Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah to you!

Firstly, thanks for the bit of scripture about the tree decorating DV. In my journey from a southern baptist church to a messianic congregation I have learned many many things that turn "mainstream" christianity on its ear. You would be amazed at the things you can learn from a Jewish believer. They have a whole other view of things that is most times totally opposite to our own. We find these things hard to accept because they go against what we grew up around and our traditions we have come to embrace. However when God gives a law and tells the people to live by it, He means it. Most of the time becuase the law he gave covers some facet of the main 10 commandments that were given. An example would be this: Dont put up a tree and decorate it. Ok why? Well by doing that it goes against Gods commandment to not have any false gods or idols before Him. Dont put up a tree in remembrance of Him, when the root of this tree is clearly pagan. The hardest thing for people to come to terms with is breaking traditions. Most of the time these are started out of ignorance and then continue out of fondness. Everybody loves to make and eat christmas cookies, but they are still just cookies that can be made any time of the year. But its the tradition of making them around christmas that is what people like and love. If we as hardcore christians were to celebrate Gods holy days, we would be following the feasts that Jesus followed. There is a good article again from the www.khouse.org website that ill post a link to here.
The "New Testament" Holiday
Things have to be taken as baby steps when it comes to changing traditions. If you try to change things over you cant do it all at once, most of the time anyways, or youll miss it too much and switch right back to the old ways. Moving on to a rabbit track, I doubt there will be christmas trees in heaven or yule logs and DEFINETLY NO HAM! As for me and my family, its an interesting time as we seek God's truth in this season. Things are changing and its never easy, but I seek to keep God as the center and do His will.
Merry Christmas and for me this year we are adding Happy Hanukkah!
May the Lord Bless you and yours!
 
HERE HERE!

VERY nice post.

I can't do more than simply reiterate what Arkanjel said:

The hardest thing for people to come to terms with is breaking traditions. Most of the time these are started out of ignorance and then continue out of fondness. Everybody loves to make and eat christmas cookies, but they are still just cookies that can be made any time of the year. But its the tradition of making them around christmas that is what people like and love. If we as hardcore christians were to celebrate Gods holy days, we would be following the feasts that Jesus followed.
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Were I to become a Christian again, I could not, in good conscience and with intellectual honesty, celebrate Easter or Christmas. As you said, I would once again (because I did as a Christian) celebrate those days that God set forth in the Bible. This includes the 4th commandment, to REMEMBER the Sabbath day (SATURDAY) and keep it HOLY.
 
ChickenSoup said:
As a poster once said... "I'm not gonna take your bait dv":)
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That's ok, whenever I read that I translate it to mean, "Good point DV, you and I both know you're right, so I'm not going to respond to what you wrote because it would only prove that I'm wrong" :)

Anywho... where in the Bible did Christ say not to celebrate his birth?
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Nice way of twisting what I said. Scroll up. What I actually said was, "Where in the Bible did Christ say to celebrate his birth?" NOT where does it say NOT to celebrate his birth.

And about the "my actions say otherwise," I'm sorry if I give/recieve gifts and put up Christmas lights, celebrate Christ's birth, etc... obviously I'm a pagan. :eek: :rolleyes:
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Once again, you are twisting my words. I did not say it made you a pagan, I simply said you were participating in pagan rituals. The last time I checked, Christians shouldn't participate in anything pagan. Am I right? Or IS it ok to participate in pagan rituals? Maybe that's where I'm wrong.

And about the rituals being pagan: I'm missing something (i.e. my history lessons) but, if you had the patience for a person who doesn't research that kind of thing, where in history did the pagans set up a tree? Thank you.
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I would be more than happy to give you that information...but do I really need to? Did you somehow skip the verse I posted?

Jeremiah 10:2-4
New International Version (NIV)

2 This is what the LORD says:
"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
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God said it is bad, END OF STORY. Why isn't that enough for you?
 
Dark Virtue said:
I saved this one for last since the practice of decorating trees is actually called out in the Bible:
Jeremiah 10:2-4
New International Version (NIV)

2 This is what the LORD says:
"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

How can you, as a Christian, validate having a Christmas tree in light of those verses?
Arkangel said:
Firstly, thanks for the bit of scripture about the tree decorating DV. In my journey from a southern baptist church to a messianic congregation I have learned many many things that turn "mainstream" christianity on its ear.
I thought I would add some of my thoughts to this now that we have a Christian involved...

