Rap, sex, parents, co-opting gamer culture, etc...

Shagz

New Member
Rap, parents, co-opting gamer culture, etc...

Original thread

Figured there was enough to talk about under this topic that we could break it out into another thread...

Problem is I had this big post to continue the discussion but I hit a link by mistake and I've lost it all. Ah well, it'll force me to be more concise this time around.

re: Rap...why do you think MCs are always talking about trying to save the soul of hip hop?

That section of the music and culture has certainly gone down a dark, violent path, away from where it started in the Bronx as good time party music. Rock and Roll did that, nothing new there. What gets me though is that rap has become the dominant form of pop music and pop culture in the world today, and the artists that are part of that machine aren't taking responsibility for the power that they hold. Instead of doing good stuff and trying the change the world, they're rapping about violent, hateful topics, lost in a bling bling fantasty gangsta world that the suburban kids who eat stuff up love but have no real knowledge of. Ugh. Give me my K-Os, Tribe, Digable Planets, Pete Rock, Dialated Peoples, People Under the Stairs, The Streets, Soul Providers, The Roots, Blackalicious, Jurassic 5...at least those guys are putting some positive thought over their beats.

re: parents...I'm not one, but in defense of parents, I'd say it's pretty hard to be a parent these days and protect your kids from outside, negative influences. Marketers are a crafty, insidious bunch (no offense meant, but their job really is to get inside people's heads and sell them stuff), and they're better armed, financially and media savy-wise, to influece someone's kid then a parent would be...*if* the parent isn't involved with the kid. I don't think it's hopeless, but I definitely think a parent has to work harder today then they did several years ago because they're competeing with several communication points that they don't have much control over (cell phones, internet, etc.) and a marketing machine that's had years and years to sharpen it's weapons.

From a different angle, yes, parents, take responsibility for your kids and get involved in their lives, but everybody else, HELP parents do their job. If the video game industry is going to self-regulate, then take it seriously. There should be proper fines in place if a store sells an M-rated game to someone who's under age. The stores and the industry shouldn't do the job of the parent, but they should certainly abide by the rules that they've set out for themselves.

And developers should take responsibility for the content they're creating. If violence/sex/whatever serves the story, that's one thing, but if it's just violence for violence's sake (ex. Manhunt)...come on. Will the world be any richer because you've made that game?

Shagz, a lot of research (and not just Christian research) has shown that people are sick of seeing sex where it just doesn't belong. If you lurk the G4 forums as I have, you will be pleasantly surprised at the number of people complaining that there is too much sex and not enough games on their channel, and I agree with that totally

Totally agree. All of my friends think that it's gotten right out of hand with the amount of sex that's being plastered around, and this is regardless of their religious beliefs. Just like the violence in video games, it's one thing to use sexiness to sell product because it actually makes sense, but using sex just for sex's sake, in a place where it doesn't belong, it's just being socially irresponsible, or at the least, unimaginative and lazy. (See those "Go Daddy" super bowl ads) Even when it does make sense, they should pull it back. Great ok, if I use Axe body spray, the ladies won't be able to resist me. You don't have to use a jackhammer to illustrate that point. (Although I have it on good authority that Axe "smells cheap" and won't be getting you within 10 ft of any girl ;) )

As for the sexifying of video games...where the heck did that come from? Who's bright idea was that? I suppose it has to do with that statistic that said that 18-34 males (the oh so coveted slice of the populace) has stopped watching TV in favour of video games and the internet. In order to get males back to TV, they go the quickest, laziest route they can go, and that's to use sex. Just showing game movies and screenshots 'n whatever on the TV...not good enough. You can get that on the internet, you need something on TV that's bigger, better, so you get celebrities, music, sexy good looking people who are models, not gamers, etc. Multiply that thinking by the general "Maxim"-izing of male-centric media/ads/products and you have what we have today. (Not that Maxim is entirely to blame - they actually started out as a very cool men's magazine with really interesting articles - but then somebody upped the anty and it just became all about how little the girls were wearing :p )

hmmmm...think I ranted on too long there. If you made it this far, congratulations!! +1 to your patience attribute. :)
 
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That section of the music and culture has certainly gone down a dark, violent path, away from where it started in the Bronx as good time party music. Rock and Roll did that, nothing new there. What gets me though is that rap has become the dominant form of pop music and pop culture in the world today, and the artists that are part of that machine aren't taking responsibility for the power that they hold. Instead of doing good stuff and trying the change the world, they're rapping about violent, hateful topics, lost in a bling bling fantasty gangsta world that the suburban kids who eat stuff up love but have no real knowledge of. Ugh. Give me my K-Os, Tribe, Digable Planets, Pete Rock, Dialated Peoples, People Under the Stairs, The Streets, Soul Providers, The Roots, Blackalicious, Jurassic 5...at least those guys are putting some positive thought over their beats.

