A question for those who don't hold Christ as Savior

[MeridianFlight]

Now please understand, I'm genuinely interested in your perspectives. I'm not opening this with "Explain how you sleep at night you pathetic godless pagans!!!"

I was wondering how those of you who didn't believe made sense of life, if you did at all. What's your rationale for getting up in the morning? Where do you find joy? Where do you find fulfillment (no, I'm not turning this into an infomercial)? Are you content?

Does the idea that you're one of six billion people on a tiny planet in an unbelievably massive universe, perhaps rendering you something of very little or no consequence at all, bother you?

 

[Eon]

It was something I had to come to terms with Ice. I mean - I was a devout Christian when I was younger, and I quite liked the idea that I was special. That there was a God up there looking out for me, someone who would always understand and love me even though there were no secrets between us.

Unfortunately, as I grew older, I applied empirical reasoning to my situation and realised *gasp* that there was nobody on the other end of the phone. Christian organisations weren't any more moral than non-Christian ones. Christian people didn't seem smarter, happier or better guided than non-Christian ones.

When it came right down to it, there didn't seem to be anyone looking out for me beyond my parents. There wasn't anyone taking care for me. In the end I got down on my knees, at the age of 12, and BEGGED God for a sign that I was still his chosen. I waited for some time - but no sign came. I began drifting away from the Christian church - quitting choir, stopping attending weekly services - but stopping prayer first. What was the point in talking if nobody was listening?

From there I tried hard atheism. But that didn't really float my boat either - it seemed an awfully cold view of the universe, and there was so much unexplained. I came to the conclusion that blindly believing Science would answer all was as bad as blindly believing that God would.

From there I started my New Age grand tour. Wicca. Druidism. Asatruism. Shamanism. Even more generalised and blanket Pagan faiths that just called themselves Paganism. I looked into the Thelemic schools. The Arcane societies. I never really felt ANYTHING that fitted 100 percent.

Then in Japan I looked at Shintoism - and standing in a Shinto temple in Sanomiya Kobe I felt total peace for the first time in about 15 years. I can't be Shinto, of course, because Shinto is specifically Japanese spirits and ancestors, but I've been applying some of the same concepts towards my own places and people back home in Europe.

It's not a complete answer - but it's the one that seems to best fit the facts as I know 'em.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ice, have you always lived your life as a theist? If so, that may explain why you feel the need to ask this question. Usually when I hear this question it's from someone who has always been a staunch theist, brought up in whatever their religion is.

It honestly boggles my mind that this question needs to be asked. Are we actually seen as godless heathens, crouched in our homes, gnawing on old bones and dancing around naked on moonlit nights? I hope not...although I know that some may actually think that way. Sad, very sad.

Let's see what I can do to answer your questions.

But first, I need to lay the groundwork for those answers. Since atheists don't believe in an afterlife, this life, the here and now, is all we have. That means, this physical existence should be lived to the fullest, cherished, we should make this life the best it can be. This is in stark contrast to Christian implications that atheists should just kill ourselves because we have nothing to live for. I believe the opposite is true...if this life means nothing to Christians and their goal is Heaven, then why don't they kill THEMselves? It's a good thing God said not to or else there wouldn't be any Christians here at all!

One more point to make clear: atheists believe in morality. HOPEFULLY this won't come as a shock to anyone. Yes, atheists are moral. We just don't believe that morality was doled out by a god. On the contrary, morals are a fluid thing. Changing and evolving through time to match geography, civilization and history. The essence here is the Golden Rule, treat others as you would like to be treated.

Now, with that being said, we can move on.

What is my rationale for getting up in the morning? To be the best that I can be. To be the best person I can be, the best husband I can be, the best father I can be, the best friend I can be, the best son I can be, the best brother I can be, the best employee I can be...et al. Is this every atheists rationale? No, but it is mine.

Where do I find joy? Come, come now! I find joy in many of the same places you do. I don't believe God created sunsets, buy my eyes still work, I can see the beauty in a sunset. I don't need God to tell me that I can enjoy something. Do you? Do you REALLY need God to tell you that it's ok to look into your daughter's eyes and feel joy? We find joy in all the same places theists do, we just don't thank an invisible being for them.

