How did you ascertain your faith?

Thank you for your heartfelt response.

Your words meant something, but sadly I cannot change my views at a snap. I still have personal doubts and feelings. And a personal experience that ran me off the rails of faith altogether.

The idea of faith is tempting. The comradeship you seemed to be getting at, with God and fellow Christians sounded like a good thing; but if I was to be honest with myself, I could not allow myself to change unless I felt I really had a calling. Many Christians on this site say they have had a 'calling' and I supose only they each know their own calling.

Thank you anyway.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mr.Bill @ Sep. 06 2004,10:41)]Are you predestined?
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Yes I am.

Ephesians 1
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the "faithful in Christ Jesus:"
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world", that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having "predestinated us" unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being "predestinated" according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 
Actually predestination doesn't insure your salvation. It's rejecting Christ as your savior by not accepting Him for who He is.
Your predestined to be in this forum and it's your decision to believe the way you do and it's my decision to believe the way I do. It's like I was predestinated to be in church one day but I didn't accept Christ. If my predestined time of my death had come before I finally accepted Christ then I would be in hell. But praise God that my time wasn't up and that he predestinated a christian man in my pathway home from work one day and that led to my salvation through Christ. If Carmen hadn't listened to God and asked me "Percy are you saved" then my salvation wouldn't have happened. My reply was "No ,Carmen I'm not" ,Carmens' reply was "How Sad." Two words changed my life forever. I wasn't looking for God or salvation but Christ found me that day some 24 years ago driving home from work. My life surely hasn't been a bed of roses since that day but God still loves me when I mess up and the Holy Spirit will let you know when you do. But though trials and tribulations it makes me stronger as a Christian.
You are searching for answers that only God and you can sort out together because He loves you and He cares for you. Man isn't meant for hell , it was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS:

We may not understand why things happen or why we are here in this forum but God knows. For his thoughts and purpose are far beyond my understanding but I know He exists within my heart and soul. Especially when the holy spirit visits my soul and blesses me.

Isa 55:6 Seek ye Jehovah while he may be found; call ye upon him while he is near:
Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto Jehovah, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
C.S.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 05 2004,7:07)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Haven't I already proved that nowhere in the Bible does it say that nonbelievers will spend an enternity in a lake of fire?
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Hmm..you need to spend more time in Revelations then.

Revelations 13:8
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]8.  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
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Revelations 19:20-21
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] 20.  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21.  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
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All of Revelations chapter 20.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Revelation 20

1.  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2.  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3.  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4.  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5.  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6.  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7.  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8.  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9.  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10.  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11.  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12.  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13.  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14.  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15.  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Pay attention to that last part DV, whosoever was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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I think YOU need to look at Revelations closer.

First, notice what I said,

Haven't I already proved that nowhere in the Bible does it say that nonbelievers will spend an enternity in a lake of fire?

Look at verse 10, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The devil will be tormented forever.  DEVIL.

Now verse 15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

To be tormented day and night forever and ever?  Sorry, but it does not say that.

Please note what for ever and ever means as well, "Does "forever" always mean never ending? No. In the Bible, "for ever" is used where it has the meaning of lasting only as long as the duration of the event or as long as the man lives. Jonah calls "three days and three nights", "forever" (Jonah 1:17; 2:6). Hannah clearly explains what she means by the term "forever" when she says in verse 28, "as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord" (1 Sam. 1:22,28). Here "forever" is "ten generations" (Deut. 23:3). "Forever" obviously is as long as David lived (1 Chron. 28:4). Leprosy lasted for Gehazi as long as he lived (2 Kings 5:27). It’s apparent that the meaning of the word is determined by the context in which it is used (Exo. 21:5-6, Deut. 15:16-17, Philem. 1:10,11,15). Revelation 20:10 can agree with Ezekiel 28:18 by interpreting "for ever" as meaning "as long as they last in the fire or until the fire has burned them up completely." This is a good example of letting scripture interpret itself...Now these words are applied to God and the soul's happiness. They are words that in the Bible are never applied to punishment or anything perishable. They would have been affixed to punishment had the Bible intended to teach endless punishment. And certainly they show the error of those who declare that the indefinite word aionion is all the word, or the strongest one in the Bible, declarative of the endlessness of life beyond the grave."