Those verses are being taken completely out of context. They are talking about carving idols from trees. Notice the talk of a craftsman shaping it with a chisel. Then the use of silver and gold to adorn the idol. Every Christian out there would agree that fashioning an idol from wood or any other material for the use of worshiping it is blasphemous.

Noone I know worships their Christmas tree or thinks of it as a god. I'm not arguing here that everyone should have one or that the Bible says we should. My point is that the above scripture is being used out of context for this discussion.

I will add a little analogy here:

I have long wanted to build a brick or stone grill in my backyard. I enjoy BBQ and grilling. Lets say that next summer I actually get around to it. I can cook on that grill all I like and enjoy the good foods that God has provided us without ever being accused of anything sinful (other than the possible weight gain involved:) ). I think that most of you would agree with this.

However, what if I used the grill as an alter to sacrifice meat to a false god? At this point my 'grill' has become an alter and is a very sinful thing. End analogy.

Now I could perhaps understand an argument that you should not have a Christmas tree if it is a stumbling block to an immature Christian.

Arkangel I see nothing wrong with celebrating Gods holy days:) I think it's great that you do this and I am looking more into that part of scripture myself.

The argument made by some that Christians should not celebrate Christmas because it was not done in the Bible is wrong. Christmas was most assuredly celebrated in the Bible. It was celebrated by hosts of angels, shepherds glorified and praised God, and wise men travelled many miles to celebrate the birth of the Christ child.

Will a Christian be rewarded in heaven for celebrating Christmas? Probably not. Will a Christian be judged as having sinned for celebrating Chistmas? Nope!

Keep Christ at the center of your Christmas celebrations. Praise God for his gift to men. Glorify God for loving us enough to send His only Son to die for our transgressions. The reason for the season is not just Christ's birth. It is a celebration of God's great love and His awesome plan that was completed in Christ's sacrifice and resurrection.

Don't get too caught up in the secular commercial 'holiday season'.

Praise God!

Merry Christmas.
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Don't get too caught up in the secular commercial 'holiday season'.
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I don't think the secular portion is the problem. It's the pagan portion that makes up 95% of Christmas that we're referring to.

What do any of the things I've mentioned, any of the trappings of Christmas actually have to do with Christ? None of it!
 
Sorry, can't edit my last post...

Didasko, you are absolutely correct about the idol reference.

I ask that you look at the first part of the verses:
"2 This is what the LORD says:
"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless"

This is exactly what Christmas is, it is the embrace of pagan, wordly customs.

Secondly, I would like you to look at CARM's definition of idol, "Idolatry is bowing down before such an idol in adoration, prayer, or worship. In a loose sense, idolatry does not necessitate a material image or a religious system. It can be anything that takes the place of God: a car, a job, money, a person, a desire, etc."

Again, this can easily be attributed to the trappings of Christmas, including the tree.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Sorry, can't edit my last post...

Didasko, you are absolutely correct about the idol reference.

I ask that you look at the first part of the verses:
"2 This is what the LORD says:
"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless"

This is exactly what Christmas is, it is the embrace of pagan, wordly customs.

Secondly, I would like you to look at CARM's definition of idol, "Idolatry is bowing down before such an idol in adoration, prayer, or worship. In a loose sense, idolatry does not necessitate a material image or a religious system. It can be anything that takes the place of God: a car, a job, money, a person, a desire, etc."

Again, this can easily be attributed to the trappings of Christmas, including the tree.
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Your right about idols being anything that takes the place of God. If trees are an idol to you then I would recommend you not have one.

For me a tree is not taking the place of God and I do not bow down to it.



Worldly 'proof' and 'reason' can be an idol too you know:)
 
Didasko said:
Your right about idols being anything that takes the place of God. If trees are an idol to you then I would recommend you not have one.

For me a tree is not taking the place of God and I do not bow down to it.
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You don't have to bow down to it for it to take the place of God. Just look at all the trappings of Christmas. The majority of them fall under the definition of "idol" as they have pushed God out of the picture and replaced them with pagan items. You have "learned the ways of the nations" and now defend them, these worthless customs of the people.