The same with fulfillment. I find fulfillment in doing a good job, whether that be at work or at home. Again, these questions leave me scratching my head. How different do you think we are?

Am I content? No, I am not. I AM HAPPY! Surprised?

As to your last question, about feeling insignificant in this vast universe. It all depends on how you look at it. Compared to an infinite universe, sure, I feel like a tiny, insignificant speck. Compared the the finite universe of my home, no, I do not. Somehow I don't think theists can say any different.

Does it make you uneasy knowing that an atheist can be happy and productive without having a divine allegience? We can be just as happy, if not happier than theists. We don't believe that we are worthless mounds of clay who should feel lucky to have been granted a park of life from some invisible omnimax being.

Atheists are people too!

 

[kraniac]

We don't believe that we are worthless mounds of clay who should feel lucky to have been granted a park of life from some invisible omnimax being.

Maybe you don't, but there are plenty of atheists who believe they are worthless mounds of carbon who should feel lucky to have been granted a park of life from a spontaneous process. My father felt that way for many years until he converted to Universalist Unitarianism.

 

[silent worship]

But first, I need to lay the groundwork for those answers. Since atheists don't believe in an afterlife, this life, the here and now, is all we have. -DV

What is your purpose here? I'm am trying to understand the idea of nothing happening after you die...

 

[MeridianFlight]

I'd like to point out that the whole reason I opened up with "How do you pathetic godless pagans sleep at night?" was because that wasn't my intended approach in asking this. It appears that was still the perceived approach though.

I ask because I've been on the other side of the fence, and I felt desolation, cold, brutal desolation. How do you rationalize everything in this life from an atheistic perspective? Everything is pointless, meaningless, devoid of any significance. Everything you feel are just funny chemical reactions going off inside your body, which happens to be one of six billion other similar biological machines stationed on a tiny planet in a vast universe.

What is the point in taking satisfaction in a "job well done" if isn't going to be remembered in 100 years? It's all maddening insignificance, that's what it is.

What do you do when the things that you do find happiness in fail you? What happens then? When hollowness sets in and you realize your trivial pursuits amount to or lead to nothing?

I ask this question because I've been there, and to this day, am astonished and forever grateful that I didn't jump off the cliff.

After enough time and introspection from an atheististic perspective the glass isn't half full or half empty, it's shattered and its contents have long since evaporated.

I was just interested as to how everyone else saw this.

 

[Dark Virtue]

But first, I need to lay the groundwork for those answers. Since atheists don't believe in an afterlife, this life, the here and now, is all we have. -DV

What is your purpose here? I'm am trying to understand the idea of nothing happening after you die...

I answered this in my post.

My purpose is what I make of it, there's no "higher purpose" or reason that we are here as far as I can see. If there is, there is no evidence of it, no logical reason to believe that one exists. If you can prove me wrong, I would be happy to listen.

What's so hard to understand in the belief of no afterlife? Think of a candle flame that is extinguished.

Heaven, the Elysian Fields, Reincarnation, et al, were all ideas created to make man feel better about death. There is no logical reason to believe in reincarnation, the Elysian Fields or Heaven.

 

[Gandhi]

I feel like being christian is living to die, your goal is to go to heaven. Would life really be that bad if we just died, no after life. Yet we're so scared of death, to make us feel more secure we make our selfs believe in God and heaven.

U follow all these rules so that when u die u won't just rott, u'll be in this magical place. It just seems like a waste of life. Also being christian growing up and hanging around alot of christians I didn't like the, I'm better than u, u're going to hell, higher than thou attitude.

Where do you find joy?

Do only christians find joy, in life.

I'm not talking about only christianity, I think the same about all religions.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I'd like to point out that the whole reason I opened up with "How do you pathetic godless pagans sleep at night?" was because that wasn't my intended approach in asking this. It appears that was still the perceived approach though.

