DKP changes inc.

the up side with closed bid with a minimum is that i can know select the gear i want instead of being forced to take a piece of gear because im spec'd that way and it's an upgrade(happened in toc 25 the other day since i was the only druid and i'm asked to heal, even though i'd prefer feral gear; it was either I take it or it's getting DE'd).

the fact that when you say "main spec, off spec", well, for some of us, we don't have such a thing as main spec, off spec, I can play both feral and resto effectively and thus I am penalized by taking gears from both side and I will always have a negative dkp with the current system.

or I can instead say one spec is my main spec, when really it is not, so I don't get the loot, we have an abyss crystal for the gbank, and everyone will say "wow look at that guy hoard his dkp". I can say today I feel like resto is my main spec, tomorrow I change my mind and decide to have feral as a main spec.

with a closed bid system I will no longer feel guilty if I choose to not pick up a piece of gear, simply because I think the upgrade is not worth it.


===================================

This leads to the down side: a lot of gear will get DE'd, even though they may be an upgrade.

if dkp cost for items' minimum bids remains the way it is right now (especially having bosses' dkp value that are considered on farm reduced), this is what most likely will happen; I've seen it happen in another guild. Another disadvantage is the amount of time people invest in raiding does not reward them with the proper amount of dkp. for someone new or someone who just came back from a year ago, it is very likely that 2 or 3 of their toons combined total dkp is less than a main raider's CURRENT dkp that's been raiding since naxx; and if they happen to be rolling for the same gear, then the new person will have to 1. raid for months before he has a chance to obtain the gear he wants; 2. the gear he wants must drop so the other people can receive it first and thus reducing their dkp for them to eventually have a chance(either because everyone else has it already, or the new person's dkp finally reaches above the main raider's).

of course, you can give it to someone new who can use it(giving leather to hunter or cloth to pally), because we constantly bring in new people to gear them up in dkp raids unlike other progression guilds, but do you charge dkp for them? what if that person has 0, does he go negative? if you do not charge dkp, is it fair? why should someone get free loot while everyone else works their way through attendance and killing bosses? just because they are new 80?



Also, will going negative still be allowed? and does the dkp from the bidder go into the pool and get evenly distributed among all the raid attendee or does it simply go poof?

another scenario: if 2 people bid on 1 item, 1 person bid the minimum, say 6, while the other values the item and bids all in, say 20, will the person who bids 20 lose all 20 dkp or will he only lose 7, which is just 1 higher than the next highest bidder?


Personal Opinions after having raided with suicide king system, closed bid system, and open bid system progression guilds:

closed bid with minimum bid requirement worked the best for progression guilds, suicide king worked best with guilds that tend to try gear people up(since dkp is distributed from cross-class, meaning w/e loot dropped, as long as you don't win it, you get dkp for it), open bid, well, it worked for A team, so when 2xtier 6 pally shoulders dropped first one went for 200 dkp and the second one went for 5, if you want to avoid that kind of drama, i suggest don't use open bid.
 
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If you chose a main spec then all your offspec stuff is free but you have last priority. That's how the system currently works.
 
Proudfoot said:
If you chose a main spec then all your offspec stuff is free but you have last priority. That's how the system currently works.
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which i would consider unfair:

in the above toc 25 situation, when im the only druid, and I chose feral to be my main spec, but then I would be getting the gear for free even though I should be charged for it, since I believe that there should not be a main/offspec for my toon. the truth is, even though i have enough feral gear to tank through toc 10, i will never be one of the main tanks for 2 reasons: gear, and an excess of tanks and not enough healers. so I go in raids with resto spec all the time and get all the resto pieces for free, how would everyone else look at this situation? If I was some other resto druid I would certainly call that unfair.

What I want is a system where I can use my dkp to bid on gears from both specs, because I enjoy both equally, and the current system does not allow me to do that due to the limited amount of dkp you can get from a raid.


this is less of a problem with caster/caster main/off specs, but more of a problem for pally/druid tank/caster specs.
 
The idea behind declaring a main/offspec helps new 80s get geared up on their 1st rather than older 80s who are rolling on their 3rd or 4th set of gear.
 
Roadkill gets very few shards with their method. Main spec bids first minimum bid set...if no one wants it then offspec gets to bid and minimum bid is halved, then if no one wants to spend dkp on it it is randomed. While most stuff for offsets does go to random rolls, if you really want to spend the dkp for it though you can. Their guild, while not as hardcore as Redeemed, still has a core group of peeps that go to every raid just like Redeemed does.

