Holy Paladins...scared of 2.1???

Kevin

Kevin

New Member
If I'm not mistaken, 2.1 is coming out this morning, and I was wondering how scared Holy Paladins are. I am currently leveling a paladin who (if leveled all the way) will be 100% holy. I was just hoping to get some info on how dependent on your crits you were to keep your mana pool up. Since that's the only change, would a change of focus to +heal and mp5 be enough to compensate for the lower mana back on crits?

Very Curious,
Loughkey
 
No. The math on the PTR shows that +crit is still the way to go. You would need hundreds of MP5 to achieve the mana regen of the new 60% Illumination. +Crit is still the most efficient way to go.

(I don't have a pali, so feel free to correct me. This is just what I have read on the forums.)
 
curiosity getting the better of me...

I was doing some math in my head, and a 25% crit rate on the old illumination is a 1.33 multiplier on HpM for pallys...the new one, given 25% critrate is about 1.18 multiplier (whatever 1/0.85 is...did that one in my head, not sure). That's a difference of 10% HPM reduction in the new patch.

for each % of crit you give up, you need to regen 0.012 * cost of a flash of light (~5 mp5 per % crit at level 70, assuming that the increased Mana cost of a Holy Light is offset by the fact that you're probably not spamming ALL the time...). That's assuming you don't need to spam HL, or it gets worse, and you need 18 mp5 per crit % just to keep up.

is 15% crit and 180+ mp5 even possible? or is 30% ish crit easier to obtain? Again, that math is all off the top of my head, I may make it a little cleaner later.
 
I found this quite funny...

Holy Paladin Single-Target Healing Efficiency died today, on Tuesday, May 22nd, 2007, at approximately 6am PST. Holy Paladin Single-Target Healing Efficiency was in it's home, and doctors say it died peacefully in it's sleep during the early morning hours. Cause of death is believed to be complications from a wound incurred from a Nerf stick, but the bleeding couldn't be stopped by a content patch.

There are no plans for a wake, and no new additions will be made to the Paladins limited healing repertoire to accommodate for the reduction in overall staying power.

Holy Paladin Single-Target Healing Efficiency was 2 and a half years old at the time of it's death. Holy Paladin Single-Target Healing Efficiency had a wife, Shadow Priest Synergy, who also passed away early this morning.


The following is an open letter to Illumination


It's been nice these last 3 years buddy. I mean, sure you're not going anywhere, you'll still be around just as much, but what, with the new wife and kid and all, you'll be about 40% less awesome.

It just kinda sucks man, you know? It's like... for these last 3 years you were pretty sweet, then out of nowhere, BAMF, someone says you're OP, and that's the end of it.

I guess that's how life is though, you know? One minute you're balanced, and then you're imba. You gotta roll with the punches though.

Take care of yourself Illumination. I'm sure we'll all still see you around, but it just won't be the same.
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Scarred? Not sure, disappointed our class had a huge nerf bat hit it to "improve" Priest Healing you bet.

Q: From the CM's replies on the forums regarding the diminishing role of priests in the current game content (PvE and PvP), we're led to believe there is going to be future review of priests. Can you provide us any insight on the changes that could be a possibility?
Kalgan: Well, i think some of the diminishing role of priests had a lot to do with the power of the illumination talent. With 2.1 there are some significant balance changes that should improve the role of healing priests in endgame content regardless of the fact that it wasn't the hpm/hps of the priests themselves that changed significantly.

Yep nerf the Pally talent that gives them some single target healing staying power and efficiency so you improve the ability of Priests to heal and thus make them more desireable end game. You can understand Blizzard's logic, it makes oh so much sense... I'll keep playing anyway I suppose.
 
IMHO, what ended up killing this talent was a change made a while ago. It was changing the priest 4.0 second greater heal into a smaller 3.0 second version.

To be a priest with a 4.0s heal, reduced to 3.5s with talents, it took a bit of mastering when to cast this spell. Weaker priests ended up just spamming flash heals, and thus in Blizz's data they saw that greater heal was not being used as much as it should be, so they changed it to make it more attractive to use.

However, the massive heals the 4.0s version produced where huge. At level 60, these heals were critting for 7-8k, and if let alone, I am sure at 70 we would see over 10k crit and more greater heals (Actually, I think I remember some priest in MC once going over 10k with a 4.0s greater heal)

So, when they changed this, it really put priests, imho, on a lesser healing tier and made paladin healing at least on par with priest. Now, they introduced this change to try to bring priest back into the main healing role. However, not sure if this will do it, as I think priest end-game healing is really not where it should be.
 
So the question is: if I'm going to take this healer all the way through heroics, if not raiding...does the plate and varied buffs of a pally make up for the limited selection of heals? If Blizz is going to try to "fix" priests by nerfing other classes...what does that mean for my aspiring holy paladin??? Would it be safer to run with a priest and avoid the impending nerf bat? I would HATE to get to 60 to find out that blizz made prot the pally's only raiding tree.
 
Yes, as I have mentioned before Blizzard's way of balancing the classes comes in the form of nerfs. Part of this is understandable, it is far easier to nerf a class or two than it is to rescale all the content to keep things challenging.

I do regret though that Blizzard can't test for this sorts of issues in beta more often. I fail to see how Blizzard couldn't see how strong paladin healing had become.

I suspect we will see further changes to paladin healing in a patch or two to come. Some of it may end up being relaxing some of the nerfs they just did a bit.

