Evidence VS Faith

[Dark Virtue]

I've made a point of stating that I am an atheist because I lack evidence or proof to substantiate a belief in God. That is usually countered by people offering their personal experiences as proof.

I think I may have been barking up the wrong tree though.

If you are supposed to believe in God WITHOUT evidence, using Faith instead, then is it wrong to ask for evidence? As a Christian, did you believe in God before or after you received your evidence? If you have incontrovertible proof that God exists, as several of you have stated, then doesn't that negate faith?

If you don't have proof, then how do you substantiate your belief based solely on faith? That sounds dangerously close to believing in something because you WANT it to be, and not basing it on anything reasonable.

Which leads me to my next question...Is Faith reasonable?

 

[Master~Plan]

That is usually countered by people offering their personal experiences as proof.

If you are supposed to believe in God WITHOUT evidence, using Faith instead, then is it wrong to ask for evidence? As a Christian, did you believe in God before or after you received your evidence? If you have incontrovertible proof that God exists, as several of you have stated, then doesn't that negate faith?

For me I believed in God before I had substantial evidence. I believed in God because I "WANTED" to. (you read right )I had the faith of a child (and I was a child). As I matured so did my faith. As I continued to look for God, slowly He revealed Himself more and more forever changing my life. The faith of my childhood has been confirmed time and time again. I know God. Now, my faith would more accuratley be described as faith in God to back me up and hear me, as opposed to the simple faith of His existence. I looked for God and I found him. If I didn't believe in God, I would have never looked...

^Looks like you just summed up the heart of all your posts in this thread. I guess its ironic how people look at the same objects in this world and see different things.

 

[Marcylene]

We know that:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

And we know that God gives each of us a measure of faith to believe:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20


But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Galatians 3:11

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

I once heard a preacher explain that this Abba, is literally interpreted as dada! He wants us to come to Him on a very personal level. Therefore, I don't think it is wrong to seek Him for evidence, I strongly feel that He will grant that on a very personal level. Also in this verse we are called the adopted. I find it interesting until only the past couple of months and never before in history were adoptive parents allowed to disown their adopted children. Those children always had rights with the adoptive parents. By God's choice, those who come to Him and accept Him by faith, are chosen by Him. He desires to give us good things, even the evidence you seek, perhaps on His terms. I know you feel that you have not had that evidence up to this point, but it ain't over till it's over

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:15

I believe each persons experience with God is as individual as that person. He will woo each of us on our own level. I knew there was a God from a very early age. While I was not part of a home that worshiped God, I somehow knew and would often think of how lonely God must have been before He created the world. For me, a knowledge of Him came first.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Our incontrovertible proof that God exists simply comes from a growth and outpouring of faith, answered prayers, and a heart knowledge. Nevertheless, these are still based on faith.

Don't we have faith and hope for many things in our lives? It seems that it is a part of our being, some albeit unconsciously. Considering that God is the Creator of the Universe and full of Love for us, it would seem unreasonable not to have faith in Him.

You state that this comes dangerously close to what we want to believe. I feel that if we are honest with ourselves, we are only human and have had thoughts no different from your own at some point in time. I think we all want to think that we are all right and good on our own. This faith is also arrived at by humbling ourselves before Him and knowing that we could never measure up to the law. Therefore, we accept, by faith, the Grace of God through Jesus.

Lastly, for me, is seeing devout elderly Christians. While it continues to be faith that God exists, seeing their lives and the difference God has made in every area strengthens my faith. They just simply have something more, an evidence of things not seen!

 

[MeridianFlight]

Did you know that your question applies to you as well?

It's a two way street. You don't see enough evidence to validate the presence of God, at least the Christian God. However, there isn't enough evidence to invalidate His presence either.

There isn't sufficient evidence to prove God is dead.