@Illyria.....my main spec is tank....I pay full dkp for all tank gear that I want, but I heal the majority of raids for the same reason you do. My main spec was declared up front and there haven't been any issues although, when I win tank pieces the raid leader reminds the raid that its my main spec so that may be part of why there are never any comments. I have not had issues with getting enough heal gear to keep up with the raid with their system.
 
We are currently looking into a system where, like Gobby said, you would bid on both main spec and off-spec items. So that issue will most likely clear up if that system comes into effect. Another thing is, it is not a matter of how many tanks we have in the raid to determine the gear you get, most of the time, you will always have competition for the item you want (being that we are progressing in 25 man).

So, in that case, it is a matter of how much dkp you have (which our current system is being revamped, so you can blame it on that, it's being worked on =]) I do understand what you are saying, but the truth is, if a healer needs the item and they have chosen heals (Resto, Holy) as their main spec, they are going to get it over you. That's a priority system that I see in most guilds, even in Roadkill, and like Gobby said, she still doesn't have a problem with getting both specs of gear.

So I might be understanding you wrong, but if i'm not, what would your solution be to a problem like this? As much as I would assume that most of our guildies would pass if somebody needed it over them and it was their main spec, that situation might not always happen. So I see many problems faced with that proposition unfortunately =[

I personally do not like the closed-bid system and here is why. Example A has 50 dkp, example B has 45, so A wants the same piece of gear that B does and assumes that they both need it so he bids all out 50 dkp. He loses all his dkp that he has probably been working on for weeks now, I could be wrong, but I don't see fairness in that... do you?

With the system we have now, and dkp awarded being reduced from bosses, the system is going to work out nicely once all the improvements are made. And if I were to favor any system, it would be open-bidding, being that we are a Christian raiding guild, there should not be intimidation or hard feelings. As for the new people, well they just joined the guild, it takes a while for them to get the hang of things. I wouldn't expect a new member to come into the first raid and get a new piece of gear, that is unfair also.
 
If it is the uber item he has been saving all his dkp for....then it is fair.

Otherwise, one bids what they feel is a fair price to pay for an item. A and B wants the same piece of gear, it might be a side upgrade to both, so they both bid min, or min +1 or min +2. Maybe the gear is better for B then A and B bids 45 dkp and A bids min bid.

== edit == in a raid so I'll post more later

In my opinion, the current system is not broken enough to warrant a complete change in how things are done. The biggest complaint I hear from people is that people who always get into 10 mans are getting more and more dkp to spend in 25 mans. I've heard from 3 people know that they don't even bother asking for the trophies because they'll never get it because of this gap. The way they see it, is some people get a bunch of gear and then farm 10 mans for easy dkp. And even stopping the gaining of dkp from 10 mans, some people see those who have lots of dkp as having gained it at an unfair advantage, so that has to be dealt with (because they are right). It has nothing to do with somebody actually earning it, given that raid leaders can hand pick raids and the raid leaders are there for all the 10 mans. It is just a flaw in the current system and some people have gotten a real benefit from it over others.

I think first, 10 mans should stop earning dkp. Most of the people on the 10 mans don't need the items from the 10 man content, so they are just basically farming dkp while others get left out. (*see note below)
Second, I think the DKP system needs to be reset, put everybody on the same playing field.
Third, I think all items should have a static value based on item level. All 245 cost X, 252 cost Y.
Fourth everybody gets 2 dkp for being part of the raid and all those in standby also get 2 dkp for every boss downed. Any attempt dkp also goes to those on standby. RK has a pretty good standby policy. Adopt it or adapt it to fit Redeemed.
Fifth, weekly decay in effect to deal with gapping after monitoring the system for a period of 2 or 3 weeks.

*note
My understanding of the 10 man dkp was originally to be given out for only a few runs. First case scenario was, new content comes out, get a 10 man together, go find out that the new content is really easy. Give dkp to those who run as a reward for running and learning the 10 man but quickly like within a week or two convert guilds focus to 25 man. No more 10 man dkp. Second case scenerio was new content comes out, get a 10 man together, go find out content is really hard, will take 3 or 4 weeks to learn a few fight. Give people some dkp for wiping but getting grasp of fight, switch focus to 25 mans but because people have had experience, it might not be as bad. No more dkp in 10 mans, just in 25 mans. Under either case, nobody would get more then a few dkp over anybody else. But that policy may have changed as well.
 