Y should artists take responsibility for their music. Their artists they share with the listiner whats on their mind. Kanye West said it best when he said, "We're not role models, our job is to make hot music". People always point at the artist when some kid does something wrong and blames a song or artist. How come no one ever blames the parents. I'm not a fan of alot of the bling bling stuff like chingy etc. But look where alot of them come from. They grew up poor as hell so now they have money and they want to buy the best of everything. If I won the lottery I'm buying a austin martin, and getting a pair of ice cream in every color.
And if u met K-Os in person u might wonder if this is the same guy singing the music. Lets just say he likes to get high.
Tribe, doesn't he have songs about drugs and sex. Same with the streets.

I'm a maxim fan, but I agree the push the limit sometimes.
The thing is sex sells, look at the paris hilton ad, they knew it was to "Hot!!" for tv, but having it talked about on the news is more publicity.
 
[They're] artists; they share with the listener what's on their mind.
Let's assume that the popular singers and rappers we're discussing are in most ways representative of the average individual in our culture. If they're truly singing their thoughts, why are we offended by them? If they're average people then the music should be reflecting our thoughts too, not changing them. You have claimed that the culture shapes music, but I would argue that more often, music shapes culture. We become what we listen to, instead of listening to what we are.
Kanye West said it best when he said, "We're not role models, our job is to make hot music".
He's wrong there. Their job, as their label defines it, may be to "make hot music," but unfortunately they have no choice about their role-model status. People don't get to choose who they influence; people choose who influences them-- that is, I choose my role models; they don't choose me. Mr. West may not want to be a role model, and he may have never asked for the job. But with the popularity of his position also comes the responsibility of being a role model to his fans.
I'm not a fan of a lot of the bling bling stuff...
That makes two of us. Pre-1997 or thenabouts, rap was musical and revolutionary. Pete Rock & C.L. Smooth's Mecca and the Soul Brother is probably still the best rap album I own, disregarding expletives in the lyrics (Rock was wise to split with C.L. Smooth, even if he was one of the better rappers of the first half of the 90's). The minimalist, quasi-arrhythmic, often cheesy sound heard so often today is at best parody of anything Pete Rock ever composed. He remains the best rap producer in the industry.
Same with The Streets.
Man, that guy is just funny. One thing I like about The Streets besides his uncaring attitude toward conformity is the fact that, though his songs do suffer from expletive issues too often for my liking, the lyrics, unlike the atrocious tirades from more popular rappers like Eminem, actually do reflect the thoughts of most of the secular populace. One of his early hits, Same Old Thing, is an elegant illustration of how meaningless life is without God.
I'm a Maxim fan, but I agree, [they] push the limit sometimes.
Sometimes?

I will not peruse the magazine, but the covers alone are enough to make me think that that publication is basically soft-core porno. I have been told that Men's Health has turned in to the same thing, and that it too once had many redeeming and helpful qualities. However, I shouldn't have to brave 20+ pages of pictures and articles whose only purpose is to induce lustfulness, to get a few tips on the next time I get pulled over for a traffic violation. How useful can some advice columns be that I must rip out half the magazine I just paid six bucks for, so that I can avoid sinning?

Those magazines are just another example of the degradation of women as sex objects in popular culture. And as gamer culture becomes increasingly absorbed in popular culture, it will take on the nature of the popular culture, including the problems Shagz, Chameleon, and Killerah mentioned. How sad.
 
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First off thanks for the edit, I've always said I suck at spelling. :p

Let's assume that the popular singers and rappers we're discussing are in most ways representative of the average individual in our culture. If they're truly singing their thoughts, why are we offended by them? If they're average people then the music should be reflecting our thoughts too, not changing them. You have claimed that the culture shapes music, but I would argue that more often, music shapes culture. We become what we listen to, instead of listening to what we are.

Maybe you are not the average individual. Their music doesn't offend me.
Lets look at Gangsta Rap, people always pick on it and says it promotes violence, and I don't see how. Take 2Pac (my fav rapper of all time) when I listen to his music I don't see it as promoting violence. I think on one of his interviews on resurection, that sure there is going to be that kid out there that thinks thug life and stuff is cool because its a fad. But there's also that other kid who has gone through the same strugles as I have and thats the kid he wants to reach.
ok I went on a rant there, but if these guys didn't come from poor backrounds where they saw all this violence going on around them they wouldn't put out this music. If music defined culture, and music back in the day was all fun and great, these artists who grew up on it wouldn't be singing about violence. I'm generalizing a bit but u get the point I'm trying to make.