I know you didn't come out and SAY it, but yes, your post still felt that way.

I ask because I've been on the other side of the fence, and I felt desolation, cold, brutal desolation.

Why? Exactly how long were you on the other side of the fence? Why do YOU think that other atheists don't feel this way? How do you think I can rationalize purpose in my godless life?

How do you rationalize everything in this life from an atheistic perspective? Everything is pointless, meaningless, devoid of any significance. Everything you feel are just funny chemical reactions going off inside your body, which happens to be one of six billion other similar biological machines stationed on a tiny planet in a vast universe.

Exactly how do you rationlize Love? Hate? Joy? Sorrow? I'd like to know.

It sounds like you just rationlized it to me. Those funny little chemical reactions occuring in my little grey brain creates these feelings. I know that, because I rationalized it with my little grey brain.

What is the point in taking satisfaction in a "job well done" if isn't going to be remembered in 100 years? It's all maddening insignificance, that's what it is.

Maybe if I do a good job, my work WILL be remembered in 100 years. What makes you think YOU will be remembered in 100 years? How many Christians have lived and died and are not remembered to this day? Poets, artists, architects, actors, heroes...all these people have had their work remembered through history.

This is actually why I went into Architecture. Because I wanted to leave something behind, something to be remembered.

And even if this doesn't happen, so what? Why do you feel it is necessary for the world to remember that you existed?

What do you do when the things that you do find happiness in fail you? What happens then? When hollowness sets in and you realize your trivial pursuits amount to or lead to nothing?

Everyone that I come in contact with can attest that my life is not trivial or amounts to nothing. I have a wife, I have children, I have coworkers...all of these people have been touched by me...hopefully in a good way.

Let me ask you a question...as a Christian, has there EVER been a time when you weren't happy? I think we both know the answer to that. You and I are just as happy. But why do YOU think that you can only be happy following God?

Just like you, there are times when I'm not happy. When I'm sad, or depressed. How one copes with it is a personal choice. I read some poetry or philosophy and it helps me cope, helps me get back up. I don't need to pray to make myself feel better. Religion, gods, prayer, all these things were invented by man to help himself cope. Don't you feel better knowing that God is there to help you out whenever you need it? Just like a parent, no? But there comes a time when you move out of your parents house and are on your own.

I ask this question because I've been there, and to this day, am astonished and forever grateful that I didn't jump off the cliff.

You have yet to explain why you felt that way. More importantly, what about Christianity, has answered all these questions for you?

After enough time and introspection from an atheististic perspective the glass isn't half full or half empty, it's shattered and its contents have long since evaporated.

Throughout this post, it sounds like you were less an atheist than you were a nihilist. Nihilism and Atheism are NOT synonymous. Your post leads me to believe you were definately a nihilist.

I was just interested as to how everyone else saw this.

I think this will make for a very interesting thread.

 

[Marcylene]

Yet we're so scared of death, to make us feel more secure we make our selfs believe in God and heaven.

Being afraid of death and the unknown is a natural human emotion. That is yet another of the beautiful facets of Christianity, having a LIVING Saviour that takes that fear.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Hebrews 2:14&15

 

[Dark Virtue]

Being afraid of death and the unknown is a natural human emotion. That is yet another of the beautiful facets of Christianity, having a LIVING Saviour that takes that fear.

That is precisely why man invented gods.

 

[MeridianFlight]

I know you didn't come out and SAY it, but yes, your post still felt that way.

Then I apologize. My next disclaimer will be painted in flashing neon.

Why? Exactly how long were you on the other side of the fence? Why do YOU think that other atheists don't feel this way? How do you think I can rationalize purpose in my godless life?

Long enough, and with plenty of time for introspection. I don't see how other atheists cannot avoid feeling this way eventually.

Exactly how do you rationlize Love? Hate? Joy? Sorrow? I'd like to know.

That's what Scripture is for.

It sounds like you just rationlized it to me. Those funny little chemical reactions occuring in my little grey brain creates these feelings. I know that, because I rationalized it with my little grey brain.

