Warrior pondering talent tweaks

P

Pandacution

New Member
I am currently running as 12/5/54 prot build.

Armory

I am obviously trying to maximize my threat generation, more specifically my threat generation on aoe pulls.

My gearing as reached the point of doing heroics and possibly entry lvl for 10 man naxx.

I am wondering whether I have enough avoidance/mitigation to lose 3 points in shield spec in favor of 3 points in deep wounds. This is a decision based on dealing more threat, but I doubt that I have enough mitigation at this time to lose 3% block. The rage generation from blocking really is negligible when your taking damage from 3,4 or 5 80+ elites, so I am not worried about that.

If, however, more experienced tanks figure I can lose that 3% mitigation and not be a healing burden, the extra threat from deep wounds would allow that much more dps on an aoe pull.

I think with 10 man naxx gear the question will be moot as I would be running with 20% block minus the 3%, but until then...alas, not decided yet ;)

Sean

PS: Here is a link to an interesting discussion on deep wound at Tank Spot and Elitist Jerk Forum
 
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If you are having bad issues holding threat, then ok. (And I'm not sure you should be having issues..) If not go mitigation. I'm not sure how Bob/Eric are specced.. but I've never noticed them losing aggro on anything. You could try deep-wounds and see if you notice and significant difference in terms of threat/dps. The problem here is.. the variables... like ...group gear/config/experience..

As a pally I only have issues with momentary threat gen when someone hits a target before I do..(cough) or.. they are going all out on a target that is only taking consecration ticks from me. Then occasionally, a few times it's been an issue.

Having done heroics/10 mans.. unless I was having a horrible time holding aggro..I wouldn't even consider giving up a single point in any mitigation. Maybe when you get better geared you could use the points for more dps/threat..but just starting heroics.. I'd stick with w/e mitigation you can get.

I guess I'd ask Bob or Eric since I've never been prot on my warrior.
 
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ok I will put it this way. If you are having threat issues u are not doing the rotation properly. U need to be using sheild and revenge and vengence and that alone will mak e u have enough threat. When I have been proct I never have had a threat problem I have been proc a few times since 80 and I do put points in armor to the teeth. if when I do a proc build I use the build below. I never have problems with threat I lack mig.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info...000000000000000000053351225200012521330113321
 
I appreciate feedback, but I feel I need to clarify things.

I haven't had any issues holding threat on multiple mobs for the most part. 4, 5, 6 mobs. There have been a few bad pulls where I was tanking I don't know how many and held them all reasonably well.

That being said, I have recently encountered a situation where a tank spec DK, doing around 1.7k dps, was pulling aggro beyond my ability to hold the mobs. Simply put, DK aoe threat > warrior aoe threat. He was going all out, not waiting, and part of the time he had Frost Presence running by accident. Yes, he wasn't playing fair. That does not take away from the fact that he was doing alot more aoe threat than I could hope to.

This opened my eyes to the differences in the tanking classes. Simply put, warrior/(possibly druid?) aoe threat is(are) the worst of the tanking classes. I accept it, I've moved on. Warriors aren't terrible aoe threat producers, but compared to pallies/dk we aren't as good.

My goal was to look at my gearing/spec and find ways to get the most out of my warrior in terms of aoe threat. The same DK could not compete with my threat on a single target mobs, mainly the bosses. My tanking rotation could likely use optimizations, but it is still sound. Single target mobs I use a priority rotation. Shield slam, revenge, heroic strike, shockwave, devastate are my order of priorities in terms of threat producing abilities. Thunder clap and Demo shout take priority when the debuff needs refreshed. Devastate climbs higher on the priority when initially applying the debuff, but the tps is < the aforementioned abilities.

Devastate also gets used often in between cds to maintain both the stacked debuff and proc Sword and Board. Heroic strike is also used on every swing allowable by rage generation.

During aoe encounters I have two aoe abilities on cd. Thunder clap on 6s cd, shockwave on 20s cd (position dependancies sometimes are an issue). Demo shout does negligible threat, so I am not considering it a threat producing ability. Both pallies and dks have cd aoe DOT threat abilities. I find these superior in damage done and lack of being subject to miss chance. A few mobs avoid your Thunder clap and you have done next to zero threat that you need to wait 6 seconds to try again. Obviously hit cap is a goal. Damage shield helps, but doesn't do a whole lot of threat, nice boon granted.