Looks pretty clear cut to me.

Worldly 'proof' and 'reason' can be an idol too you know:)
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Absolutely, as can anything. However, since you are imply they are my idols, I would point out that I do not worship them. Proof and reason are tools to be used, not imaginary beings to worship.
 
Dark Virtue said:
You don't have to bow down to it for it to take the place of God. Just look at all the trappings of Christmas. The majority of them fall under the definition of "idol" as they have pushed God out of the picture and replaced them with pagan items. You have "learned the ways of the nations" and now defend them, these worthless customs of the people.
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You only seem to notice the parts of what I write that suit you best. The 'I don't bow down to it' was an insignificant part of my post. I also said that the tree does not take the place of God for me, so your argument is moot unless you can prove that the tree is an idol to me.

It is most assuredly not!

And you'll be happy to know that we're not having ham for Christmas this year:) Of course my wifes dinner plans had nothing to do with this forum, because I did not discuss it with her...
 
Didasko said:
You only seem to notice the parts of what I write that suit you best. The 'I don't bow down to it' was an insignificant part of my post. I also said that the tree does not take the place of God for me, so your argument is moot unless you can prove that the tree is an idol to me.
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Didn't I agree with you on the idol part? This discussion isn't aimed at you alone, I am talking about Christianity in gernal.

It is most assuredly not!
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You are thinking about the term "idol" in one way and one way only. As I spelled it out in my last post, it most assuredly is.

And you'll be happy to know that we're not having ham for Christmas this year:) Of course my wifes dinner plans had nothing to do with this forum, because I did not discuss it with her...
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Well that was one down, let's take a look at the rest of the list :)
 
IceBladePOD said:
Have you read Romans 14?
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Would you mind explaining why Christ kept the holy days and followed all of God's commands? With that in mind, aren't Christians supposed to follow his example?

The letter of the law may not be a necessity, but what about the spirit of the law?
 
Well, as the spirit of the law was to stop people from getting food poisoning, then so long as you don't eat Pork that's beyond it's "Best Before" date, you're obeying the law of Yahweh.

I bet it was murder keeping pork sanitary in the Middle East with no proper chilling.
 
Eon said:
I bet it was murder keeping pork sanitary in the Middle East with no proper chilling.
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Thats why you cure pork with lots and lots of salt, so it doesnt go bad. However Im pretty sure that it didnt matter since nobody ate the pigs except those who were not Jewish. Muslims also refer to the pig as an unclean animal and will have nothing to do with it. Ive heard it said that in order to fight the swine in Israel you use swine. In other words since muslims believe that they will go to hell if they come in contact with pork at the time of death, the best way to prevent the suicide bombings is to hang bags of pig lard in the buses and other prime target areas. Imagine how quickly they would stop the bombings if right as one pushed the button on their bomb, they realized they were surrounded by bags of pig lard. Anybody remember the story of Jesus casting out the legion of demons from the man in the hills? Remember where those demons went after being cast out? Thats right, a herd of swine. I dont think thats its any coincidence that the demons went there. The pig is considered unclean and that was a symbolic gesture confirming such. As far as Romans 14 goes, I believe that this was an effort to help ease people out of there wordly habits. When someone becomes a Christian they dont immediately stop doing everything that is wrong, it is a process that takes time and requires the Ruach HaKodesh (Spirit of God) to reveal to you the error of your ways. To follow Christ in its purest form is to do EVERYTHING that He did. Not just pick what suits you. Christ came to this earth because we needed Him to, we are a fallen race that was in need of redemption. God made His law such that only one man would be able to follow it and that person was Him. When you become "saved" "redeemed" "purchased with His blood" you become a follower of Christ. In obediance to following Christ you follow the laws of God. Let me clarify my statement so as not to be misunderstood. You follow the laws of God BECAUSE you are redeemed and out of obediance. You DO NOT follow the laws in order to gain redemption. In case you want to read some interesting books that can explain things to a little better here is a link.

Jesus Didnt Have Blue Eyes & Paul Didn't Eat Pork
 
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