There isn't sufficient evidence to prove that everything in the Bible did not occur. You can cite as many "Biblical Contradictions" as you want, but there's a plausible explanation for many of them. If there isn't, it doesn't mean one can't be arrived at in the future should our current grasp of the language Scripture was written in evolve (these are dead languages after all). You can quote whoever you'd like on the improbability of a mass exodus out of Egypt, but who is to say this isn't another Nineveh?

So, you can stand on the other side of the fence as a "weak atheist" citing your perceived lack of evidence, but you have no evidence to support your own position. You take it on faith that Christianity is wrong. You take it on faith that Jesus is not who Scripture claims he is. You take it on faith that the Christian God doesn't exist, because you can't provide "incontrovertible proof" of this.

Is faith reasonable? For many it is, especially when they see their faith justified. How do you define justified? Like just about everything else, it's entirely subjective.

Alright, now, DV, is faith reasonable?

 

[Arkanjel]

Do you have faith your brakes are going to stop your car everytime you use them? Of course you do because you've seen how they work. Do you have faith that everytime you flick the light switch the light will come on? Of course you do because you know there are wires running behind the wall carrying the electricty. Do I have faith that Jesus is who he said he was? Of course I do because I have seen it proven many many times throughout the Bible. Thomas needed proof when he saw Jesus after he was resurrected. Thankfully Jesus obliged because he understands that human nature is some of us need proof to have a belief. So in a way I guess, we first need a bit of proof to show us God is real. After we have been shown that truth, then the faith comes into play by us having faith that God will do what He said He will do. I dont pretend for it to make sense, because God does things His way and its not for us to decide why. Im just trying to explain it the way I understand it. I hope this helps.

 

[Marcylene]

The bottom line is that it is all about faith! I don't think there are many Christians who have gone even a few steps in their walk with God that do not yearn to see Him and fellowship with Him face to face. The evidence of things not seen can be a heart conviction, for regardless of the experience, and the more we delve into the Bible and hold fast to the promises therein, it is all faith, until we see Him face to face, is it not?

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. I Corinthians 13: 12, 13

I think our best "evidence" of God is the Bible. Books come and go, and I don't think there is any other that has gone through such fiery trials, yet it remains the best seller of all time!

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

http://www.ipl.org/div/farq/bestsellerFARQ.html

Nevertheless, it takes faith to believe!

 

[Dark Virtue]

For me I believed in God before I had substantial evidence. I believed in God because I "WANTED" to. (you read right )I had the faith of a child (and I was a child). As I matured so did my faith. As I continued to look for God, slowly He revealed Himself more and more forever changing my life. The faith of my childhood has been confirmed time and time again. I know God. Now, my faith would more accuratley be described as faith in God to back me up and hear me, as opposed to the simple faith of His existence. I looked for God and I found him. If I didn't believe in God, I would have never looked...

^Looks like you just summed up the heart of all your posts in this thread. I guess its ironic how people look at the same objects in this world and see different things.

Can you explain how faith matures or evolves?

 

[Dark Virtue]

I believe each persons experience with God is as individual as that person. He will woo each of us on our own level.

How do you know this? I ask because, I, and many like me, don't believe we were "wooed" at all.

I knew there was a God from a very early age. While I was not part of a home that worshiped God, I somehow knew and would often think of how lonely God must have been before He created the world. For me, a knowledge of Him came first.

I noticed you said "A" God and not "THE" God. How did you KNOW there was a god?

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Our incontrovertible proof that God exists simply comes from a growth and outpouring of faith, answered prayers, and a heart knowledge. Nevertheless, these are still based on faith.

ARGH! Circular reasoning...like garlic to a vampire.

Don't we have faith and hope for many things in our lives? It seems that it is a part of our being, some albeit unconsciously. Considering that God is the Creator of the Universe and full of Love for us, it would seem unreasonable not to have faith in Him.

Come, come now. How many times must I point out that there is a difference between faith and Faith? You are correct, in a very misleading sort of way. It would, indeed, be very unreasonable not to have faith in God were God a known being. That's not my point. My point is whether or not it's reasonable to believe in the existence of God.