Doesn't that bother you though? All that's going off inside are those chemical reactions? That's it? Everything you feel, absolutely everything, can be catagorized as silly chemistry? There isn't something more? Something that can't necessarily be seen or measured by standard techniques or reasoning?

Maybe if I do a good job, my work WILL be remembered in 100 years. What makes you think YOU will be remembered in 100 years? How many Christians have lived and died and are not remembered to this day? Poets, artists, architects, actors, heroes...all these people have had their work remembered through history.

There's a problem with this. Atheists and Christians are separate in this regard, as one builds and lives for the here and now, and the other (ideally, please pay attention to the fact that I'm stressing ideally) does not.

Christians (hopefully) do not live for themselves. They live for (at least in theory) God. It doesn't matter if they are remembered on this earth, as they certainly won't be forgotten in heaven. They are not to seek glory for themselves. Being remembered on this earth isn't a necessitiy. It's doing lasting work, work that survives the fire, for God's Kingdom that matters. Whether or not that comes with any sort of notority on earth whatsoever is irrelevant and inconsequential.

If you aren't living for God's Kingdom however, then what's the point? Even if your work is remembered in 100 years, how does that help you if you're dead? You certainly can't revel in the praise heaped upon you.

This is actually why I went into Architecture. Because I wanted to leave something behind, something to be remembered.

Very cool. However, how do you know your work will last? What if it's torn down or modified in the future? Let's say it does last for quite some time, say two millenia. Who designed the Roman Colosseum again? Not even some of the most celebrated works in the history of architecture can be accredited to someone.

Besides, as an atheist, you have to acknowledge the very likely possibility that mankind will initiate its own extinction before colonizing other worlds. In that event, no one will be around to enjoy all the nice buildings humanity erected.

And even if this doesn't happen, so what? Why do you feel it is necessary for the world to remember that you existed?

I didn't say that, I was interested in how atheists felt about it.

Everyone that I come in contact with can attest that my life is not trivial or amounts to nothing. I have a wife, I have children, I have coworkers...all of these people have been touched by me...hopefully in a good way.

Who determines what's good? What isn't good? Who is the authority on that one? You? Someone else? Everyone is just a bunch of biological machines, how do you know you're "wired properly". How do you know anyone else is "wired properly"?

Let me ask you a question...as a Christian, has there EVER been a time when you weren't happy? I think we both know the answer to that. You and I are just as happy. But why do YOU think that you can only be happy following God?

That's the way we're designed, with a God shaped hole. Try filling it with something else and eventually you will notice something is amiss.

Just like you, there are times when I'm not happy. When I'm sad, or depressed. How one copes with it is a personal choice. I read some poetry or philosophy and it helps me cope, helps me get back up. I don't need to pray to make myself feel better. Religion, gods, prayer, all these things were invented by man to help himself cope. Don't you feel better knowing that God is there to help you out whenever you need it? Just like a parent, no? But there comes a time when you move out of your parents house and are on your own.

I adamently disagree.

There is something more, and that something more is God. Belief in him doesn't automatically mean you'll never feel any sort of pain again, but it does offer hope, comfort, and most importantly, salvation. You could argue that this is why man made Him up, but to recite a song lyric from John Cooper, "You're rippin' me off" (succinct isn't it? ).

Christ can't be made up, there are things about Christianity that you can't explain away or deny, you can certainly try, but not honestly. (Cheap shot, I know).

I believe, quite simply, there has to be something more. This place and the events that occur on it are way too odd to be one gigantic coincidence.

You have yet to explain why you felt that way. More importantly, what about Christianity, has answered all these questions for you?

Mostly yes and sometimes no, but that no part doesn't leave the massive gaping black hole that threatens to consume and destroy everything, leaving only devestation in its wake that it used to. If it was a complete yes, I wouldn't need faith.

Throughout this post, it sounds like you were less an atheist than you were a nihilist. Nihilism and Atheism are NOT synonymous. Your post leads me to believe you were definately a nihilist.

