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Dark Virtue

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I'd like to get your take on this web site that a Missionary Bible translator has made.

There is a LOT of information to go through, so please, don't post here until you have made a concerted effort to actually read what he has written.

It is heartfelt and contains a bevy of FACTUAL information.

I'd love to hear your responses.

http://www.geocities.com/kenandcharlene/ken.html
 
You tend to find what you look for. There isn't much more to say other then that. He went out looking for why he should reject the bible, and he found them. No big suprise.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 15 2004,8:33)]So are you saying that it is impossible to be objective about this subject?
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yes, If you believe and follow the bible it will only make sense in your heart. If you are looking for doubt , you have it. if you have faith you can move mountains

Christians,
witches
muslims
most everyone has this belief
if you have faith and believe in something hard enough it will come to pass
 
So you're guilty of exactly what Peon said, you're bringing your subjectivism into it, only when it suits your purpose, it's ok.

And Peon, you really didn't read that article if you believe he went out looking for flaws. The man spent his life serving God and translating the Bible. He had no reason to question God. What he did was find himself in a position where he could be honestly objective with his situation and his understanding.

If you damn him because of his subjectivism then I call you out as a hypocrite.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Sep. 15 2004,9:35)]Christians,
witches
muslims
most everyone has this belief
if you have faith and believe in something hard enough it will come to pass
Click to expand...
That makes no sense whatsoever.

Are you saying that if a witch has enough faith that her spells will actually start working?

If a Satanist has enough faith that Satan will have the power to overthrow God?

If you truly believe what you just said than you have effectively lowered Christianity to every other religion and cult out there. So how can a witch be wrong then? How can a Muslim be wrong?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If you damn him because of his subjectivism then I call you out as a hypocrite.
Click to expand...

Is this your form of logic? Apply it where its not required?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So are you saying that it is impossible to be objective about this subject?
Click to expand...

Now that I am done laughing at this statement, I'll tell you whats wrong with it. Freethinkers, like yourself don't believe in absolutes, which is required in objectivity. You ultimately believe that what is right for me is not necessarily right for anybody else, thus gives rise to relativisms. Which, is hardly objective at all. Its impossible to bring objectiveness to a subject when everybody at the table is far from being objective. Conclusions have been reached and all we search for is evidence to support our conclusions.

This Ken Daniels, concluded he couldn't believe in the God of the bible and this website of his documents his search for evidence to support it. He claims to believe in God quite avemantly, especially after reading Darwins Black Box and determining in his own mind the falicies of naturalism and evolution, he simply doesn't beleive in the God of the bible.

He has lots of references to biblical verses he has problems with, maybe listing in the hundreds, but, too rarely does he hive any reason for his doubts and we are supposed to take his word for it. He documents his search for answers amongst men. And amongst and in men, he finds doubts and reason to reject the God of the bible. Maybe, he shouldn't have been searching for the Crown Jewels of England in Argentina (figuratively).
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Now that I am done laughing at this statement, I'll tell you whats wrong with it. Freethinkers, like yourself don't believe in absolutes, which is required in objectivity. You ultimately believe that what is right for me is not necessarily right for anybody else, thus gives rise to relativisms. Which, is hardly objective at all. Its impossible to bring objectiveness to a subject when everybody at the table is far from being objective. Conclusions have been reached and all we search for is evidence to support our conclusions.
Click to expand...

Can't you just as easily say that Christians aren't objective? They believe they are right and (literally) damn the rest. I ask you again, since you avoided the question, IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE OBJECTIVE ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF GOD AND THE DIVINITY OF THE BIBLE? You accuse freethinkers of carrying this burden of skepticism, that it doesn't allow them to be objective. I say that you carry Faith as a shield and that disallows your objectivism. Can you be objective about this subject?
 
I once thought it was possible, but now I find it is not possible. It is impossible to be objective, regardless of who you are. And I already mentioned that.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Can't you just as easily say that Christians aren't objective?
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Lets look at my quote again, because you used it, obviously doesn't mean you read it:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Its impossible to bring objectiveness to a subject when everybody at the table is far from being objective.
Click to expand...