He's wrong there. Their job, as their label defines it, may be to "make hot music," but unfortunately they have no choice about their role-model status. People don't get to choose who they influence; people choose who influences them-- that is, I choose my role models; they don't choose me. Mr. West may not want to be a role model, and he may have never asked for the job. But with the popularity of his position also comes the responsibility of being a role model to his fans.

Would u rather him be this fake puppet who always says the right thing. Tell us to say no to drugs, drink our milk etc etc. I want to listen to artists who write music that isn't censored to what the majority of people like.

Those magazines are just another example of the degradation of women as sex objects in popular culture.

Well the women on the cover of these mags are going along with it. If they didn't want to do it they could say no. But speaking of Maxim I still don't have their hot 100 issue.

If u don't like the music or game because it offends u don't listen to it or play it. True artists make music that they would enjoy and hope there are people out there that feel the same way.
If u we're one of the olson twins and some 45 year old critic wrote a bad review about your movie would u care. Probobly not because thats not who u're trying to sell your movie too. Same thing with games and music. U might not see the same meaning or message in the song as someone else.

I know there's probobly a few spellign errors beut plz go easy on me :p
 
People are products of what they consume. This is a law that has always held true (and yes it is Biblical).

"For as a man thinketh in his heart so is he" (Proverbs 23:7)

We must be exceedingly careful about what we let into our minds. If you've ever witnessed how a child can listen to a song only once or twice and then sing the lyrics perfectly not missing a single beat you will know that what we see and hear affects us. It seeps in whether we know it or not.

Satan knows this too, and that is why he corrupts us through the media. People voluntarily sit in-front of the Television for hours at a time and saturate themselves with images in the name of entertainment, "feeling good". Is this really wise? Probably not...

And what are the images they let in? Most of the time, not Christian.

By now I am sure you are thinking: "But James, I still read my Bible and pray".

Compare the amount of time you spend reading the Bible and praying with the amount of time you listen to secular music and television and then guess which is having more effect on you.

Even if your Bible time is more, why would you want to tempt yourself by submitting your mind to ungodly messages?

People are impressionable. Yes all people, not just children. Look at the 30-something woman who is slightly overweight and does a 180 and becomes anorexic because she feels she can't measure up to the image of woman that the fashion industry portrays.

Look at the average 40-something man and family who works three jobs because he feels he has to keep up with the ever-elusive "Jones'"

Everything you do will either glorify Satan or the Lord. What you do is determined by what is in your heart and mind. Whatever you let in starts as a seed and grows as it is fed, this is Biblical principal; and I have seen it happen far too many times to even think about doubting it.

You are what you eat, spiritually this is also true. ;)
 
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We must be exceedingly careful about what we let into our minds. If you've ever witnessed how a child can listen to a song only once or twice and then sing the lyrics perfectly not missing a single beat you will know that what we see and hear affects us. It seeps in whether we know it or not.

This reminds me of a funny story of my little cuz hearing a bit of my waren G album and started singing it word for word after one listen. And then me and my cuz trying to make him forget by singing nursery rhymes. :)

I'm not christian anymore, and it had nothing to do with the music I listen too or the type of movies I watch. And no it wasn't satan. But I guess he's a easy figure to blame all our problems on.
 
Please share with me the reason, I would love to discuss it with you. E-mail me if you want to keep it private.
 
Sry James my reasons are hard enough for me to deal with sharing them with someone else would bring back to many bad memories. :)
 
Gandhi said:
First off thanks for the edit, I've always said I suck at spelling. :p



Maybe you are not the average individual. Their music doesn't offend me.
Lets look at Gangsta Rap, people always pick on it and says it promotes violence, and I don't see how. Take 2Pac (my fav rapper of all time) when I listen to his music I don't see it as promoting violence. I think on one of his interviews on resurection, that sure there is going to be that kid out there that thinks thug life and stuff is cool because its a fad. But there's also that other kid who has gone through the same strugles as I have and thats the kid he wants to reach.
ok I went on a rant there, but if these guys didn't come from poor backrounds where they saw all this violence going on around them they wouldn't put out this music. If music defined culture, and music back in the day was all fun and great, these artists who grew up on it wouldn't be singing about violence. I'm generalizing a bit but u get the point I'm trying to make.



Would u rather him be this fake puppet who always says the right thing. Tell us to say no to drugs, drink our milk etc etc. I want to listen to artists who write music that isn't censored to what the majority of people like.