You state that this comes dangerously close to what we want to believe. I feel that if we are honest with ourselves, we are only human and have had thoughts no different from your own at some point in time. I think we all want to think that we are all right and good on our own. This faith is also arrived at by humbling ourselves before Him and knowing that we could never measure up to the law. Therefore, we accept, by faith, the Grace of God through Jesus.

You pointed out the problem but didn't address it. Does WANT/NEED lead one to believe in God? I don't know how to ask it any simpler.

Lastly, for me, is seeing devout elderly Christians. While it continues to be faith that God exists, seeing their lives and the difference God has made in every area strengthens my faith. They just simply have something more, an evidence of things not seen!

What do you think about elderly old atheists? Elderly old Buddhists? Muslims?

What is this thing you believe elderly Christians have more of that nonChristians do not?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Did you know that your question applies to you as well?

Absolutely.

It's a two way street. You don't see enough evidence to validate the presence of God, at least the Christian God. However, there isn't enough evidence to invalidate His presence either.

How many times do we have to go over the same arguments. Imagine if I constantly chided you for praying to the Virgin Mary or to the saints. You'd protest, wouldn't you? Sure, on a basic level, Catholics are Christians, but that doesn't mean all Christians are Catholic. The same goes with your argument. Not all Atheists are strong atheists. I have never, EVER claimed that I had evidence to invalidate the existence of God.

There isn't sufficient evidence to prove God is dead.

When have I ever claimed that?

There isn't sufficient evidence to prove that everything in the Bible did not occur. You can cite as many "Biblical Contradictions" as you want, but there's a plausible explanation for many of them. If there isn't, it doesn't mean one can't be arrived at in the future should our current grasp of the language Scripture was written in evolve (these are dead languages after all). You can quote whoever you'd like on the improbability of a mass exodus out of Egypt, but who is to say this isn't another Nineveh?

As you said, this is a two way street. The burden of proof is on the one stating the positive. YOU claim God exists, yet there isn't sufficient evidence to justify his existence. That is PRECISELY why I do not state that God does not exist, because I can't prove that, just as you can't prove he exists.

So, you can stand on the other side of the fence as a "weak atheist" citing your perceived lack of evidence, but you have no evidence to support your own position. You take it on faith that Christianity is wrong. You take it on faith that Jesus is not who Scripture claims he is. You take it on faith that the Christian God doesn't exist, because you can't provide "incontrovertible proof" of this.

I believe I have caught you in a factual error. You call me a "weak atheist", but everything you have said paints me as a strong atheist. You sir, are in error, and using that as the foundation of your argument has destroyed its validity.

Is faith reasonable? For many it is, especially when they see their faith justified. How do you define justified? Like just about everything else, it's entirely subjective.

Alright, now, DV, is faith reasonable?

I think you already know that I don't believe that basing one's belief in gods based on Faith is reasonable.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Do you have faith your brakes are going to stop your car everytime you use them? Of course you do because you've seen how they work. Do you have faith that everytime you flick the light switch the light will come on? Of course you do because you know there are wires running behind the wall carrying the electricty. Do I have faith that Jesus is who he said he was? Of course I do because I have seen it proven many many times throughout the Bible. Thomas needed proof when he saw Jesus after he was resurrected. Thankfully Jesus obliged because he understands that human nature is some of us need proof to have a belief. So in a way I guess, we first need a bit of proof to show us God is real. After we have been shown that truth, then the faith comes into play by us having faith that God will do what He said He will do. I dont pretend for it to make sense, because God does things His way and its not for us to decide why. Im just trying to explain it the way I understand it. I hope this helps.

How many times must I say this?

There is a difference between faith and Faith!

You said that you need a bit of proof to show you God is real. Doesn't that go against scripture? What constitutes a bit? What was the proof that you received?