My rotation involves heroic throw, charge, thunder clap, demo shout (while positioning the mobs), Shockwave (position dependent). After that I am using devastate, shield slam, revenge, cleave in between cds on Thunder clap and Shockwave, while tabbing through the mobs, ensuring I hit them all. I focus on hitting the kill target more often.

I still don't feel that my threat allows for dps to maximize the aoe situation. I don't want the dps to hold back for fear of pulling aggro. Faster pulls make for faster runs.

Deep wounds allows for continued threat generation off crits. It procs off damage shield and all other abilities. You can typically expect to be running 25% to 30% crit on TC/HS/Devastate/shield Slam/Cleave with instance/raid buffs. It can account for 5-6% to 10 - 12% increase dps/threat depending on encounters/buff etc. Not a bad boost in threat imo.

I just want to reiterate that my threat production does not suck. I am not saying I cannot hold aggro in all situations. I am simply looking at maximizing my aoe threat to allow for dps to do more damage, making the runs faster and smoother.

Sean
 
Danny, I concur with your statement regarding getting the most mitigation you can get.

Thank you for the feedback.

Sean
 
As a healer in Naxx and Heroics, more mitigation the tank has the better. I'd rather have to heal an extra 10% longer in a pull than have to heal 10% more. (I'm exaggerating slightly here to make the point.) I'd rather have dps wait an extra 6 seconds for a second T-clap before they AOE than have you with less mitigation. If your dps isn't waiting for your AOE threat ability to "hit" before they start in they'll likely find themselves looking at the pavement up close and personal like.

You do need to figure out the optimal rotation of abilities to keep building threat on the pack of mobs you are tanking, i.e. be able to hit that button every cooldown and not lose time on it, while fitting as much other threat generating abilities in the cool down space.

Having healed both Pally and Warrior tanks in Heroics and 10 mans, both seem to be able to AOE tank now just fine. Mitigation is the biggest thing I notice and it drives my ability to deal with AOE damage from various encounters. The more mitigation the tank has the less "big heals" I'll need to use on the tank, allowing me to Beacon of Light the Tank and flash heal the rest of the party getting hit by AOE damage. If the tank is taking more damage than what my flash heal can handle then I've got to intersperse big heals on the tank and it puts the dps at more of a risk of dying.
 
sean one of the thngs people need to realize when they are a dps that they need to play differently dependign on hte class of tank thye have. For me I know when a pally is tanking I ca go more ou but when a druid warrior or dk are tanking I need to hold back a bit longer since they dont tank mor ehte one at time as good as a pally. i think the problem isnt u it is the people that are dpsing and pulling off u. MY theory is u pull it off u tank it they learn fast uless it me and I never learn ask danny :D
 
5/8/58 offers a ton of Mitigation.
Sean, you know the class well and this may be redundant info but for a Tank:

DEF> Dodge> Parry & Block. Dodge is avoidance and Block is Mitigation.
As we all get more geared and our DPS groups start cranking, or raid fights will be shorter and support a 15/5/51 build.

5/8/58 is better for AoE tanking as well, especially in heroics.
 
That being said, I have recently encountered a situation where a tank spec DK, doing around 1.7k dps, was pulling aggro beyond my ability to hold the mobs. Simply put, DK aoe threat > warrior aoe threat. He was going all out, not waiting, and part of the time he had Frost Presence running by accident. Yes, he wasn't playing fair. That does not take away from the fact that he was doing alot more aoe threat than I could hope to.
Click to expand...

I still don't feel that my threat allows for dps to maximize the aoe situation. I don't want the dps to hold back for fear of pulling aggro. Faster pulls make for faster runs.
Click to expand...

I wonder how much of this is a gap in gear between classes vs. abilities.
I do about 1.3-1-5 dps and have not had any DK's pulling aggro off me on aoe tanking (Provided they are not taunting). But I have 99% of all the heroic epic drops and lack only the T7 hands from heroic badge loot.