Well the women on the cover of these mags are going along with it. If they didn't want to do it they could say no. But speaking of Maxim I still don't have their hot 100 issue.

If u don't like the music or game because it offends u don't listen to it or play it. True artists make music that they would enjoy and hope there are people out there that feel the same way.
If u we're one of the olson twins and some 45 year old critic wrote a bad review about your movie would u care. Probobly not because thats not who u're trying to sell your movie too. Same thing with games and music. U might not see the same meaning or message in the song as someone else.

I know there's probobly a few spellign errors beut plz go easy on me :p

My disclaimer....I don't want to reflect on the toj.cc clan in any negative light , so I will start by stating that I am a casual visitor here. But something that strikes me is this comment:

Gandhi said:
If u don't like the music or game because it offends u don't listen to it or play it. True artists make music that they would enjoy and hope there are people out there that feel the same way.
:p

I personally think that it is not necessarily the choice we make to listen or not listen to the music. The fact is that millions of kids are programmed by the music that they listen to. This is not some off the cuff statement, look at the music of the 60's and 70's. Coupled with the mind expanding drugs, it fueled an entire movement that changed the face of the nation. I don't want to go into the dynamics of what those changes were, but I want to point out that the end result was undeniably noticeable.

That being said, I worry for a generation that feeds itself on the concept of the thug life. Why do you think in communist countries radio stations are ruled by the government? It is the same reason why the face of the dictator is plastered all over wherever you go. The reason is to continually obscure any alternative to their way of thought. Yes, people have the choice to listen to what they want to listen to..but for the people that lack the ability to seperate between what is one persons opinion on life and how that message should be seen in light of their own lives...you end up with many people mindlessly integrating the principles of the music into their own lives. It would be folly to underestimate the power that these 'artists' have over the populus.

I hope I haven't come across as rude, but I cannot agree with the argument that it does not promote violence. You and I (and everyone else) is a product of what we believe, and what we believe has to come from somewhere. Without the ability to discern for ourselves what is a 'right' or 'wrong' choice we will adhere to philosophies on life that come from the role models present in our society.
 
I pretty much concur with that. I would add that people are born with the ability to tell with good (though not perfect) accuracy, the difference between right and wrong, and that as we grow older it becomes harder for us to tell on our own as we grow less sensitive to our conscience. Or at least, that has been my experience. That's one reason for my faith-- a code of ethics more permanent and more correct than any I could produce by my conscience alone.

But I digress. To put us back on topic: The culture affects us more than we know. G4 should not have 70% sex and 30% games.
 
Great post Cham3l3on.

I would also like to add something to my previous comments (and as an extension to what is written above).

Advertisers spend millions on Television and Radio ads that only last roughly thirty seconds. They wouldn't do that if it had no effect on the consumers.

Messages affect people whether they realize it or not.
 
Advertisments are cool, but I'm not going to go eat at burger king because the backstreet boys eat there. Maybe I'm just weird. :)

The msg of thug life was to work hard and change the ghetto in to a better place. He tells a story and if u actually understand the whole song u would see that he is protraying it as a negative. Maybe u should take a class at UCLA on his songs and poetry.
 
Gandhi said:
I'm not going to go eat at burger king because the backstreet boys eat there. Maybe I'm just weird. :)
No, but you might if Tupac did, am I right?

Gandhi said:
The msg of thug life was to work hard and change the ghetto in to a better place
...by selling crack, beating people up, disobeying the police, and generally causing mayhem.
 
I just wanted to make a brief post thanking everyone for keeping the conversation civil. While I've elected not to express my personal views on modern music on these forums (as I seek goodwill with all forum members and my opinions would likely not foster such relations), I applaud those who discuss music without dismissing entire genres. Those who have read my opinions on anime know that I find few things more irksome than dismissing an entire art form because of abuse of that form by a few unscrupulous people.

And I'll leave it at that. ^^ I look forward to reading more!
 
Gandhi said:
The msg of thug life was to work hard and change the ghetto in to a better place. He tells a story and if u actually understand the whole song u would see that he is protraying it as a negative. Maybe u should take a class at UCLA on his songs and poetry.