I believe nihilism is the inevitable byproduct of atheism, if distractions are set aside and dot connection commences.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Then I apologize. My next disclaimer will be painted in flashing neon.

I can't wait.

Long enough, and with plenty of time for introspection. I don't see how other atheists cannot avoid feeling this way eventually.

Just because you can't rationalize it, doesn't make it so.

That's what Scripture is for.

Would you mind actually putting forth the effort to answer the question?

Doesn't that bother you though? All that's going off inside are those chemical reactions? That's it? Everything you feel, absolutely everything, can be catagorized as silly chemistry? There isn't something more? Something that can't necessarily be seen or measured by standard techniques or reasoning?

No, it doesn't bother me. We are greater than the sum of our parts. I pity that you can't see that. I don't need tomake things up to make myself feel better. If there is something more that is beyond measurable techniques, then how do you know it's there? Because you WANT there to be? It's not intellectually honest to fathom a guess and believe it's fact.

There's a problem with this. Atheists and Christians are separate in this regard, as one builds and lives for the here and now, and the other (ideally, please pay attention to the fact that I'm stressing ideally) does not.

Christians (hopefully) do not live for themselves. They live for (at least in theory) God. It doesn't matter if they are remembered on this earth, as they certainly won't be forgotten in heaven. They are not to seek glory for themselves. Being remembered on this earth isn't a necessitiy. It's doing lasting work, work that survives the fire, for God's Kingdom that matters. Whether or not that comes with any sort of notority on earth whatsoever is irrelevant and inconsequential.

If you aren't living for God's Kingdom however, then what's the point? Even if your work is remembered in 100 years, how does that help you if you're dead? You certainly can't revel in the praise heaped upon you.

Then what is the value of living your life in the here and now?

Why do you believe that my goal is to "revel in the praise"? Is that what YOU are seeking? Because it's certainly not how I live my life.

Look at Pascal's Wager...if you have accepted the wager and you are wrong, look at all that you have lost, living your life for something that never existed.

Very cool. However, how do you know your work will last? What if it's torn down or modified in the future? Let's say it does last for quite some time, say two millenia. Who designed the Roman Colosseum again? Not even some of the most celebrated works in the history of architecture can be accredited to someone.

For someone that follows the meek example of Christianity, you devote an awful lot of time and energy on the self. Why is it necessary for the future to remember YOU?

Besides, as an atheist, you have to acknowledge the very likely possibility that mankind will initiate its own extinction before colonizing other worlds. In that event, no one will be around to enjoy all the nice buildings humanity erected.

Exactly why, as an atheist, would I have to acknowledge that? I seem to have more faith in my fellow man than you do.

I didn't say that, I was interested in how atheists felt about it.

Your attitude speaks louder than your words.

Who determines what's good? What isn't good? Who is the authority on that one? You? Someone else? Everyone is just a bunch of biological machines, how do you know you're "wired properly". How do you know anyone else is "wired properly"?

I've answered this question NUMEROUS times. The short, simple answer is SOCIETY.

That's the way we're designed, with a God shaped hole. Try filling it with something else and eventually you will notice something is amiss.

Really? How long do you think it will take for me to realize this?

I adamently disagree.

There is something more, and that something more is God. Belief in him doesn't automatically mean you'll never feel any sort of pain again, but it does offer hope, comfort, and most importantly, salvation. You could argue that this is why man made Him up, but to recite a song lyric from John Cooper, "You're rippin' me off" (succinct isn't it? ).

And why can't it be YOU rippin' me off?

Christ can't be made up, there are things about Christianity that you can't explain away or deny, you can certainly try, but not honestly. (Cheap shot, I know).

Such as? More importantly, there is NOTHING about Christianity that you can logically explain. So if you want to believe in it, more power to you, just keep it to yourself. I prefer to be honest to myself.

I believe, quite simply, there has to be something more. This place and the events that occur on it are way too odd to be one gigantic coincidence.

Believing it is so does not make it so. You cannot wish something into existence.

