Dual Spec Discussion (loot, raid expectations, etc)

Neirai the Forgiven

Neirai the Forgiven

Christian Guilds List Manager
Hello! Dual-Spec will be coming out very soon, and I think that we can avoid a lot of drama by discussing it here first. On the itinerary for debate are the following topics:

Loot
1. Should 2nd-spec be considered a main spec?
2. If not, should 2nd-spec be considered superior to off-spec?

Expectations
1. Should raid leaders expect their players to have more than one spec as soon as they can afford it?
2. Should raid leaders expect their players to spec in two different roles?
2b. Is it rude to the other raid players to have two identical roles?
 
my thoughts
the spec u are asked to come as is maina nd the other spec is offspec
2nd spec is off spec. eg I will be mai spec dps off spec tank, which mean swhen tak gear drops i roll on off spec loot times.

expecations
no i dont think they should we arent a raiding guild plain and simple there. if we are expcted we are saying we are a raid guild

they should not it is a players choice not the raid or guild. How ever it my be the difference in coing on a run if someone can tank and heal or someone who can tank only when we have to many tanks or someone can dps and heal when we have to many of one. ofcourse i dont want to see us a uild say no to someone caus ethey can tafford to duel spec.

are u talking about beening build as 2 diferent dps build or healing or tanking for thoose who have different specs like that?

and if so I say no, mages/ rogue/warlocks can only dps. if a warrior wants a pvp build and apve forums it their choice.
even in raids it is not the raids choice on duel specs I can say haveo will not be duel specing since there no point.


thats my 2 centsworth and how I will be running my raids once I start my ow raid again for haveo.
 
One thing to consider is with Duel Spec there may not be a "main" spec you go to a run on. For example, lets say John goes to Naxx with his DK, he is in dps mode, then switches to tank mode for some bosses, a couple he switches to dps mode, and even on some of the bigger trash pulls he switches to tank mode.. you could honestly be 50/50 between the two specs on a run, so even though he spent half the time as a tank can he only roll on dps items becuase the first fight he was dps?

Just something to consider, really our friendly loot rolls work out well, and as long as we continue to consider the whole group (not just what you get) we should do just fine. Personally i would be fine with people rolling on loot for either of there specs, just keep it friendly and not greedy, IE-you won something pass to the person who hasn't.
 
Rob, I see a bit of a problem, reminds me much of the early days where if you were a hybrid toon, you had more access to possible rolls. If we didn't have the Be Nice rules, I would be very concerned. Dual spec would cause an unfair access to be able to rule on loot, in some ways penalizing non dual specs. Again a good execution of our Be Nice rules will help but I do see issues with a dual spec rolling on something that a non dual needs IF the dual spec doesn't call their main role when the raid starts.
 
What Rob said sounds ok.. But I think the only issue here is if you come in and tank for 50% of the run, some dps gear falls from the first boss and you are tanking spec.. You tanked it. Should you roll on it over those who started off with a dps spec? I'd feel .. odd.. about doing that myself.. I'd not do it.
Lets say I show up as a tank in the *new* instance Uldr and we kill first boss.. I'm not sure I'd want to roll against mike for a healing item that drops. He could equip and use it right there to help us move forward.

The other way: ppl could decide what spec they are going to roll on before the raid and stick with that (regardless if you change up during the run for a fight or two) If you sign on in GC as a tank, you stick with tanking gear through the entire run, even if you change to dps/healing during, for a few fights. Just like me MTing in naxx 10, but doing some healing for a few fights. The RL should use you primarily for the role you signed up for.

Typically, in the end, ppl end up with a lot of stuff for multiple specs anyways. So you are probably going to get much of the gear you want for both specs. Like in naxx, most of our group has main/off spec epic gear. So the question is: Who should get what loot first? I think the answer is depends on which spec you come with. Which spec the RL wants you to identify with for a given raid.

So:

Loot
1. Should 2nd-spec be considered a main spec?
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(Not if I were the RL for given run, unless you start a given run with a 2nd - spec)

2. If not, should 2nd-spec be considered superior to off-spec?
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(I don't understand this one. You mean 1st-spec superior to off?
W/e spec you sign up with in CG for a raid should be your superior spec, at least during a new encounter until it's down. For naxx10, ppl could probably spec into their off-spec, provided they have gear good enough, though it may not be as good as their main spec stuff.)

Expectations
1. Should raid leaders expect their players to have more than one spec as soon as they can afford it?
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(Meh, I would not if I was a RL although see answer to 2.)

2. Should raid leaders expect their players to spec in two different roles?
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(I would not, although those who do bring more flexability to the table and by that reason, may be more sought after, since they could change up before or during a run.)

2b. Is it rude to the other raid players to have two identical roles?
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This depends on the attitude of that player. It could be rude if a person who has 2 roles they play 50/50 get greedy with loot or their place in a run. But it could be very helpful also.

Ultimately we can settle, prevent a lot of issues by simply dealing with things before the team heads in. So ppl have a clear understanding of things and don't feel like they are being treated unjustly. Talk to the RL about which role/spec you want to play and see if that's ok. Just let that be your identity for that run. And Ask yourself if gear is = across both specs, so you can contribute equally. It might not be a huge issue for easier content, but the new stuff it will be.
 