Last night I ran part of Arkatraz with a protection paladin, and we were talking afterwards briefly. He mentioned that changes in 2.1 may have adversely affected how much mana he can regen mid fight (even when his mana/health bar is not full). Can any other tanking paladins confirm or deny this?

Getting back on topic though, I wish they would do what they would just revamp the priest talent trees. Especially holy and disc. They are horrible. I know Blizzard has said they won't do any more tree overhauls, but imo both shaman (enhancement especially) and priest are in dire need of some talent tree attention.

Blizzard has failed to define what the goal of the priest's discipline tree is, imo. Holy is stronger and quicker heals, with some healing utility thrown in (some of which is worthless). Discipline is about....? More stats, a better bubble, and a some utility? The problem is there is too much overlap between the holy and discipline trees. Both increase your use of spirit, both attempt to address priest fraility, both address spell crit chance and potency of holy/disc based attacking spells, both address spell and mana efficiency, etc...

One other problem is the lack of solid/desirable 41 point talents for both holy and disc (the later I guess would be ok if you were a pvp priest.... maybe).

Another problem is that to be an effective priest healer you must spec into both holy and disc. This is not something that's just ok to do, it's a must. I am not aware of any other healing class in the game has this issue:

  • Holy paladins focus on the holy tree, and can dabble in another tree of their choosing if they wish.
  • Resto druids, focus on restoration and can dabble in another tree of their choosing if they wish.
  • Resto shamans, focus on restoration and dabble in another tree of their choosing (though perhaps in their case they may want to invest 5 pionts into the bottom tier of enhancement to get 5% more mana).

My point here is this: rather than address the elephant in the room (Priest's talent trees and spells are not designed well), Blizzard remains adamant that they are fine.... and then proceeds to nerf others to be where they think they should be with respect to the priest class.
 
Hope you don't mind me jumping forums. I don't think it is as bad as everyone is making it out to be. So a pally has to drink more often and spend money on mana potions, as a tankadin I had to do that pre 2.1. I remember the MC days when I was spec'd holy and felt bad taking a stack of 20 water from a mage knowing that I might only use a couple of them the whole night. The bottom line is the amounts of the heals did not change and either did the utility of a healadin. If all you see are 2 out of the 4 heal options (5 if you are draenai) then you are missing the boat. As a pally you are still the best class to prevent a raid wipe, protect the cloth, reduce threat, bless, emergency cc, outlast bad pulls, heal while being hit (you have to get that plate dirty sometime), judge useful debuffs and provide mitigation options to other raiders. Why wouldn't you fill at least 1-2 spots on a 10-25 man raid team with pallies.

As a long time Pally, it is easy to get into the mindset of playing your pally in a predefined role of healer, dps or tank and then feeling very limited but you will not find the true power of a pally until you realize you are not just one role but many.

To answer the tankadin mana question, it was a problem for me before 2.1. In my Kara raid gear doing 5 mans, I was always short on mana as I just have to much mitigation. It is the same problem with warriors. You get to a point where your mitigation cuts into your rage generation. Mana is after all the tankadin's blue rage bar. So for the lessor dungeons I actually run around with my spell damage gear at 370 def and give the DPS a run for their money spamming consecration then just put my tanking gear on for bosses.
 
So far I've found it not to be too bad. I drink a pot after I'm down 2500 or so mana so that my pot timer is up by the time I'm OOm and can drink another. I've balance my gear a bit btwn MP/5 and Crit as well.

On a side note: I'm bummed they severely reduced the amount of spell dam lvl 1 consecrate takes advantage of. Use to be cheap way to throw down some decent damage, I could get 75 -90 a tick off of it now it is only in the 30s. Lvl 2 consecrate seems to be the new mana/dps point for me...
 
So far I've found it not to be too bad. I drink a pot after I'm down 2500 or so mana so that my pot timer is up by the time I'm OOm and can drink another. I've balance my gear a bit btwn MP/5 and Crit as well.
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I do the same with potions, but that's not new for me in long fights.
I'll need a 5 man run as MH to really check things out..

I blow divine favor and divine illumination sooner into raid boss fights now, so I can use them again soon as the CD is up. I also have healing trinkets I use early in fights, so I can use them again before the fight is over.

MP5/+Heals and intel (Close to 13k fully buffed)
M..crit is around 18 unbuffed. I've never gone after +crit gear, but I'll be acquiring more of it soon as I start getting justicar gear, simply because it's one of the stats. The only crit gear I have atm is my epic lvl 70 pvp boots.
 
I went Holy about a week before the nerf, so I dont have a strong reference. But so far I can heal just fine with 8800 mana and 940 to heal.
 
alright, thanks for the replies all, I was just worried for my level 14 holy paladin, and had absolutely no frame of reference. (=
 
consolation

ben777jil said:
Good to know you got your answer Kevin!!! now you have to lvl him while CCing for me =P
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lol, don't worry Ben. You know I'm addicted to Lloki now. (= Not until he has spellfire will Loughkey (the paladin) see much action.
 
Pally healing update

Before Nerf:

MH 70 5 mans

After nerf:

MH 70 5 mans, Primary Kara healer, Solo healer in heroics slave pens. I used ONLY flash heal on the tank for almost every single trash pull in SP and even on the first boss. Drank 1 SMP on last boss early, just to play it safe.(I've done ramps, UB and SP, but we had 2 healers in ramps/ub).

So I can now confirm the sentiment that some pallies on the WOW forums have expressed, "We are dead as a Main healing class".

Danny
 
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