 

[Dark Virtue]

The bottom line is that it is all about faith! I don't think there are many Christians who have gone even a few steps in their walk with God that do not yearn to see Him and fellowship with Him face to face. The evidence of things not seen can be a heart conviction, for regardless of the experience, and the more we delve into the Bible and hold fast to the promises therein, it is all faith, until we see Him face to face, is it not?

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. I Corinthians 13: 12, 13

I think our best "evidence" of God is the Bible. Books come and go, and I don't think there is any other that has gone through such fiery trials, yet it remains the best seller of all time!

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

http://www.ipl.org/div/farq/bestsellerFARQ.html

Nevertheless, it takes faith to believe!

What you just described sounds more like HOPE than Faith.

 

[MeridianFlight]

Absolutely.

How many times do we have to go over the same arguments. Imagine if I constantly chided you for praying to the Virgin Mary or to the saints. You'd protest, wouldn't you? Sure, on a basic level, Catholics are Christians, but that doesn't mean all Christians are Catholic. The same goes with your argument. Not all Atheists are strong atheists. I have never, EVER claimed that I had evidence to invalidate the existence of God.

When have I ever claimed that?

I was afraid of this. Chopped up in counterpoint style, I believe you took this out of context, or perhaps I should have elaborated. My point is not that you have claimed that, I'm simply trying to establish the fact that you're on the same river, only in a different boat (Your decision is largely based on faith as well). Since you can't have absolute certainty in either direction, any decision for or against God requires faith, because there isn't absolute certainty it's correct.

As you said, this is a two way street. The burden of proof is on the one stating the positive. YOU claim God exists, yet there isn't sufficient evidence to justify his existence. That is PRECISELY why I do not state that God does not exist, because I can't prove that, just as you can't prove he exists.

Yes, exactly, it's a two way street! Which means there isn't sufficient evidence to invalidate his existence either, but you've clearly made a decision that would favor this outcome, which requires faith.

I believe I have caught you in a factual error. You call me a "weak atheist", but everything you have said paints me as a strong atheist. You sir, are in error, and using that as the foundation of your argument has destroyed its validity.

I disagree. I believe you've taken our disagreement over what a label signifies and have hastly attempted to use this as a reason for disgregarding everything else. "Strong" or "weak", you stand at your position on faith. There's no factual error here.

I think you already know that I don't believe that basing one's belief in gods based on Faith is reasonable.

I don't believe anyone makes the decision entirely on faith though. At certain points they see their faith justified, and they believe evidence they perceive to support their position.

On the flipside, I point out the loathed Pascal's Wager. Put aside the fact that you'd be believing just to save your hide. Either Christianity is right or Chrisitianity is wrong. If it's wrong and you don't believe, you've lost nothing. If it's right and you don't believe, you've lost everything. Sure, you may see a substantial lack of evidence for it to be right, but you can't be absolutely certain (and you wouldn't be on these boards ), so why not hedge your bets?

 

[Marcylene]

How do you know this? I ask because, I, and many like me, don't believe we were "wooed" at all.

Truly? When you were striving to serve Him, you don't think there was an original wooing from Him?

I know that He woos through Scripture, His promises, His sending Jesus to reconcile the world to Himself, even wondering about where we go after death could be considered His wooing.

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Romans 2:4

I noticed you said "A" God and not "THE" God. How did you KNOW there was a god?

I knew. I don't know how, perhaps my feeling that He was lonely when He created the earth appealed to the times I felt lonely. I am not sure. It humbles me to think how He brought me, from the pondering and inquisitiveness of a little child.

ARGH! Circular reasoning...like garlic to a vampire.

But DV, I am a child of the eternal, immortal, invisible, only wise God! It is an eternal circle of knowledge and wisdom gained by belief on the LORD Jesus Christ!...
Take that! In addition, consider it my Christmas wish list

Come, come now. How many times must I point out that there is a difference between faith and Faith?