I would not rule out DS for aoe threat. I'd use every aoe threat gen I had, from highest to lowest. (Unless.. there are GCD conflicts) 2 thunderclaps before ppl go aoe all outs. and if it's a dps class doing single target dmg.. he should be on target of target (Skull)

In the end, if this is truly a flaw in warrior aoe tanking threat mechanics and not dps jumping the gun, gear etc.. then I completely understand that you want to reduce this inherent toon flaw as much as possible shifting talent points around until a fix, so runs go smoother, faster..and dps is not gimped.

Your first priority is to hold threat and it doesn't feel good when you lose it.. Mitigation/avoidance comes into play after, though you need enough of it from the start. It's worthless if mobs are not beating on you.. However, losing aggro occasionally on aoe pulls because some DK tank, better geared perhaps, is using his "This ability generates a high amount of threat AOE" moves in a pickup group, in my opinion is not worth giving up any mitigation at this point in your gear progression when you are about to start heroics and 10 mans.

The flaw might be with the DK in that pickup group.

Mike had said,
I'd rather have dps wait an extra 6 seconds for a second T-clap before they AOE than have you with less mitigation.
Click to expand...

There you go.
 
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That being said, I have recently encountered a situation where a tank spec DK, doing around 1.7k dps, was pulling aggro beyond my ability to hold the mobs. Simply put, DK aoe threat > warrior aoe threat. He was going all out, not waiting, and part of the time he had Frost Presence running by accident. Yes, he wasn't playing fair. That does not take away from the fact that he was doing alot more aoe threat than I could hope to.
Click to expand...

I still don't feel that my threat allows for dps to maximize the aoe situation. I don't want the dps to hold back for fear of pulling aggro. Faster pulls make for faster runs.
Click to expand...

I wonder how much of this is a gap in gear between classes vs. abilities.
I do about 1.3-1-5 dps and have not had any DK's pulling aggro off me on aoe tanking (Provided they are not taunting). But I have 99% of all the heroic epic drops and lack only the T7 hands from heroic badge loot.

I would not rule out DS for aoe threat. I'd use every aoe threat gen I had, from highest to lowest. (Unless.. there are GCD conflicts) 2 thunderclaps before ppl go aoe all outs. and if it's a dps class doing single target dmg.. he should be on target of target (Skull)

In the end, if this is truly a flaw in warrior aoe tanking threat mechanics and not dps jumping the gun, gear etc.. then I completely understand that you want to reduce this inherent toon flaw as much as possible shifting talent points around until a fix, so runs go smoother, faster..and dps is not gimped.

Your first priority is to hold threat and it doesn't feel good when you lose it.. Mitigation/avoidance comes into play after, though you need enough of it from the start. It's worthless if mobs are not beating on you.. However, losing aggro occasionally on aoe pulls because some DK tank, better geared perhaps, is using his "This ability generates a high amount of threat AOE" moves in a pickup group, in my opinion is not worth giving up any mitigation at this point in your gear progression when you are about to start heroics and 10 mans.

The flaw might be with the DK in that pickup group.
 
Artaios said,

5/8/58 offers a ton of Mitigation.
Click to expand...

I was doing some comparison to your spec and my current spec via armory.
Your spec takes 1 point in imp bloodrage and 3/3 puncture which mine does not. It seems that our mitigation/avoidance is exactly the same, and it is a matter of preferences between the two. Imp charge/Imp heroic strike vs puncture/imp bloodrage and the differences in threat generation between impale and 3 more points in cruelty.

Berstromme said,

As a healer in Naxx and Heroics, more mitigation the tank has the better. I'd rather have to heal an extra 10% longer in a pull than have to heal 10% more. (I'm exaggerating slightly here to make the point.)
Click to expand...

Point taken. I've decided to keep the 3% extra mitigation over the improved threat until such a time that I no longer need that mitigation due to gear allowing for it.

Wovenx said,

It's worthless if mobs are not beating on you.. However, losing aggro occasionally on aoe pulls because some DK tank, better geared perhaps, is using his "This ability generates a high amount of threat AOE" moves in a pickup group, in my opinion is not worth giving up any mitigation at this point in your gear progression when you are about to start heroics and 10 mans.
Click to expand...

I concur.

My final spec is 12/5/54, I lose no mitigation or avoidance at this time. The difference in threat between 5/5 cruetly and 2/2 impale + 1 other talent I am unsure on. Theory crafting is not my thing though. Maybe if any of your are game at that if you want to spend the time to work that out ;)

Thanks for the constructive help,
Sean
 
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