Homosexuality

[Snake_Six]

This is about what the Bible says about homosexuality.
Basically, it's wrong.
But the real question is why.
This is my post that says why I believe it's wrong.

It's wrong because it is a violation of the natural order. God created man and woman and told them to be fruitful and multiply. Two people of the same gender cannot do the by themselves. They are in violation of God's Creation Ordinence (sp?).

Discuss.

 

[Durruck]

First, from Leviticus 18:22, we see:

22Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable

Because of cultural differences, the Old Testament was written "in a man's world"....so that the audience is assumed to be a male. This section of Leviticus is outlining God's decrees of what types of things are unacceptable behavior. God flatly says here "men shouldn't sleep with men."

Further, from 1 Cor 7:2-3, we see:

2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.

God tells us in the Bible that a man and a woman should come together in marriage. Only then should there be a sexual relationship. Notice the pronouns. "his" and "her".... possessive pronouns are very specific here to say what belongs to the husband and what belongs to the wife.

And lastly, from Marriam-Webster Dictionary (www.webster.com)
Husband: a male partner in a marriage
Wife: a female partner in a marriage

So, with these definitions of what the words mean, there is no way that two men could become married. There is no way two women can become married. Even the dictionary people say there shouldn't (and based on the definition of the terms "marriage", "husband", and "wife", there can't) be gay marriage.

 

[Neirai the Forgiven]

This is about what the Bible says about homosexuality.
Basically, it's wrong.

Agreed.

God tells us in the Bible that a man and a woman should come together in marriage. Only then should there be a sexual relationship. Notice the pronouns. "his" and "her".... possessive pronouns are very specific here to say what belongs to the husband and what belongs to the wife.

And lastly, from Marriam-Webster Dictionary (www.webster.com)
Husband: a male partner in a marriage
Wife: a female partner in a marriage

So, with these definitions of what the words mean, there is no way that two men could become married. There is no way two women can become married. Even the dictionary people say there shouldn't (and based on the definition of the terms "marriage", "husband", and "wife", there can't) be gay marriage.

Also agreed.

Where I disagree is where Snake_six says (and terribly sorry for some reason when I quote threads it doesn't quote their quotes so I don't have a quoted quote of Snake_six's quote that he quotes) something along the lines of "This is against natural order: God's Creation Ordinence is that humankind be fruitful and multiply, and homosexuals just can't do that."

First of all I think that this arguement breaks down on a few levels.
--What about single people? In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul talks about believers and marriage and how it is better for a man not to marry. Celibacy does not allow a man to be fruitful or multiply.
--Monks? Priests? Nuns? Same statement.
--What about new technology? Coming back to Durruck's excellent counter to my previous post, (i.e. So is homosexuality right if "Gay Marriage" is legal?) once Bill Clinton's ban on human cloning expires, gays and lesbians will be able to be fruitful and multiply. Or at least multiply.
--Promiscuous heterosexual people have fruit and multiply, but the book of Leviticus prescribes similarly negative treatment to them.

I just don't think that no-fruit/no-multiply is grounds for "going against the natural order."

Now, I do agree that homosexuality goes against the Divine Institution of marriage, and I don't think that so-called "Gay Marriage" is anything more than a shoddy attempt at assimilating the Divine Institution into some sort of human institution.

My reasons for thinking that have already been posted.. and at 3 hours past bed time, I'm not going to re-post them. :$


My question for this thread is this:
Yes, homosexuality is wrong. Yes, "Gay Marriage" is a feeble attempt to compensate for the Divine Institution that God set up and that homosexuality is in constant violation of. But, how are we to go about communicating these truths, and the solution to the problem (I.e. Jesus Christ and His love) to those He came to save, without being trite, judgemental, or irrelevant?

Discuss.

 

[Durruck]

My question for this thread is this:
Yes, homosexuality is wrong. Yes, "Gay Marriage" is a feeble attempt to compensate for the Divine Institution that God set up and that homosexuality is in constant violation of. But, how are we to go about communicating these truths, and the solution to the problem (I.e. Jesus Christ and His love) to those He came to save, without being trite, judgemental, or irrelevant?

