Free will, or election?

Pelagrin

Pelagrin

Member
First of all, we do have free will. We are not robots and can choose stuff like:
  • do I go to work today?
  • do I get myself a coffee this morning?
  • what will I wear today?
  • etc.
As a child, I was taught that I must choose Christ and ask him into my heart. I used to picture a tiny Jesus living inside my heart. However, I know now that this is not in the Bible. Salvation is not from a tiny Jesus living in my heart. Salvation is from the confession and belief that Christ death on the cross attoned for my sins....but that's not the point of this.

Rather, I'd like to see what you all think about free will versus election. I was always taught at a child that we have a free will and that we choose Christ.

God is soverign and omniscient. Yes? I believe that he is. However, if I acknowledge that he is soverign and omniscient, then how can I truely have a free will to choose Him? He knew before I was created whether I would "choose" Him or not. So did I actually have a choice? The Bible actually makes it appear that I can not choose him, but that he actually chooses me.


Jesus says that he is the only way to the Father, that he chooses us rathern than us choosing him, and that we reach him by being drawn by the Father.

Jesus said...
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you." John 15:16


In Acts, Luke wrote that those who were appoited to eternal life believed.
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 14:8


Paul wrote about predestination in Ephesians and Romans.
"...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..." Ephesians 1:4-5

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" Ephesians 1:11

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:28-30

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Romans 9:14-18


Paul also wrote in Romans that we were slaves to sin, but we are now slave to righteousness.
"But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness." Romans 6:17-18


What are your thoughts? Do we choose God? Can we choose God?
 
If God is all omni-everything and is able to give the gift of freewill then I choose to believe God is able to excercise freewill and chooses to not know whether or not you will choose God.
 
Gods_Peon said:
If God is all omni-everything and is able to give the gift of freewill then I choose to believe God is able to excercise freewill and chooses to not know whether or not you will choose God.
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I appreciate that and I don't mean this as an argument, but is that in the Bible?
 
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Yes, Jesus is in the Bible. Jesus is the living example that despite the Omni-everything of God, God can choose to know and what to not know. Is Jesus omni-everything? Yes, there are examples through out the new testament of Jesus knowing things before they happened, he knew Peter would disown him 3 times before rooster crowed. Jesus knew when it was his time to be betrayed and by whom. He choose his disciplines very specifically, before even meeting them. Yet Jesus does not know the time of his second coming? Is that a choice of God to keep some knowledge from the God head?

Does it not stand to reason then, that God, despite being all knowing all present, would have the ability to choose not to know or to choose to know whatever decision you will make?
 
Does the Bible teach that God the Father chooses to "not know" whether or not we will be saved? If so, does it contradict the passages that discuss election? Also, does the Bible teach that we choose God, or does God choose us?
 
Ok this is a hugemungus question and has spilt churchs and denominations for yonkes. It is actually an interesting question for me as I heard a principal tell a teacher of for teaching the children that God loves everyone. Saying God only loves those he has selected (frightening hey).

Anyways, The ground work:
1. The examples you give stating we do have free will (i.e. do i go to work or not) do not actually prove we have free will at all. Indeed, many would argue that we only have the illusion of free will and all our decisions are determined by or genetics and by or situational upbringing. Such ppl argue that free will is only possible if decisions are made purely at random as this removes any influence on the decision. Take what you will out of that but C.S. Lewis has the best defence of free will I have seen in Mere Chrisitanity - first couple of chapters.
2. You also have to remember that this has only been an issue for christians for a relatively sort amount of time. Indeed it is only really the event of positivism in science that individulas have struggled and demanded to have resolved controdictions. In the bible times individuals lived quite comfortable with contridictions without any concerns. I think this is why this issue is never resolved in thew bible and why Paul for instance makes statement supporting both free will and determinism, sometimes in the same book. i.e. if you dont worry about contridictions there is no need to try and resolve them.
3. Some theologians (including my old man) have recently taken a position refered to as middle theology that goes something like this. God knows all of the decisions we will make and can make and thus knows before we do what choices we will make. In this way he pre-determines those who will be saved. On the other hand, he does not make those choices for us but allows us free will to choose, despite knowing what we will choose already. Hence we have free will.

I am not overly convienced by this and sometimes feel my dad goes for it because it provides the best of both worlds. Not sure if this makes it true or not though. However, as a psychologist I have to hold a similar position. i.e. in order to study human behaviour, I must assume all behaviour is determined and thus free will is an illusion. On the other hand in order to treat patients I must believe they have the free will to be able to change.

This has lead me to this conclusion. When it comes to free will and determinism in relation to God. I thrust he knows what he is doing and know that what ever theory i can come up with will be hopelessly inaccurte and incomplete. However, in order to operate within the world, I hold to a theroy of free will to allow me to talk to others about Christ etc. all while acknowledging that this position does not represent absolute truth.
 
yes, it's a huge debate that has been in churches for a LONG time. i don't expect anyone here to resolve anything. However, it's always good to look at scripture and understand what it really says.

There are issues that I "know" are right because of my own experiences, my human logic, or background (the way I was raised). However, that doesn't mean that I'm right. I've learned that it can be good to set aside my pride and examine what the bible actually says on issues.

That is part of what got me really thinking on the election/free will debate a few years go, and it is something that I've continued to go back and forth on.