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open bid can be just as intimidating by either not wanting to bid against certain people, etc.
 
I don't see how that could be intimidating... I might not see that side because I'm not dps, to my understanding people should be speaking with their CL's to see what pieces of gear benefit them the most. If it's a major upgrade then there should be no reason not to bid, after all you are in there for the same reasons they are (most of the time).

And as for the whole 10 man dkp, I agree with you Avest. I'm pretty sure dkp will stop being awarded in the near future, and if it won't we'll find a way to implement it so that it doesn't cause such a fuss.
 
Kyle-Kristeen said:
And if I were to favor any system, it would be open-bidding, being that we are a Christian raiding guild, there should not be intimidation or hard feelings.
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Because we are a Christian guild people tend to wear their hearts on their sleeve and they tend to get them broken more often then they ought because although we are Christian, that is trying to be Christ like, we are still in the end human.

Open bidding is a can of worms, or a Pandora's box, best left closed.

===

As a side note, I know I tend to be a little pessimistic about human nature, that comes from years of training in designing financial systems. In order to design controls for them, I have to learn to think like the people who want to circumvent them. So I tend to be cynical in my thinking sometimes because of it. Also, in my experience, regardless of ones faith, if there is a means to take an advantage, the temptation to take it will be there and if anybody feels they have ever been wronged, the temptation becomes all that more so. And while we all would like to think that in that time of weakness we wouldn't take advantage, the chances are, we will.

In my own life, I have made mistakes that I thought I would never in a million years make. I have made choices that I thought I would never make. All because I have thought I was somehow wronged by some system.
 
Just a scenario to through out there, and I'm not sure if it's realistic or not. Lets say I'm the only rogue in a raid, and a rogue class piece drops. As the only rogue, do I still need to bid my dkp on it?
 
So.. and I'm really not trying to argue just to argue.. But due to schedule I'm primarily a 10 man or 25 man non dkp raider. My schedule is too funky and I don't expect anyone to work around it. Well lets say I'm off on a particular dkp raid night.. I wl add the RL and by the grace of God I get chosen.

So we're moving along, and an UBER MH dagger drops. As I mostly do 10 mans and have 0 dkp, we're going to shard that item even though there's 1 person in the raid that can use it?
 
Some system's allow negative DKP, some systems do. The current system allows negative DKP. If you need it, and you have the most DKP (ie...you have zero and the other rogue has -5), you win the item and you go to -10.
 
It has NEVER been the practice under any system of loot distribution in the history of the guild where an item that can be used ever gets sharded. I hope and doubt that would ever change.
 
Goblit said:
It has NEVER been the practice under any system of loot distribution in the history of the guild where an item that can be used ever gets sharded. I hope and doubt that would ever change.
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You are correct Gobby, and that hasn't changed... Stubb if you bid on an item and you are the ONLY one who needs it, you will recieve that item.. you will just go into negative dkp. The item will never get sharded if somebody needs it, that's not how the system works as of right now.
 
That happened to me - so I know they do not shard if someone can use. One of my first raids I got some uber tanking shoulders out of ToC 10 man - I had no DKP to speak of.

Pneumatikos aka Sneezy (why? not really sure how it happened).
 
jokitaylor said:
That happened to me - so I know they do not shard if someone can use. One of my first raids I got some uber tanking shoulders out of ToC 10 man - I had no DKP to speak of.

Pneumatikos aka Sneezy (why? not really sure how it happened).
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If you want something that dropped, let the raid leader know in raid chat. Its up to him to determine who gets it by looking at the dkp and who else got drops etc. Saying things in vent can easily get missed or people mistake your voice for someone else's. At the very worst do BOTH and speak up if they miss it! Its only too late after the shard is made. Happy guildies are always better than shards and negative dkp means you have gear so its a good thing!
 
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Goblit said:
If you want something that dropped, let the raid leader know in raid chat. Its up to him to determine who gets it by looking at the dkp and who else got drops etc. Saying things in vent can easily get missed or people mistake your voice for someone else's. At the very worst do BOTH and speak up if they miss it! Its only too late after the shard is made. Happy guildies are always better than shards and negative dkp means you have gear so its a good thing!
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word
 
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