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I must have missed the whole thread about there not being a lake of fire....Where might I find this thread?
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Whoa, please don't twist my words or make assumptions.  I didn't say that a lake of fire didn't exist.  I said that we wouldn't burn eternally.  

I'm not sure which thread it was in, but I'm sure you can do a search to find it.
 
If predestination doesn't ensure salvation, then what's the point of predestination?

Everyone may as well be predestinated according to your argument.

The problem with this "predestination" is that if this is true, why even give us Free Will?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Now verse 15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

To be tormented day and night forever and ever? Sorry, but it does not say that.
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So the false prophet, the beast and the devil will be tormented forever, yet all unbelievers who are cast into the same lake of fire won't be. That is being mighty presumptious isn't it?



The word used in Revelations is ainon. The word used in Jonah, chapter 2 and 1 Sam 1:22 is 'owlam. One is Greek, the other is Hebrew. Where ever you cut and pasted that from does not seem to take that fact into consideration. Not the same words, not the exact same meaning.


Now assuming you are right and nonbelievers do not spend eternity in this lake of fire, how long will they spend? Are you assuming that the soul will eventually cease to exist? The Bible clearly does not say that there is any amount of time that will be spent there, only that those not in the book of life will be cast there.

I assume that nonbelievers will spend the same amount of time in the lake of fire as satan, the beast and false prophet, what is written to lead me to believe otherwise?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] 7. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
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Regardless of it being an eternity in the lake of fire or just an eternal seperation from God, Eternity will suck for those who do not believe.

Cory
 
Really, its a case of people who don't want to accept the responsibility of their choices using how words are used in colliquisms to determine a definition that works for them.  It is the ultimate case of taking things out of context to appease their minds.  At least, they can say to themselves, I may be going to hell, but I won't be spending eternity there.  I suppose this new religion of theirs gives them comfort.
 
Please, take a look at the link for yourself:  http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/hell.html

Also note that the site is not an "athiest" site, so give me bonus points for that :p

And Peon, how am I not taking responsibilities for my actions?  If I believed I was going to hell, even in the slightest, I would work towards NOT going there.  You can't even tell me what hell is, you can't tell me what heaven is, so stop being so caustic.
 
Ah, and one last thing about Pharaoh you might find intersting:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Who hardened Pharaoh's heart?
It is well known that God caused Pharaoh to disobey his command. When God, through Moses, ordered Pharaoh to release the Hebrew slaves, he did not listen or obey because "The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Exodus 9:12; cf. 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:8).
Some have questioned the example of Pharaoh because, in the first instances of Pharaoh's hardening, the Bible says that Pharaoh "hardened his [own] heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said" (Exodus 8:15). This has led some people to claim that only after Pharaoh hardened himself did God begin to harden him.

God hardening Pharoah's heart and Pharoah hardening his own heart were one and the same. In Exodus 8:15, Pharoah hardened his own heart, "just as the Lord had said." That refers to what the Lord had said to Moses earlier in Exodus. "When you [Moses] return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I [God] have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." (Ex. 4:21)

In other words, when men harden their own hearts, it is God who causes them to become hard. I say this because God takes credit when it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart. This is shown perhaps most clearly in the following passage:

When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had said through Moses. Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord." (Exodus 9:34-10:2)
Notice the beginning of the passage: "[Pharaoh] and his officials hardened their hearts," and it says that they "sinned" by doing so. But later the same passage tells us that God had hardened their hearts (10:1)! So we see that when the Bible says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, God caused even this action. When God hardens a man's heart, that man infallibly hardens his own heart. When the Bible speaks of men hardening their hearts it is apparently the way of observing God's actions from a strictly human perspective. While men go about making their decisions, behind each rebellious choice stands the decree of God.
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LINK
 
I find it to be pretty scary. I'm surprised there are still people who believe in his teachings..I guess I'm just naive.
 
I stand corrected with predestination. Maybe what I should say is whatever is in God's will and God's purpose. There is one thing though that for sure you are predestined to do:
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven and [things] on earth and [things] under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. CS
 
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