If you missed that obvious statement, doesn't it make you wonder, how much other stuff you have missed?
 
Yes, I read it and understood it. Many people have a problem with pointing faults at themselves, which is why I asked for clarification about your personal objectivism.

If I may ask, why do you think it is impossible to be objective? For anyone to be objective for that matter. And if that is truly the case, how are we to know if we are truly being honest with ourselves and our beliefs if we can't step back and take an objective look them?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 15 2004,9:46)]So you're guilty of exactly what Peon said, you're bringing your subjectivism into it, only when it suits your purpose, it's ok.

And Peon, you really didn't read that article if you believe he went out looking for flaws.  The man spent his life serving God and translating the Bible.  He had no reason to question God.  What he did was find himself in a position where he could be honestly objective with his situation and his understanding.

If you damn him because of his subjectivism then I call you out as a hypocrite.
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Am I, I truly believe no one is objective. We are all leaning to something. So I guess I am. Funny how life works.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If I may ask, why do you think it is impossible to be objective? For anyone to be objective for that matter. And if that is truly the case, how are we to know if we are truly being honest with ourselves and our beliefs if we can't step back and take an objective look them?
Click to expand...

It is impossible to be objective, because no matter how hard we try to take off our own personal Rose coloured glasses, their influence remains to guide our decisions.

Thats it in a jist, and because I am at work, I don't have much time to get further into it.
 
Well I appreciate your answer nonetheless. I would, however, be interested in your answer in greater detail. Because herein lies a grave danger: how do we view our beliefs objectively?
 
In order to objectively view your beliefs, you must compare it to a standard. If there is no standard, there is no objectivity. But, in comparing my beliefs to a standard, it is not I who is objective, rather, it would be the standard.

I call myself a Christian and I hold my standard as the Bible. People who know me (and people here may have glimpses but you don't get to know people over the internet, so nobody here knows me) can and do measure me against my choosen standard, and they can say, that I am indeed a Christian. So, in measuring up to the standard, I can at least say that I am a Christian. But is Christianity right?

All I have are personal experiences. All other people have are, personal experiences. My personal experiences all the confirm the bible, others reject. The funny thing in my life is, when I started, I tested to confirm my faith and found evidence. Am I to now try and find evidence to reject my faith? The problem is, no matter what I do, all I ever do is confirm it. If I put all my trust in the Lord, all my problems work out. If I try and do it myself, my problems get worse. Even if I try and reject my faith , I have found that all I do is confirm it. But, my personal experiences are totally subjective, aren't they?
 
I don't think most people who turn from Christianity or religion in general, don't actively choose to reject their faith.  In my personal experience it was a slow process, a gradual awakening if you will.  My faith was gradually being replaced by reason and evidence.  I like to think there was a point where my belief system was in a perfect balance of belief and doubt, a time when I could be truly objective.  I think most of us get to that point.  And then something tips us to one direction and the balance is irrevocable.  You and I went to either side, and if I understand this correctly, from the polar opposite side.  I went from believer to nontheist, you went from nontheist to believer.  The question others ask of us is did we make the right decision.  And of course, we both believe that we did.  Unfortunately, we can't both be right.
 
So what do we do about that?

We run around in circles firing potshots from our opposite positions hoping for what? To convince the other person? To satisfy our own needs for being right?

I'll tell you why I do it. Not necessarily to prove the other person wrong, faith is a tough shield to crack after all. I do it for those people who have never thought to question anything about their belief, to get them to look at what they have taken for granted for so long and to question if they actually believe what they have been spoonfed for so long.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I'll tell you why I do it. Not necessarily to prove the other person wrong, faith is a tough shield to crack after all. I do it for those people who have never thought to question anything about their belief, to get them to look at what they have taken for granted for so long and to question if they actually believe what they have been spoonfed for so long.
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And again, you give people less credit then they deserve. Because you felt spoonfed doesn't mean everybody else was or is, or will be.
 
You're right, I do and that is wrong of me.

But that is from MY past experiences of Bible thumping holier than thous who really have no clue what they're talking about.

I'm working on it though, just have some patience
smile.gif
 
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