What it means to accept Christ and Toj member behavior

Discussion in 'General Discussion [toj]' started by The Mighty Gerbil, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. The Mighty Gerbil

    The Mighty Gerbil Tribe of Judah TF 2 Chapter Leader & CGA Admin Staff Member

    To go to the heart of the matter some people I know may have a fundamental misunderstanding about salvation and what it means to accept salvation. To reduce salvation to it's basic core...

    1. I accept I am a sinner.
    2. I accept that Jesus is the perfect and only begotten Son of God.
    3. I accept that Jesus died for my sins paying their debt.

    If you pray and accept this you are saved. I'd like to talk about steps two and three but as this is already a long post I'll focus on the problem, step one.

    Far too many "accept Christ" desiring eternal life, heaven, but run past "accepting I've sinned" not understanding it's significance. To believe you "sin" is to believe you do things you should not do. That you have committed immoral acts against God (and likely Man). To be saved you must first admit to yourself you need saving, that you need changing. To admit to a wrong is to admit I should not do this. One cannot be earnestly repentant and continue to sin without guilt. Christians, real Christians, still fail like everyone else but they will try to do better, to correct their sins, while the unsaved will only make excuses as to why their sins are acceptable. If you actually believe something you act on and live by it. Salvation is no different. I'll phrase it another way...

    Two separate people eat, drink and carry on with a lifestyle that makes them ill. A Doctor sees them both, for free, and tells them "I'll treat your illness but if you don't change your lifestyle you'll just get sick again". One takes the treatment and tells the Doctor they will change but upon leaving says to themselves "my behavior is fine everyone does it" because it's too difficult to change and they don't want to give up their fun. So their health deteriorates and they die. The other accepts it's wrong and works to change their lifestyle. They do still fail sometimes but rather than hiding their failures they work with the Doctor to improve themselves and in so doing live a long life. Salvation (the cure) is free and not something you can do yourself but you can't be cured if you can't accept you need to change, you'll just do it again. Of course this only deals with salvation on Earth. In Heaven, providing you gave consent on Earth, your Doctor completes His treatment and changes you to not desire these things at all.

    To accept salvation is to commit to a life of trying to do what is right (by God). As all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God you too will, at some time, fail in this pursuit but a Christian will still try. We were told that to go to heaven we should "become perfect". An act impossible without Christ doing it for us. Yet we were still told to pick up our cross, deny ourselves daily and follow after him. Salvation is by faith, not by our works, but if we are truly saved we will show our faith in our works, in a changed nature. Christians will try, the un-saved will excuse.

    Now that I've clarified the basics I should state why I'm bringing this up. I've heard tell of some Toj, and some others who report to be Christians, acting in a manner against Biblical teachings or what should be a morality common to all Christians. This isn't about behavior on a Toj server or at Toj functions. I've not had many problems there but really it's not about Toj at all. When a Christian is in the world you are a representative of Christ. The world lacking God looks to other men for guidance and to condone their behavior, you included. Do you show the character of Christ with vulgarities, sex jokes and homosexuality? When people insult Christians how can you defend them if your behavior is no better? Even more so when you wear a Christian clan tag which says "I am a Christian". You don't have to have all the answers, no one does, or be perfect, we aren't, but if you are not ready to try to represent Christ in your behavior don't wear a tag that says "Christian".

    You may say but I know this other Christian who does X why can I? He probably shouldn't but it's not about where you are in the race compared to another it's about whether you are even running toward the goal at all. Again the world looks at other men for their morality when we should look to God. God set the goalpost, the example of how we should behave, in Christ, not the Pope, not the President, not other Christians and certainly not me.

    Yes there will always be a debate on some subjects of right and wrong, there is some subjectivity. The Bible doesn't cover everything directly but on some subjects it does and you should know better (and to Toj members the charter is explicitly clear on a few things http://www.toj.cc/Charter.aspx ). Taking God's name in vain, sexual immorality in words and acts these are quite clearly defined as wrong. Even if it's not clear a Christian will want to do what is right, they will seek to please God first, to ask questions and not simply do things because the world does. I'm not a learned man but I'd be willing to talk about the few things I do know. I did do a write up of the rules of our server a while back which may help a little http://www.cgalliance.org/forums/threads/server-rules-explained.45562/ but it's in no way a substitute for prayer, thought and reading a Bible (suggestion read the new testament before the old).