While I delve dangerously close to the "Nature vs Nurture" debate, I honestly think that we, as humans, actually are somewhere in the middle. Yes, we have an innate understanding of right and wrong, but Satan oftentimes puts influences in front of us to deceive us. So we start with a nature of knowing, but are nurtured into confusion, as well.

While I'm not a specialist, I've heard interviews from councilors that talked to young kids that are trying to decide if they should give themselves to boys... if they should become lesbians... and after talking to them, finding that they've become confused by their peers, their music, the movies they watch, and so forth.

My point? I opinion on how to reach people is to reach out to them... and nurture them back. How do you do that? First, you have to love them. Be their friend, first and foremost. Make sure that you're a beacon of The Light at all times around them. Then, give them the word. Sneak it in, if you have to.

There are two ways to accomplish this, based on how receptive your audience is.

If your friend is less receptive, do little things. For instance, take them to see Christian-based movies like "End of the Spear", "Facing the Giants", or "Chronicles of Narnia".... find out what music they like and find similarly-styled music with Christian-based lyrics. You don't have to flood them with it... just have a Christian band playing on the radio or in the CD player while you're in the car talking. They may hear it, like the music, and ask questions. Common interests, especially in music, are great little ways to get the lines of communication open.

If your friend is more receptive to discussion, just drop it on them. God loves you. God wants you to repent in your transgressions, just the same as I have to repent mine. It doesn't matter what you've done, there is nothing so bad that God will turn you away if you honestly go to Him asking for forgiveness, mercy, and love. Nothing. God loves you.

Each person has a whole lifetime of experiences, thoughts, opinions... and some people are more difficult to reach. You have to tailor your approach to the audience to make sure you're being the most effective disciple that you can be.

*edit*

On a side note, "gay marriage" is just another attack from Satan to break down God's way. Just as the serpent deceived Eve and told her that eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil would make her an equal to God, Satan is trying to convince us that gays are righteous when they "marry". The problem is that they're looking for the wrong kind of love. The gays want to be able to be loved like a spouse in an earthly way... when a spiritual fulfillment is what's truly missing in their lives.

What about single people? In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul talks about believers and marriage and how it is better for a man not to marry. Celibacy does not allow a man to be fruitful or multiply.
--Monks? Priests? Nuns?

Paul explains that if you remain single and celibate, you can focus on doing God's work. For example, it's easier to become a missionary to a foreign land if you're not tied down raising a family. Similarly, priests (or in those days, rabbis) were travelers. They went from town to town, preaching the gospel. Kinda hard to do that if you're trying to make money to send home to feed the wife & children.

For some people, a life without a spouse is the path that God has designed, so that you can reach others more effectively.

 

[Neirai the Forgiven]

On a side note, "gay marriage" is just another attack from Satan to break down God's way. Just as the serpent deceived Eve and told her that eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil would make her an equal to God, Satan is trying to convince us that gays are righteous when they "marry". The problem is that they're looking for the wrong kind of love. The gays want to be able to be loved like a spouse in an earthly way... when a spiritual fulfillment is what's truly missing in their lives.

Wow, this really lines up with what my pastor was saying last sunday.

When Satan gives us a "solution" to our problems, it usually comes with the problem getting worse in every way other than the one area that Satan promised would get better (and you can decide for your self if that area got any better )

Example: Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.
--They were perfect.
--They were in harmony with nature.
--They could talk with God. In fact, they regularly took walks in the garden with him.
--They loved each other completely.
--They had free will.
Problem: They didn't know squat about the nature of Good and of Evil.

Satan's so-called "solution": Eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

Allow me to intrude for a second. In the above list of the attributes of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, only one of them is "not like God." That is, they didn't know anything about good and evil.