Will you please explain faith and Faith one more time? I missed it somehow. I suspect that I may not agree for faith, is faith, is Faith, is Faith!

You are correct, in a very misleading sort of way.

*gasp* I resent that!

It would, indeed, be very unreasonable not to have faith in God were God a known being. That's not my point. My point is whether or not it's reasonable to believe in the existence of God.

Three guesses! The answer has three letters!

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

Considering what it took Jesus to go through, leaving His Heavenly throne, coming to earth, being stuck here for 33 years...then the torture that left Him beaten beyond recognition of man or animal...yea, it is reasonable to believe. The life of Jesus ringing out since time began, that should tell you something of its truthfulness.

You pointed out the problem but didn't address it. Does WANT/NEED lead one to believe in God? I don't know how to ask it any simpler.

Yes, I think wanting and needing may lead one to believe in God. Does it cause one to invent Him out of thin air? Nope! We have the amazing Word of God that points us in the right direction.

What do you think about elderly old atheists? Elderly old Buddhists? Muslims?

They are old poots?
Fair enough, I am not being entirely fair, I am thinking of many Christian women to be specific, when I stated that. Yet surely you have known a bitter old person, they are tough to be around, they don't have a kind word to say about anyone or anything.

What is this thing you believe elderly Christians have more of that nonChristians do not?

I will not say that they all are perfect, but I have the joy and privilege of knowing many that have an inner...Holy Spirit full grown, I don't know how else to describe it! The group of ladies I am thinking of are dolls, literal dolls, beautiful in so many ways. They shine the Love of God through and through, they have inner peace, they act as Jesus did.

 

[Marcylene]

What you just described sounds more like HOPE than Faith.

There is a fine dividing line. Faith, Hope, and Charity...three integral parts of the Fruit of the Spirit. The triune of Love, if you will!
Webster's 1828 Dictionary

HOPE, n. [L. cupio.]

1. A desire of some good, accompanied with at least a slight expectation of obtaining it, or a belief that it is obtainable. Hope differs from wish and desire in this, that it implies some expectation of obtaining the good desired, or the possibility of possessing it. Hope therefore always gives pleasure or joy; whereas wish and desire may produce or be accompanied with pain and anxiety.

The hypocrite's hope shall perish. Job.8.

He wish'ed, but not with hope--

Sweet hope! kind cheat!

He that lives upon hope, will die fasting.

2. Confidence in a future event; the highest degree of well founded expectation of good; as a hope founded on God's gracious promises; a scriptural sense.

A well founded scriptural hope,is, in our religion, the source of ineffable happiness.

3. That which gives hope; he or that which furnishes ground of expectation, or promises desired good. The hope of Israel is the Messiah.

The Lord will be the hope of his people. Joel 3.

4. An opinion or belief not amounting to certainty, but grounded on substantial evidence. The christian indulges a hope, that his sins are pardoned.
HOPE, v.i.


1. To cherish a desire of food, with some expectation of obtaining it, or a belief that it is obtainable.

Hope for good success.

Be sober and hope to the end. 1 Pet.1.

Hope humbly then, with trembling pinions soar.

2. To place confidence in; to trust in with confident expectation of good.

Why art thou cast down, O my soul,and why art thou disquieted within me? Hope thou in God. Ps.43.
HOPE, v.t. To desire with expectation of good, or a belief that it may be obtained. But as a transitive verb, it is seldom used,and the phrases in which it is so used are elliptical, for being understood.


So stands the Thracian herdsman with his spear,

Full in the gap,and hopes the hunted bear.
HOPE, n. A sloping plain between ridges of mountains. [Not in use.]

FAITH, n. [L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey. In the Greek Lexicon of Hederic it is said, the primitive signification of the verb is to bind and draw or lead, as signifies a rope or cable. But this remark is a little incorrect. The sense of the verb, from which that of rope and binding is derived, is to strain, to draw, and thus to bind or make fast. A rope or cable is that which makes fast. Heb.]