Mostly yes and sometimes no, but that no part doesn't leave the massive gaping black hole that threatens to consume and destroy everything, leaving only devestation in its wake that it used to. If it was a complete yes, I wouldn't need faith.

Shame you didn't actually answer the question and explain what it was about Christianity that seems to soothe you.

I believe nihilism is the inevitable byproduct of atheism, if distractions are set aside and dot connection commences.

Again, YOUR belief does not make it so. It is without a doubt that you were NOT an atheist as you claimed, but indeed, a Nihilist. Your outlook clearly defines this.

 

[MeridianFlight]

I can't wait.

Just because you can't rationalize it, doesn't make it so.

I'm sorry, but I asked you to rationalize it, and you've yet to do that, perhaps because it's impossible, yes?

Would you mind actually putting forth the effort to answer the question?

No need, it's there.

No, it doesn't bother me. We are greater than the sum of our parts. I pity that you can't see that. I don't need tomake things up to make myself feel better. If there is something more that is beyond measurable techniques, then how do you know it's there? Because you WANT there to be? It's not intellectually honest to fathom a guess and believe it's fact.

It's not a guess, what you need to solidify the "guess" is there. If you choose not to believe it, THEN you aren't being "intellectually honest".

Greater than the sum of our parts? You can't logically conclude that from an atheistic perspective. Larger than the sum of your parts would suggest something more, something more indeed. You don't get that one as an atheist. Humans are fragile biological machines, and something that would make them "greater than the sum" would require oh say...a God.

I don't have to want it to be there, it's there. For those who don't want it to be there, that's where the wanting comes in.

Then what is the value of living your life in the here and now?

You tell me.

Why do you believe that my goal is to "revel in the praise"? Is that what YOU are seeking? Because it's certainly not how I live my life.

Are you serious? Why did you enter the field of architecture again? To build something lasting? Why is it you want something to last?

Look at Pascal's Wager...if you have accepted the wager and you are wrong, look at all that you have lost, living your life for something that never existed.

Yeah? What's at the end of the road there? Nothing. What's at the end of the road if you're wrong? Guess which end of the road actually exists? It isn't the one that leads to nothing.

For someone that follows the meek example of Christianity, you devote an awful lot of time and energy on the self. Why is it necessary for the future to remember YOU?

Meek? Is that necessary? I'd like to think not.

Second, I'm talking about the perspective of an atheist, not a Christian. As an atheist your primary rule of law is survival, at any cost. To deny this would be "intellectually dishonest". Now that's meek.

Exactly why, as an atheist, would I have to acknowledge that? I seem to have more faith in my fellow man than you do.

DV, where has mankind most focused its technological might? What have humans spent the most time developing? It isn't agriculture.

Your attitude speaks louder than your words.

How so?

I've answered this question NUMEROUS times. The short, simple answer is SOCIETY.

Oh? How do you know they aren't a cluster of funny wiring? Why do they get to determine what's right and wrong? Why should humans be trusted with this?

Really? How long do you think it will take for me to realize this?

That's up to you.

And why can't it be YOU rippin' me off?

God isn't dead.

Such as? More importantly, there is NOTHING about Christianity that you can logically explain. So if you want to believe in it, more power to you, just keep it to yourself. I prefer to be honest to myself.

There is nothing about Christianity you can logically refute, and if you prefer to be honest, you're standing on the wrong side of the line.

Believing it is so does not make it so. You cannot wish something into existence.

Exactly, so stop wishing God dead.

Shame you didn't actually answer the question and explain what it was about Christianity that seems to soothe you.

It's the grape juice they use for communion.

What isn't there about a relationship with Christ that wouldn't "soothe" someone? Grace, hope, love, redemption, renewal, restoration, and everything else under the sun, for merely believing.

Again, YOUR belief does not make it so. It is without a doubt that you were NOT an atheist as you claimed, but indeed, a Nihilist. Your outlook clearly defines this.

I merely followed the path, saw the bridge out up ahead, and got off. Believing the bridge isn't out ahead doesn't it make so.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ice, you have seriously confused Nihilism with Atheism. I cannot stress that enough. The beliefs you chalk up to Atheism are those of Nihilism.