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I agree with the notion that the "rolling main spec" be declared at the beginning of the run, regardless of the role filled at different points during the run. This would make things clear when loot pops up as to who should get first roll.
 
I like the announce what spec gear you are planning to role for at the start of the run.

This discussion is a good one to have. Just because we are not a raiding guild we still have a clear system of looting. For the most part except in certain circumstances it is commonly expected that everyone will pass on BoP items. That is something that we don't have to announce at the start of every guild run for it to be an understood way of us doing things. This doesn't have to end in a specific set of rules for our guild, but it will help to give the RLs ideas of how best to distribute loot for the runs that they do.
 
Good discussion so far. Here's what I've come up with by talking with players in our guild and with other raid leaders in the SGA:

1. Neither TF or the SGA is going to tell you how to spec for raids; the same applies to how you dual-spec.

2. Obviously, however, if you plan on using a spec (either one) in a raid, that spec needs to be reasonably geared for the content you will be challenging, and needs to be played in a reasonably competent manner. I may be a great tank, but that doesn't mean my healing or DPS set of greens or that I've never used should be pulled out in Ulduar.

3. What gear you can or cannot roll on is secondary to how much loot you are winning vs. sharing. Rolling on a DPS ring when you're a tank/DPS might be okay, but then you need to realize that you've already won an item and should pass to both tanks and DPS until they catch up. Obviously you just might get lucky and be the only one rolling on attack power leather *cough evan* and win a lot of rolls, but then you should pass to other players, even if you also have a moonkin set. Of course, that means if you have a set that you're trying to gear up for top-of-the-line tanking/DPS/healing, you should be smart and not try to go for that DPS ring, since you're going to want that tanking sword if it drops.

4. Communication is key. Talk to your raid leader. If you have a dual-spec and you want to pick up loot for it, make sure that she or he is okay with it. Also, talk to your role-mates. Make sure the other tanks are okay if you want to grab tank loots, or the DPS are okay if you want to grab DPS stuff.
 
2b. Is it rude to the other raid players to have two identical roles?
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I think what John means by that is if he, as a DK, had two different specs that were both talented towards tanking, but one was a frost build and one was blood build. So no matter what spec he is using he is in the raid as a tank. I don't think that's being unfair.

1. Neither TF or the SGA is going to tell you how to spec for raids; the same applies to how you dual-spec.
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In fact he answered his own question, if you want to spend 1000G on your DK to have two tanking builds go ahead, or if you want to spend another 1000G to have a frost and fire build on your mage... actually in that case give me the 1000G. :) Personally I will only have 1 dual-spec toon for now, which is my shaman. The main reason I want this is so that I can heal in raids since healers are still in high demand, but also be able to solo more than 1 mob/ minute. So prob 90% of my raiding will still be healing but I like to solo/quest as enhance. It will come down to a lot of personal preference for what spec to use in raids. I enjoy healing groups but it's painful to try to solo as resto. As far as gear I will prob roll mostly on healing gear to help the raid since my enhance gear (as cool as it is) won't help progression as much as my healing gear/skills.
 
I find with 2100+ spellpower I have little trouble killing mobs as resto. :D

That being said I fully intend to dual spec resto/elemental.
 
rhysj said:
i am personally trying to figure out mage duel specing lol, not seeing how it will work :p
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It doesn't have to. On the flip side, you might want to spec one spec for single-target DPS and drop all your AOE, and then have another spec for AOE. The specs could be the same tree (e.g. fire and fire) or in different trees (e.g. single target fire and arcane for AOE).
 
She has caster gear too. (all epics) The idea of feral is not something she is thrilled with, only has the gear because no one wanted it. (And has used it, as you know, when some of our lowbie alts needed a tank.
 
Woven said:
Renee.. prob healing/boomkin.
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Having respecced Neirai Resto, I know that resto druids can't solo worth a dead kodo.

So far, here's my list:

Shahmat: I'm torn on either blood(tank)/blood(dps) or blood(tank)/unholy(tank). If ulduar ends up being like naxx, I'll go the former. If it's more like EoE, or has lots of adds-based fights, which it sounds like it does, I'll go the latter.
 
/lurk

the other possibility that comes to mind for a pure dps class - mage/rogue/hunter/lock... is a hit based spec for bosses vs a crit or CC heavier spec for trash. (SV for trash and BM/MM for bosses?) I didn't know the talent trees well enough even when I was playing to know if there are the appropriate talents to do that... but just a thought to look into...

/vanish
 
I see no use for dual on hunters unless you are PVPing alot and want to raid. I carry two sets around, one that is more crit based and another that is more hit/ap based but the talents won't make a huge difference between trash and bosses.
 
Not every class is going to benefit as greatly from having two specs available. I think for the average Hunter, you're probably going to do what Adam said and have a PvP spec, if that's your cup of tea.

Obviously dual spec is of great benefit to healers and tanks.
 
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