1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.

2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, or probable evidence of any kind.

3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers, is called historical or speculative faith; a faith little distinguished from the belief of the existence and achievements of Alexander or of Cesar.

4. Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith, is the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God's testimony, accompanied with a cordial assent of the will or approbation of the heart; an entire confidence or trust in God's character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation. In other words, that firm belief of God's testimony, and of the truth of the gospel, which influences the will, and leads to an entire reliance on Christ for salvation.

Being justified by faith. Rom. 5.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Heb. 11.

For we walk by faith, and not by sight. 2Cor. 5.

With the heart man believeth to righteousness. Rom. 10.

The faith of the gospel is that emotion of the mind, which is called trust or confidence, exercised towards the moral character of God, and particularly of the Savior.

Faith is an affectionate practical confidence in the testimony of God.

Faith is an affectionate practical confidence in the testimony of God.

Faith is a firm, cordial belief in the veracity of God, in all the declarations of his word; or a full and affectionate confidence in the certainty of those things which God has declared, and because he has declared them.

5. The object of belief; a doctrine or system of doctrines believed; a system of revealed truths received by christians.

They heard only, that he who persecuted us in times past, now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. Gal. 1.

6. The promises of God, or his truth and faithfulness.

shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Rom. 3.

7. An open profession of gospel truth.

Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Rom. 1.

8. A persuasion or belief of the lawfulness of things indifferent.

Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Rom 14.

9. Faithfulness; fidelity; a strict adherence to duty and fulfillment of promises.

Her failing, while her faith to me remains, I would conceal.

Children in whom is no faith. Deut. 32.

10. Word or honor pledged; promise given; fidelity. He violated his plighted faith.

For you alone I broke my faith with injured Palamon.

11. Sincerity; honesty; veracity; faithfulness. We ought in good faith, to fulfill all our engagements.

12. Credibility or truth. Unusual.]

The faith of the foregoing narrative.

CHARITY, n.


1. In a general sense, love, benevolence, good will; that disposition of heart which inclines men to think favorably of their fellow men to think favorably of their fellow men, and to do them good. In a theological sense, it includes supreme love to God, and universal good will to men.
1 Cor. 8. Col. 3. 1 Tim 1.


2. In a more particular sense, love, kindness, affection, tenderness, springing from natural relations; as the charities of father, son and brother.

3. Liberality to the poor, consisting in almsgiving or benefactions, or in gratuitous services to relieve them in distress.

4. Alms; whatever is bestowed gratuitously on the poor for their relief.

5. Liberality in gifts and services to promote public objects of utility, as to found and support bible societies, missionary societies, and others.

6. Candor; liberality in judging of men and their actions; a disposition which inclines men to think and judge favorably, and to put the best construction on words and actions which the case will admit. The highest exercise of charity, is charity towards the uncharitable.

7. Any act of kindness, or benevolence; as the charities of life.

8. A charitable institution. Charity-school, is a school maintained by voluntary contributions for educating poor children.

 

[Master~Plan]

Can you explain how faith matures or evolves?

I can tell you how my faith matured. When I was a child my parents never tryed to pull anything on my like santa, the toothfairy, muffin man/whatever. They straight up told me that they are all made up. However when It came to God, they were always serious about God and brought me to church every week, taught me scripture and how to live. I never ruined other kid's fantasies about various characters, and I grew up learning about an unseen God. My faith was: "wow, Mom and Pop never lie to me about characters and so many people put so much time and commitment into this God, so he must be real..." I had never seen God, I had never felt God, God was shown to me through the people in my life as a kid. So my faith was in the testamony of others.

About the Jr high age, life is no longer about what parents tell you what is true or what to do, you have to experience life for yourself. I saw friends that I had grown up with in the church not taking God seriously anymore, and doing thier own thing. As the world was opened up and I kind of stepped out from my parents wing a bit, I saw all the opposition to God. I was kind of baffled. Why would people be against God? I realized if it all is indeed not true, then there is no point in any of it.