You claim one leads to the other, but you have not shown why.

According to your bio, you are only 20 years old. How long did you actually spend as an "atheist"? How long have you been a Christian? Were you raised in a theistic household?

 

[Eon]

Looks like somebody was staring into the abyss a little too long, to me.

If there's some substance to this debate I'll come back and post, for now, DV has this one covered.

 

[MeridianFlight]

Looks like somebody was staring into the abyss a little too long, to me.

If there's some substance to this debate I'll come back and post, for now, DV has this one covered.

Pretending it isn't there is the greatest danger.

Oh yeah, and just out of interest, it sounds what you've selected to follow, Shintoism, excludes you, at least it appears that way. Doesn't that bother you?

 

[MeridianFlight]

Ice, you have seriously confused Nihilism with Atheism. I cannot stress that enough. The beliefs you chalk up to Atheism are those of Nihilism.

You claim one leads to the other, but you have not shown why.

According to your bio, you are only 20 years old. How long did you actually spend as an "atheist"? How long have you been a Christian? Were you raised in a theistic household?

From dictionary.reference.com - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nihilism

"1. Philosophy.
a. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence.
b. A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated.
2. Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief.
3. The belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement.
4. also Nihilism A diffuse, revolutionary movement of mid 19th-century Russia that scorned authority and tradition and believed in reason, materialism, and radical change in society and government through terrorism and assassination.
5. Psychiatry. A delusion, experienced in some mental disorders, that the world or one's mind, body, or self does not exist."

If you were to isolate a portion of the first definition, section b, where it states "A doctrine holding that all values are baseless", you would have the eventual end road for atheism. This is where atheism should lead, rationally. There's no authority or governing force to hold to under atheistic principals.

Now you can make the argument that if you care about the best interests of the human race, then abiding by the laws of society and cooperating with the status quo is proper conduct.

However, this is contrary to natural laws, which emphasize survival of the fittest. Attempting to build a civilization requires actions that directly contradict the survival of the fittest paradigm. I'll expand on this if need be.

Another sticking point is morality. Where do you base morality? What is good, what is evil? What society dictates? How do we know society is correct? Laws are under a constant state of modification, which does not bode well for Society's judgement. How do you condemn the actions of someone else if you have no absolute authority to draw from? Isn't this individual merely attempting to survive?

I remember reading an article about H.G. Wells and how at some point he advocated eugenics, among other things. I don't bring this up because of who advocated it, but the article pointed out something. Eugenics was derived from evolutionary thinking.

Yes, it's true, there have been many abhorrent acts committed "for Christianity." Some truly horrific and repulsive actions were carried out during the Crusades and Reformation, but these were things that directly contradicted Biblical principal. Under evolutionary thinking, one could easily argue that atrocious practices that are in line with the "laws of nature" are perfectly acceptable. How can you appeal to morals when there is no absolute moral authority? Aren't morals merely obstructions and restraints of natural law?

I realize that not every atheist endorses evolution, but the two share the same problem. From that perspective, there isn't a point to anything. It's all pointless chaos, some random accident.

Now, I'd like to point something out. I didn't run from atheism because I was scared of the ramifications that pointless chaos left. I rejected it because I believe there is something more. This "something more" is key.

 

[Eon]

I already stated that I can't follow Shintoism - for precisely the reasons you have no doubt discovered. However that doesn't rule out a form of animism based squarely in my own frame of reference.

Animism actually explains a lot of what I've experienced.

 

[Dark Virtue]

If you were to isolate a portion of the first definition, section b, where it states "A doctrine holding that all values are baseless", you would have the eventual end road for atheism. This is where atheism should lead, rationally. There's no authority or governing force to hold to under atheistic principals.

I am going to stop you here because you are using this as the foundation for your argument. Unfortunately, it's not a solid foundation because, for some reason you have yet to explain, you believe that atheism somehow leads to nihilism, or more specifically, to baseless values.

Would you mind explaining this?