    I've had a few people ask for admin. I believe they wouldn't abuse those rights, and in fact be helpful in combating trolls, but I know their behavior elsewhere and cannot give it to them knowing this. Two have openly supported LGBT the other has had questionable behavior on other servers. Again Christian behavior isn't just for Sunday, or for one server, it's for everywhere. If you wear the tag you represent Christianity. If you have admin you represent Christianity even more because now your behavior has the approval of others in authority. Not to mention an admin having to control their behavior would be a target for a troll pushing their buttons. Trolls actively seek to validate their lifestyle and if you cuss and return their hate you do just that. What will you tell them when you say your cursing is fine and then admin a server telling other people not to curse?

    I'm reminded when DC Talk quoted Brennan Manning on one of their songs "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." Yes you will stumble and fall sometimes but you can't let it stop you from trying.

    Yes I am aware of some other admins who were/are out there on some of these things. I can't vet everyone and there are no perfect admins. It just a bit more blatant on the ones I've rejected and if I've seen it others probably will too. Also, in spite of managing Toj applicants, I have no power over who changes their name to include the tag because it's just a Steam name change.

    In closing I may give admin to these people some day but it's on them to show a change in themselves everywhere not just at Toj. We don't have to be in perfect agreement but God sets the standard for right and wrong. Ask Him what you should be doing and be concerned about that. The only standard I control is how much I will tolerate in an admin and comparatively it's completely unimportant.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
    Daedious likes this.
  2. Patriot

    Patriot Active Member

    Well stated. I don't think I'm actually in ToJ (I certainly don't wear the tag) but I agree with your statement.

    I do take minor issue with the Brennan Manning quote (and have for years). To single out Christians as the greatest cause of atheism is absurd and unsupported by any facts. Consider our public school emphasis on evolution, society's idolization of science, and liberal's near-complete reign over mainstream media (with the exception of talk radio). Perhaps it does play a role, but not the single, greatest position suggested by Manning. And then you should consider that "Christians" in word but not deed are not Christians. Calling yourself a Christian does not make it so. We are known by our deeds (Matthew 7:16).

    Regardless of the cause of atheism, they are still called fools in the Bible (Psalm 14:1). The evidence of God is overwhelming, and to say there is no God, in spite of the actions of imperfect creatures, places the blame squarely back at the feet of the atheists. Attempting to guilt "Christians" into behaving better by blaming them for other people rejecting Christ does not seem to be the proper way to approach things. First because the people that care are probably already doing the right thing (or at least trying) and second because those that aren't doing the right thing already don't care.
     
  3. The Mighty Gerbil

    The Mighty Gerbil Tribe of Judah TF 2 Chapter Leader & CGA Admin Staff Member

    I agree it is likely most of the "Christians" causing atheism Brennan refers to aren't actual Christians. They are the "I'm a good Christian because I go to church sort". If they actually walked the line though it'd be a mighty force which I thought was the point. Statistically I wouldn't begin to know the percentage or even if there was a study but I'm not much for studies as they are only as truthful as the people taking and giving them. All the reasons you quote are definitely valid for our falling away from God too (as you know from my media rants :p). However I do know that anytime a prominent professing Christian (real or fake) fails it's all over news and held as example by atheists to do whatever they want (Molesting priests? That Christian guy with a large family show, groped his sister, was on an adult dating site?). Would atheists still do what ever they want? Definitely but let's not give them ammo. If our behavior has ANY effect on them it's worth checking it. I'm not going to quibble over the amount. I'd imagine 1 Corinthians 8:13 still applies if you are actually sinning too even if there are better reasons not too.

    To be explicitly clear Christians should do things first for the love of God not the un-saved. I'd like to say that is always enough of a reason for me but I still fail so it clearly isn't. So I'll add any valid reason that encourages me to do God's will because I want first to do God's will. One of the misconceptions by atheists is God is some angry old man arbitrarily throwing down rules. No. Sin always has a consequence on the Earth, in eternity, to myself and to others. These consequences provide more motivations to change.