So from there after having a solid foundation in scriputure and having faith in God through the testamony of others, I went out looking for God myself. My story only gets better from here.

I have listened to a diverse collection of religious views. A diverse collection of attacks against God. I grew up studying evolution. Through it all God has shown Himself like a bright becon. I have seen God protect my family when we were vounerable. Not only that, but God also healed my Dad from bieng paralyzed. I have seen God heal the sick after a day of prayer. I have had a spiritually lost, complete stranger call me on the phone and ask for me by name to talk. I have listened to the old and wise after a life of following God and thier great stories. I have listened to an old person who was not wise, and how God completely turned his life around. Jesus is shown to me every day through the people in my life, and I feel God in me, working on me everyday. God has kept my sister from death(though I don't think she realizes it and thats a whole nother story).

In short I have seen undeniable proof of God physically performing a miracle. But that isn't really as important as seeing people change thier whole lives around for a way that is less convenient. People say a lot of things, but you know what a person really thinks by what they do. I have seen uncountable people changed. I don't see the posibility of so many people changing what they do for a non existent being. And sadly there are biengs of light and dark....

so, I hope this answeres your short question. I wouldn't have shared if I didn't think you are bieng sincere DV, and you are in my prayers.

 

[Dark Virtue]

There is a fine dividing line. Faith, Hope, and Charity...three integral parts of the Fruit of the Spirit. The triune of Love, if you will!
Webster's 1828 Dictionary

HOPE, n. [L. cupio.]

1. A desire of some good, accompanied with at least a slight expectation of obtaining it, or a belief that it is obtainable. Hope differs from wish and desire in this, that it implies some expectation of obtaining the good desired, or the possibility of possessing it. Hope therefore always gives pleasure or joy; whereas wish and desire may produce or be accompanied with pain and anxiety.

The hypocrite's hope shall perish. Job.8.

He wish'ed, but not with hope--

Sweet hope! kind cheat!

He that lives upon hope, will die fasting.

2. Confidence in a future event; the highest degree of well founded expectation of good; as a hope founded on God's gracious promises; a scriptural sense.

A well founded scriptural hope,is, in our religion, the source of ineffable happiness.

3. That which gives hope; he or that which furnishes ground of expectation, or promises desired good. The hope of Israel is the Messiah.

The Lord will be the hope of his people. Joel 3.

4. An opinion or belief not amounting to certainty, but grounded on substantial evidence. The christian indulges a hope, that his sins are pardoned.
HOPE, v.i.


1. To cherish a desire of food, with some expectation of obtaining it, or a belief that it is obtainable.

Hope for good success.

Be sober and hope to the end. 1 Pet.1.

Hope humbly then, with trembling pinions soar.

2. To place confidence in; to trust in with confident expectation of good.

Why art thou cast down, O my soul,and why art thou disquieted within me? Hope thou in God. Ps.43.
HOPE, v.t. To desire with expectation of good, or a belief that it may be obtained. But as a transitive verb, it is seldom used,and the phrases in which it is so used are elliptical, for being understood.


So stands the Thracian herdsman with his spear,

Full in the gap,and hopes the hunted bear.
HOPE, n. A sloping plain between ridges of mountains. [Not in use.]

FAITH, n. [L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey. In the Greek Lexicon of Hederic it is said, the primitive signification of the verb is to bind and draw or lead, as signifies a rope or cable. But this remark is a little incorrect. The sense of the verb, from which that of rope and binding is derived, is to strain, to draw, and thus to bind or make fast. A rope or cable is that which makes fast. Heb.]


1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.

2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, or probable evidence of any kind.

3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers, is called historical or speculative faith; a faith little distinguished from the belief of the existence and achievements of Alexander or of Cesar.

4. Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith, is the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God's testimony, accompanied with a cordial assent of the will or approbation of the heart; an entire confidence or trust in God's character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation. In other words, that firm belief of God's testimony, and of the truth of the gospel, which influences the will, and leads to an entire reliance on Christ for salvation.

Being justified by faith. Rom. 5.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Heb. 11.

For we walk by faith, and not by sight. 2Cor. 5.

With the heart man believeth to righteousness. Rom. 10.

The faith of the gospel is that emotion of the mind, which is called trust or confidence, exercised towards the moral character of God, and particularly of the Savior.

Faith is an affectionate practical confidence in the testimony of God.

Faith is an affectionate practical confidence in the testimony of God.

Faith is a firm, cordial belief in the veracity of God, in all the declarations of his word; or a full and affectionate confidence in the certainty of those things which God has declared, and because he has declared them.

5. The object of belief; a doctrine or system of doctrines believed; a system of revealed truths received by christians.

They heard only, that he who persecuted us in times past, now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. Gal. 1.

6. The promises of God, or his truth and faithfulness.

shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Rom. 3.

7. An open profession of gospel truth.

Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Rom. 1.

8. A persuasion or belief of the lawfulness of things indifferent.

Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Rom 14.

9. Faithfulness; fidelity; a strict adherence to duty and fulfillment of promises.

Her failing, while her faith to me remains, I would conceal.

Children in whom is no faith. Deut. 32.

10. Word or honor pledged; promise given; fidelity. He violated his plighted faith.

For you alone I broke my faith with injured Palamon.

11. Sincerity; honesty; veracity; faithfulness. We ought in good faith, to fulfill all our engagements.

12. Credibility or truth. Unusual.]

The faith of the foregoing narrative.

CHARITY, n.


1. In a general sense, love, benevolence, good will; that disposition of heart which inclines men to think favorably of their fellow men to think favorably of their fellow men, and to do them good. In a theological sense, it includes supreme love to God, and universal good will to men.
1 Cor. 8. Col. 3. 1 Tim 1.


2. In a more particular sense, love, kindness, affection, tenderness, springing from natural relations; as the charities of father, son and brother.

3. Liberality to the poor, consisting in almsgiving or benefactions, or in gratuitous services to relieve them in distress.

4. Alms; whatever is bestowed gratuitously on the poor for their relief.

5. Liberality in gifts and services to promote public objects of utility, as to found and support bible societies, missionary societies, and others.

6. Candor; liberality in judging of men and their actions; a disposition which inclines men to think and judge favorably, and to put the best construction on words and actions which the case will admit. The highest exercise of charity, is charity towards the uncharitable.

7. Any act of kindness, or benevolence; as the charities of life.

8. A charitable institution. Charity-school, is a school maintained by voluntary contributions for educating poor children.

Thanks for the definitions...now I'm just waiting for you to make your point

 

[Dark Virtue]

Thanks MP, for the story and for noticing sincerity.

Question though...

How much different would your life have been if your parents had been Mulsim or Buddhist? What if you had grown up in a different country?

Would you be sitting here claiming undeniable proof for Allah or Buddha?

 

[ChickenSoup]

When I was a child my parents never tryed to pull anything on my like santa, the toothfairy, muffin man/whatever

I never quite realized that there was a holiday/occasion for the muffin man...

 

[Master~Plan]

Would you be sitting here claiming undeniable proof for Allah or Buddha?

probably not. The majority of the generation of my family right before me was raised non christain, and have each come to know God. I could go off on buhdists and the muslim, but your question can only be answered by speculation. What I see is other religions tend to keep you in via pressure of family or pressure of peers. A extreme example would be mormons. Christianity is 100% personal from where I stand.

 

[Master~Plan]

I never quite realized that there was a holiday/occasion for the muffin man...

oh, I'll institute one. Muffins are awsome
Muffins > any other bread