While we're on the subject, where does the idea of "ask Jesus into your heart" come from? That really is nowhere in the Bible. When i was a kid, I used to picture a tiny Jesus living inside my heart.
 
I suspect it comes from the joel quote that it quoted in the New Testament.

"This is the covenant that I will make with them

after those days, says the Lord:

I will put my laws on their hearts,

and write them on their minds,"
 
First of all, we do have free will. We are not robots and can choose stuff like:

* do I go to work today?
* do I get myself a coffee this morning?
* what will I wear today?
* etc.
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Robots can choose those things too cant they?

I would love to see a verse that says we have free will or even uses the words "free-will".

I tend to think that we don't have free will, I would love to not sin but I can never do it. I am not free to not sin therefore I have doubt in my freewill.
 
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ewoksrule said:
Robots can choose those things too cant they?

I would love to see a verse that says we have free will or even uses the words "free-will".

I tend to think that we don't have free will, I would love to not sin but I can never do it. I am not free to not sin therefore I have doubt in my freewill.
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Robots can only do those things if they're programmed. I do believe we have choice in some matters.

On sin, I personally agree. Paul says that we were slaves to sin and now we are slaves to righteousness. (romans 6:17-18) Although he doesn't say that we stop sinning. In fact, he claimed himself as the chief of all sinners and said that he does what he doesn't want to do, and doesn't do what he should do. (romans 7:7-25)
 
Other then "sin" at times, I do not feel a Coercion or Force moving my hands or making me do things. So that makes me think either I do have some freewill or if I am just a robot, someone did a great job programming me not to know it. :)
 
ewoksrule said:
Other then "sin" at times, I do not feel a Coercion or Force moving my hands or making me do things. So that makes me think either I do have some freewill or if I am just a robot, someone did a great job programming me not to know it. :)
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I agree, but that wasn't the question. ;)
 
ppar3566 said:
This has lead me to this conclusion. ... I thrust he knows what he is doing and know that what ever theory i can come up with will be hopelessly inaccurate and incomplete.
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I believe that this is quite possibly the best and most accurate answer this topic can achieve.

God knows what it's like to be human because of Jesus; and hypothetically speaking... even if there had been no Jesus, I firmly believe that he would still know what it's like to be human and wonder about topics such as this to which there is no definite and tangible answer.

One professor I had a while back said this about religion: "It does not make sense. You just have to run with it."

I think that this is one of those topics.

God knows we try our best. ;)
 
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Ok so your question was Do we choose God? Can we choose God?

My answer is God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true.

God chooses us for salvation before the foundation of the World and at the same time gives us the choice to believe in Jesus Christ and we will be saved. Both facts are equally true.

Yes this does not compute but we have small brains compared to God.
 
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Odale said:
I believe that this is quite possibly the best and most accurate answer this topic can achieve.

God knows what it's like to be human because of Jesus; and hypothetically speaking... even if there had been no Jesus, I firmly believe that he would still know what it's like to be human and wonder about topics such as this to which there is no definite and tangible answer.

One professor I had a while back said this about religion: "It does not make sense. You just have to run with it."

I think that this is one of those topics.

God knows we try our best. ;)
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Is that biblical? If so, where is it in the Bible?
 
ewoksrule said:
Ok so your question was Do we choose God? Can we choose God?

My answer is God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true.

God chooses us for salvation before the foundation of the World and at the same time gives us the choice to believe in Jesus Christ and we will be saved. Both facts are equally true.

Yes this does not compute but we have small brains compared to God.
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I'd have to say yes and no. According to the Bible, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ's death and resurrection. The question that has to be answered is "where does faith come from?"

Romans 10:17 states, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Is having faith in Christ crucified something that we do, or is it something that we will do?

Consider the following verses:
John 6:44, 65
Matthew 11:25-27
Matthew 16:17
Acts 16:14
 
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Your Romans reference should be 10:17 fyi ;)

Hearing is the method that faith comes through. This makes it clear it is not through some mystical dream or vision that we get faith, nor some superstitious or magic formula. It is not through hereditary descent. It is through hearing the preaching of the gospel that it happens. The hearing part is somewhat independent from any choice. One could both willingly and/or unwillingly hear the Gospel preached and right then and there have conversion of heart.

Grace saves us through faith and it is not anything to do with us but a free gift of God. God chooses to give us the free grace and the free faith. Somehow we get the choice to accept it, (however I bet most doctors who bring a dead man back to life rarely hear him reject the gift of life and ask to return to death.)
 
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I like your verse about Lydia. You can hear and hear the Word all day long but if the Lord does not "open your heart" there will be no salvation.
 
This makes me think about the whole "altar call" thingy. I believe we mis-inform people how it works in regards to timing. We preach a message then ask ppl to come forward to be saved. After they pray some magical prayer we tell them are saved. Now what if someone died from a heart attack on the way to the altar would they be saved?

I believe the people are saved in the pews before them come forward. They heard the message, God opened their hearts, they had faith and believed. They were saved instantly right then. The whole coming forward part is nice and all but has nothing to do with salvation.

The only way a sinner who is an enemy of God, a slave to sin, and spiritually dead (all 3 biblical descriptions of a non-christian) would ever walk forward to "accept" Christ is if they were just then saved and given a converted heart. (or if they are making a show for false reasons)

We should give Grace the credit and the hearing of the word, not the leading of someone thought some scripted "sinners prayer"
 
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