Result, post-fall.
--They sinned a lot... perfection was gone.
--They were not in harmony with nature any more.
--They hid from God, and tried really hard not to talk with him, at least in any intelligent way.
--They stabbed each other in the back, trying to get God to punish each other.
--We still have free will, but now we are likely to be enslaved to our passions, to sins, and to habits.
--We know about good and evil. Especially evil.

Now on THIS list, we're only like God in one aspect. That is, we know about good and evil. In other words, by following Satan's solution, we got screwed over big time, even though we thought it was going to help. Satan delivered what he promised, but at the same time we lost everything that was important to us and to God.

"Gay Marriage" works a lot like this. Most of the gays I know are nice enough, often they are trying to follow God, but on their own terms, of course. And to a man, every single gay that I have ever talked to has been confused. They're not sure whether what they're doing is right or wrong, they're not sure about God loving them, about other people loving them, or about whether or not they'll ever be accepted by others.

Satan tells them that if they get "married," they'll finally have a spouse that unconditionally accepts them and even loves them.

Now, if I were to ask you if anyone in your life unconditionally accepts you all the time and unconditionally loves you all the time, you would only have one answer, Jesus Christ. I mean, your spouse, as great as he/she is, is not capable of unconditionally loving you 24/7/365 without even a single moment of being upset or holding back. Not knocking marriage, but it is just a fact.

The (albeit few) gays that I know who have got "married" haven't found unconditional love and acceptance. Rather, they have found that not only are they with someone who is not giving them the unconditional love and acceptance that they crave, they have also driven a wedge between themselves and those people who did not understand them but were willing to accept them anyhow.


Now, I think that that means that as Christians we need to give them as much of that unconditional love and acceptance as God can get through us. That way they will be able to catch a glimpse of God's love, which is what they are looking for in the first place.

 

[notashamed]

My question for this thread is this:
Yes, homosexuality is wrong. Yes, "Gay Marriage" is a feeble attempt to compensate for the Divine Institution that God set up and that homosexuality is in constant violation of. But, how are we to go about communicating these truths, and the solution to the problem (I.e. Jesus Christ and His love) to those He came to save, without being trite, judgemental, or irrelevant?

Discuss.

i just listen to an awesome evangelist who answered this question. He wasn't specifically talking about homosexuals just anyone unsaved. What this evangelist talked about was loving them enough to lay out there choices in front of them. Example -my husband and I had been friends with someone for many years, we've been trying to be good examples and love him and invite him to church and all that jazz, but he wasn't getting saved that way. He just didn't see the need to he was a basically good person who believed in God so why do anything else. Two weeks ago, my husband was really burdened and wrote him a long email. Basically in a very loving way my husband said this. "I don't want to go to heaven and not see you there. All you need to do is believe in Jesus in your heart & confess him with your mouth and you'll be saved." My husband came to bed crying after writing it, he had such a burden for our friend. At first our friend was mad at him because he had felt that he was saved and that my husband had just not been listening to him. Then he realized how much he hadn't had faith in God and rededicated his life.

Point of my story-
You are right you must love them
You also must love them enough to risk anything & everything to get them saved, that's what Jesus did.

Not that his way works everytime, but you must be willing to speak the truth of God's love and not just try and show it because our love is far from unconditional.

 

[Durruck]

Each person has a whole lifetime of experiences, thoughts, opinions... and some people are more difficult to reach. You have to tailor your approach to the audience to make sure you're being the most effective disciple that you can be.

Your right you must love them
You also must love them enough to risk anything & everything to get them saved, that's what Jesus did.

Not that his way works everytime, but you must be willing to speak the truth of God's love and not just try and show it because our love is far from unconditional.

Wow. Awesome example. And I think that it falls in line with what I said. Tailor your approach to what your friend needs to hear. No lies, but still take the approach that may work. Obviously, your friend was past the quiet, gentle nudges. Open discussion had already happened, but your friend wasn't ready. Praise the Lord that your friend finally saw the light when your husband gave him the words that he needed to hear.