Sorry for the confusion....referring to 'thug life' meaning those who glorify the lifestyle of gangsters. The message (I am referring to) is that they are rich and powerful, have all the girls and whatever they want because of the path that they have chosen. I appreciate all gendres of music and can enjoy all styles. What I do consider corrosive to our society is (any) music style that blatantly glorifies a lifestyle that can (to any rational observer) only lead to detrimental thought patterns. I do not understand how this can be considered of any value to me or anyone for that matter. They are tapping the nerve of America that is thriving on blatant disregard for anything of true value (in reference to humanitarian issues) and using it for their own gain and quite frankly it disgusts me. I am speaking of the dominant trend now and not referencing those whose message is not predominantly about the benefits of the more shallow aspects of life. I do not listen to much rap because it is not my favorite gendre, but what I have heard the most of on the radio all has (more or less) the same theme.

Some of these people are not original, furthermore I would consider them the advertising world of musical artists in that they offer little (or nothing) of value for self improvement, contribution to society or county and seek only to promote and support the lifestyle that they have grown accustomed to. Please don't misunderstand me, I am in no means opposed to people who are crying out against their generation, their hardships, etc. I am not on a crusade against rap in particular, but like I said, it is the trend of the music that makes me worry about the state of our nation. (Music is one of the windows to society). What I am opposed to is that kids are mindlessly glorifying their peers who offer them very little in terms of the ability to change their own situation for the better.

In support of my argument I would offer this link so that you can see what is currently popular. It becomes quite clear the general trend of the thought process. I also provided links to the lyrics for these songs, but will make the disclaimer that most of these are EXPLICIT LYRICS so be warned.

http://www.billboard.com/bb/charts/airplay/rap.jsp

And the top two song lyrics:

http://lyrics.astraweb.com:2000/t5d.cgi?50_cent..the_massacre..just_a_lil_bit
http://www.musicfactory2.co.uk/Lyrics/Yingyangtwins/Waitclean.html

And the fourth place position:

http://www.lyricstop.com/g/grindwithme-prettyricky.html

The third place is 50 cent's 'Hate it or Love it' title portraying his own (and others) hardships growing up. And while this is the reality of many living in America, but what advice does he offer to his listeners? The only insight I can gain is to become like he is and your problems will be solved.

I am no stranger to hardship, we all have our stories and overcoming adversity can be honorable. The real question is what do you teach others from your life experience?
 
No, but you might if Tupac did, am I right?
No actually I wouldn't, I've never bought something because a celebrity is promoting it.

...by selling crack, beating people up, disobeying the police, and generally causing mayhem.

If u remember the these guys were there during the Rodney King beatings. Thats where the anti police songs came from.

and there are some explicit lyrics
ghetto gospal

Forget the 50 lyrics listen to the pac one it paints the life as a negative.
The realist

mama's just a little girl

16 on death row

part time mutha

AM I obsessed with tupac.

The third place is 50 cent's 'Hate it or Love it' title portraying his own (and others) hardships growing up. And while this is the reality of many living in America, but what advice does he offer to his listeners? The only insight I can gain is to become like he is and your problems will be solved.

50 is weird in a sence that the record lable uses the fact of him getting shot as a marketing tool. But really is it promoting gang life, he got shot 9 times outside of his grandmas house. In my mind I'm thinking I'll never follow this lifestyle because one of these stray bullets could of hit my grandma or son.
But I'll give u this, kids are fasinated with gand life, thats y movies like the godfarther and scarface are so popular, and knowing that their listining to a artist that actually lives whats they say is a plus in their eyes.
Just like when Tupac shot those 2 off duty cops, his popularity went up. It seems weird to me, but I blame it on bad parenting.
I have to cut it down cause I got to go for test :)
I love discussions on music its one of my fav. subjects.
 
Just one quick post. I did a spur of the moment word association with a co-worker yesterday. It went something like this:

me: "Popular rap artist"
co-worker: " 50 cent"
me: "50 cent message"
co-worker: "guns"

This was a completely random, spur of the moment, and unscripted dialogue.
 
50 uses guns as a marketing tool, remember he was shot 9 times. But to me it always showed how negative his lifestyle was, even though its used as a marketing tool that says look at me I was really a ganster. I always looked at it as his life must of sucked to be shot 9 times, and be sent to prison atleast once a year for most of his adult life.
But I was thinking about it and when I grew up and listened to Ice T, NWA, Tupac, Public Enemy etc etc, they always had some kind of msg in their music ahowing the problems in society. They wore gold chains, and rolexes but they had a msg. Most rappers now who grew up on the same stuff only focused on the jewellery and money. Which maybe comes from the fact that alot of young rappers come from a broken home, and didn't always have that parent around to show them whats important in life. Plus when your a poor kid and u see gold and money u focus on gold and money.
So maybe if today youths are being attracted to the violence and drugs u see on tv, its because there are so many single parents out there today, who have to spend most of their day working to keep food on the table, and don't spend enough time with their kids.
 
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