    There are also certain things I don't do because they would not be seen by the un-saved in proper context. Words like "Damn" do have a proper time and place. That's why when you use it wrong it's called "inappropriate" language and not an obscenity or vulgarity. Thing is using it correctly may go over their heads if you aren't careful about it. Once when my secular scrim team was badly losing I used the phase "yeah they are feeling themselves now". It's was a reference to the adrenaline high you get from winning, er well rolling XD, but thinking back I think my team may have thought it meant something else. Every single time I see a ragdoll corpse hanging in a game I want to quip "how's it hanging" but that could be construed as just hanging out on a corner or something else. Thinking about it when I looked up the names Sir Thom and Glitch both are slang names for homosexuals but I don't think those members intended that at all. A dirty mind will pervert anything we can't help that, or live in fear of every word, but I still try to learn, be aware and use a certain amount of caution. There was a "that's what she said craze" if you didn't look it up you might think it was a harmless phrase. Once on our server I was in a good mood and stupidly called out a guy named "harry ...." not getting it until afterwards. I'm sure the guy was real proud of tricking the dumb Christian T_T.

    The post was written while thinking about the behavior of some people I know. Perhaps I did not emphasize doing it for the love of God enough, I'm sorry, I was too focused on thinking of them as admins and members representing Christians (I do tend to overthink things and skip steps). I do not want whited sepulchers. I can't claim to know their hearts but they profess to be Christians and have certainly tried to obey our server rules. If I didn't think there was something to reach I wouldn't have written this for them.

    Yet I still see some of the best of our members use God's name in vain multiple times. I don't think they notice, I do. Others I think are only ready for milk and bringing that up would be a bit far for them to go. The world is pretty dark and it's pull is great, I don't think they all see it. As far as guilt. Technically guilt is part of what motivates us to change. If we love God we will face the truth of our actions and, well, feel shame or guilt. Love may compel us but that guilt is intimately linked to it. It's not a guilt of "oh no I'm going to burn", fear of God is only the beginning Proverbs 9:10, it's a guilt of "I'm sorry I let you down father".
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  4. Patriot

    Patriot Active Member

    Everything I said had nothing to do with members of this community. I was trying to explain why I don't like that quote. I don't play games with you guys anymore (mostly because no one plays War Thunder) so I can't comment on the interactions you speak of.

    I just have a personal pet peeve of Christians tearing down Christians (or perceived Christians) in the name of trying to make them holy (or act rightly). I don't agree with this method and I don't believe the Bible agrees with this method. But that quote appears to use this method. Hence that quote conflicts with my pet peeve.
     
  5. The Mighty Gerbil

    The Mighty Gerbil Tribe of Judah TF 2 Chapter Leader & CGA Admin Staff Member

    No worries :) . I'm happy to have any input on any method you'd use. If it's right by God and gets results are my only qualifications. Bare in mind I'm kind of the head admin of the Toj server so I kind of have to make people "act rightly" on our server already. I'd rather appeal to their conscience, which involves guilt, and have them do things because they believe them than just tell them what to do. Even though I loath talking I've also offered to talk to people (on occasion) if they believe differently on moral subjects than I. I want to get it right too after all. Not many takers as yet.
     
  6. Patriot

    Patriot Active Member

    I tend to go with Matthew 18:15-17. Go to the individuals privately. If they don't respond, work it out with a couple witnesses. If they still won't listen then take it to the public (church or community) level. We are to edify/encourage the body (1 Thessalonians 5:11). But it sounds like you already offered to take that step based on the quote below:

     
  7. The Mighty Gerbil

    The Mighty Gerbil Tribe of Judah TF 2 Chapter Leader & CGA Admin Staff Member

    Yes that's why I didn't name any names. Also while my post was made thinking about multiple people it was not directed towards a single person or instance. Some people I know do those things but If I do know everybody else already knows because it was in public not because I called them out on it. If everyone sees a Church member kissing on someone who is not their wife in the parking lot and you then have a general sermon on the sin of adultery I don't think you are specifically calling or singling them out.

    Furthermore there are a few people I only suspect which needed to be covered.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  8. Daedious

    Daedious New Member

    I just wanted to say I enjoyed reading all of that. It gets exhausting being around Christians who are content with the basics and yet at the same time miss those basics altogether. Its hard to find individuals who have sound biblical knowledge. For example, I just started attending a new church (I moved) and visited a small group. They were teaching the trinity and it blew my mind that those who claimed to be Christians for years, in this group, had no idea that Jesus and God (and holy spirit) are the same. I think even basic church goers know that to some extent. lol
     

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