For some reason, Jesus' talk with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:1-26) is sticking out to me right now. Probably the example you gave is a related incident... But your husband put the truth out there - bold and sharp, exactly what the Samaritan woman needed to hear - specifically in John 4:17-18.

 

[Neirai the Forgiven]

You are right you must love them
You also must love them enough to risk anything & everything to get them saved, that's what Jesus did.

Wow. Deep. Now that I think about it I'm not sure I've really come to a place where I'd say "God, I'll give up every influence for the better I've ever had with this person, if it means you get through to her/him."

I think you've hit the nail on the head --- I'm thinking this has to be a key step to true and effective evangelism.

Not that his way works everytime, but you must be willing to speak the truth of God's love and not just try and show it because our love is far from unconditional.

Hmm. This is a very interesting point; I think I'll have to think more about it... it rings true but my brain doesn't seem to be able to grasp it easily

 

[lueff]

You want to know why homosexuality is wrong?



...




...



...because God said so.


Need I elaborate?

 

[TSCavalier]

I think the most important thing is to make sure that we (as Christians) remain compassionate and understanding.

For one, it's not fair to categorize homosexuals into the same label. The history, background, motivation, demeanor, spirituality, etc. of a gay person is as equally diverse and complex as that of a straight person.

Both gay and straight people desire love and acceptance... be it from friends, family, society, religion, etc.

Both gay and straight people have emotional needs. Where the similarities split is with regards to the "natural" means by which they are "programmed" to express love in a physical way.

I believe in the "gay" gene. More accurately, I believe that people's personalities are predisposed (based on traits passed on by their parents) to react to certain environmental stimuli in certain ways. In other words, it is my belief that people who are gay were "triggered" into being so by an environmental event or events either out or inside of their control, which would only be possible if they were predisposed to react to that stimuli based on their genetic predisposition.

Blah blah...

In other words, a quiet boy who tends to be more artistic, who is emotionally sensitive, etc. might be lambasted or picked on by more aggressive boys or even his own family. People might say he's a "sissy" or "soft" and he will see that these same attributes are assigned to girls. He might be assaulted by a relative or other adult for not being "manly" or being told "what's wrong with you, why don't you have a girlfriend."

The same boy might find that girls are nicer to him... but inwardly he craves the love and acceptance of boys (who have rejected him). He may then make the next logical step to find other boys in a similar situation... he can "be with" boys that are like him and that accept him.

Note that the SAME THING happens to a straight person. As a child, a "typical" boy will be rough-and-tumble. This will alienate him from more gentle and "emotional" girls. The girls will reject him ("Ewww!!! Boy cooties!!!"). Girls experience the same gender-gap. But as they mature, adulthood kicks in and girls and boys come to terms and find love and acceptance in what was previously denied in their childhood... attention from the opposite sex.

For a gay person, they are denied attention from their own sex.

Gender identity is one of the strongest forces in a person's world view. There are only 2 choices! And a person will crave the attention of whatever choice has shunned them in their younger formative years.

I'm not saying that we should deem homosexuality as acceptable in God's eyes (who are we do to that?). But I also think we as Christians should put our attention in treating the cause, not the symptom.

Homosexuality is a symptom of a person's personal perceived rejection from their place in this world. The cause is we as a society as a whole. We Christians are also too quick to reject homosexuals even further by effectively withholding God from them... certainly that is the perception.

Instead, as a Christian we should double our efforts to help those who are "social outcasts" just as Jesus did. Jesus never permitted an excuse for sin, but he did pardon sin... as should we.

Homosexual sexual acts are a sin, and this cannot be excused. Equally, if not more sinful, is for Christians to withhold God from a homosexual by further isolating them as the lepers of society.

Jesus meets all of us sinners where we are... gay or straight. As Christians, we should serve as a beacon that leads people to God... regardless of their means of expressing their sexuality.

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

I hate to be trite... but love the sinner, hate the sin, and make sure your hate of the sin in no way condemns the sinner.