact that I was actually attempting to self-indoctrinate myself back into belief. I stopped believing because of my continual study of the Christian faith. While I know this is probably going to spark yet another tangential debate, these were the areas that dealt the most damaging blows: the Bible itself, history, logic and philosophy. Really, the Bible itself did it for me. Having been a biblical inerrantist, the more I really examined the Bible, the more contradictins and absurdities I saw. Studies of history dealt more blows to the Bible and my general belief, while an application of logic and philosophy to my Christian faith combined with the other two areas to deal a fatal blow.
It should be noted that I did not jump right to atheism. For about a month I was still a theist -- I had always closed my eyes to science which clashed with my worldview, for example, so I knew little about evolution and the like. Studies in science and continued study and application of logic and philosophy eventually led me to atheism. I have now been an atheist for...about 8 or 9 months now.
Yes, I quit Christianity because I stopped believing and could not bare the fact that I was actually attempting to self-indoctrinate myself back into belief. I stopped believing because of my continual study of the Christian faith. While I know this is probably going to spark yet another tangential debate, these were the areas that dealt the most damaging blows: the Bible itself, history, logic and philosophy. Really, the Bible itself did it for me. Having been a biblical inerrantist, the more I really examined the Bible, the more contradictins and absurdities I saw. Studies of history dealt more blows to the Bible and my general belief, while an application of logic and philosophy to my Christian faith combined with the other two areas to deal a fatal blow.
It should be noted that I did not jump right to atheism. For about a month I was still a theist -- I had always closed my eyes to science which clashed with my worldview, for example, so I knew little about evolution and the like. Studies in science and continued study and application of logic and philosophy eventually led me to atheism. I have now been an atheist for...about 8 or 9 months now.
Miscellaneous
New Member
First off, I know what an ad hominen is. I'm a philosophy major. We go over this stuff.[b said:
2nd, of course I quote the Bible to you, because my argument is based off of the Bible.
You are arguing things when the Bible says opposite, therefore already using what you told me i was using "circular logic." I don't understand exactly how you aren't seeing this. This debate is over ultimate authorities as i have pointed out before.
Let me give you an example, so maybe to help you understand clearer:
For you to say that you don't believe in God, is to already presuppose that the God of the Bible doesn't exist, becuase the Bible says that you do deep down believe in God, yet you supress it in unrighteousness. Therefore you are using "circular logic," as you termed it with me. And you then say that my logic is bad. I'm saying that these types of things happen because we have claims to opposing ultimate authorities, therefore whatever is built upon them is going to be developed in contrasting ideas, and our logic will seem circular, or intertwined, as an epistemology should be.
----
I raised objections to your worldview. You haven't attempted to answer them. You just assume that there is science in this world, and rationality, and logic, without knowing the basis for these things in your worldview. You say at the same time, "there is rationality," and then "there is no rationality."
Your problem is that you are living on blind faith. Atheism lives on blind faith.
By the way, I just put a lot of work into my arguments against your worldview, and for you to just throw them off as unnessessary is ridiculous, and a pretty insulting thing to do.
Please answer my arguments.
Miscellaneous
New Member
Science.[b said:
Rationality.
Logic.
Just to name a few.
Grand Master
New Member
Unfortunately, Timor doesn't have his own atheist Bible. If he did, he could just spit applesauce back and forth with you forever, Miscellaneous.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Here you go.[b said:
Miscellaneous
New Member
I'm only asking for a "philosophical account," if you will, of these things. I gave mine from the Bible. I believe the only consistent "philosophical account" of these things comes from the Bible. Therefore, I want Timor to give me what he thinks they are, and how they are.[b said:
Miscellaneous, can we agree on one thing? If God is the creator, then surely proof of both creator and creation should exist in the world and it's diverse parts OUTSIDE of the bible?
The bible is supposed to merely be a commentary on this creation, not the creation itself. The way you talk the bibe is the world, and the world merely a product of the bible.
I ask for this agreement because it's standard practice with me to discard the bible as a hopelessly corrupted and compromised piece of work. That might seem a little harsh to you, but the bible has been in the care of some VERY unworthy people - and they have already proven that they regarded NOTHING as sacred if it stood in the way of the dominion of the church in this world, rather than the next.
If you don't know what I mean, or don't agree - then I'll start up a seperate thread based on this point. I'd enjoy seeing if the Christian faith can survive outside of the petri dish of its scripture, and whether you guys would find yourself capable of recreating your faith from scratch based on observable phenomena and legend.
And then, I read that you were a Philosophy major - which means you're the kind of person to whom Schroedingers Cat is actually a question worth pondering!
Hence your belief that an Atheist is a person who bases his faith around the question of God whilst denying it - which you believe is like believing in the hole in the centre of a donut without believing in the donut itself, right? If you deny the donut then the hole ceases to exist - CANNOT exist. Since his view has just been proven as impossible, you believe that this makes your own (the opposite viewpoint) not only possible but definite.
However this belief is caused by your own tunnel vision. When he says god, you read God and you interpret this as Yahweh. In reality there are many, many Gods that an atheist can choose not to believe - so many in fact that he can choose not to believe in a Platonic Ideal of God. This does not demand the existence of a specific God in any way, and therefore removes the necessity for the existence of Yahweh for the validity of the Atheistic worldview. And THIS point opens up one of those holes I was talking about.
Eon
The bible is supposed to merely be a commentary on this creation, not the creation itself. The way you talk the bibe is the world, and the world merely a product of the bible.
I ask for this agreement because it's standard practice with me to discard the bible as a hopelessly corrupted and compromised piece of work. That might seem a little harsh to you, but the bible has been in the care of some VERY unworthy people - and they have already proven that they regarded NOTHING as sacred if it stood in the way of the dominion of the church in this world, rather than the next.
If you don't know what I mean, or don't agree - then I'll start up a seperate thread based on this point. I'd enjoy seeing if the Christian faith can survive outside of the petri dish of its scripture, and whether you guys would find yourself capable of recreating your faith from scratch based on observable phenomena and legend.
And then, I read that you were a Philosophy major - which means you're the kind of person to whom Schroedingers Cat is actually a question worth pondering!
Hence your belief that an Atheist is a person who bases his faith around the question of God whilst denying it - which you believe is like believing in the hole in the centre of a donut without believing in the donut itself, right? If you deny the donut then the hole ceases to exist - CANNOT exist. Since his view has just been proven as impossible, you believe that this makes your own (the opposite viewpoint) not only possible but definite.However this belief is caused by your own tunnel vision. When he says god, you read God and you interpret this as Yahweh. In reality there are many, many Gods that an atheist can choose not to believe - so many in fact that he can choose not to believe in a Platonic Ideal of God. This does not demand the existence of a specific God in any way, and therefore removes the necessity for the existence of Yahweh for the validity of the Atheistic worldview. And THIS point opens up one of those holes I was talking about.
Eon