What do you think the Holy Grail is?

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Dark Virtue said:
And no, I don't believe there is enough evidence, unbiased evidence, to cleary state that Christ existed, let alone attribute divinity to him. Remember, I am also a Freethinker, meaning that I prefer to make my rational decisions that haven't been tainted by religion.
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The fact remains that there are secular references to Jesus and Christians (interpolations excluded) which are accepted by secular historians and theologians alike. That alone is nothing short of amazing

The reality is, Paul's writings, which most aren't disputed, we're written to Jesus' contemporaries (again undisputed) and were widely circulated decades after Jesus' death. So to assume that Paul was writing to people that would have known Jesus was an "invented Messiah/personality (take your pick)" just doesn't make sense. Again, he wrote to an audience that intimately knew Jesus existed. Paul was not only an evangelist, but an apologist.

As I said, I can understand your unwillingness to accept His divinity (even though I completely disagree and feel there's ample evidence in the historical record that shows otherwise), but to say there isn't enough unbiased evidence to prove His existence as an historical figure is where we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
ChickenSoup said:
Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Blaise Pascal... all Christian scientists. I think if some of the greatest minds ever produced believe in Him, why not us? :)
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Isaac Newton was an atheist and an occultist who recanted on his deathbed. Robert Boyle lived in 1640 - in his lifetime people still believed in the 4 elements and ether as the foundation of chemistry. What science was there to conflict with the bible?
Blaise Pascal? Another 1640's dweller. Perhaps these are the last great scientific minds that believed in the inerrancy of the bible? Seriously though, the man was suffering from PTSD and spent the ebbing years of his life trying to buy salvation through donations to the poor and touring the local churches.
 
Eon said:
Isaac Newton was an atheist and an occultist who recanted on his deathbed. Robert Boyle lived in 1640 - in his lifetime people still believed in the 4 elements and ether as the foundation of chemistry. What science was there to conflict with the bible?
Blaise Pascal? Another 1640's dweller. Perhaps these are the last great scientific minds that believed in the inerrancy of the bible? Seriously though, the man was suffering from PTSD and spent the ebbing years of his life trying to buy salvation through donations to the poor and touring the local churches.
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You say that, and my history and science books say differently. I heard them first, so...;)
 
By the way, I'd like some proof that Isaac Newton was an atheist. Perhaps some quotes? I'll go get my schoolbooks and quote his unatheistic statements. Thank you :)
 
ChickenSoup said:
Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Blaise Pascal... all Christian scientists. I think if some of the greatest minds ever produced believe in Him, why not us? :)
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Because some of us would like proof that God exists.

You named three Christian scientists...how many nonChristian scientists have there beent throughout history?
 
Watcher said:
The fact remains that there are secular references to Jesus and Christians (interpolations excluded) which are accepted by secular historians and theologians alike. That alone is nothing short of amazing
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What's amazing is that there isn't more.

Didn't we already discuss the problems with these secular references? (Tacitus, Josephus, etc)

The reality is, Paul's writings, which most aren't disputed, we're written to Jesus' contemporaries (again undisputed) and were widely circulated decades after Jesus' death. So to assume that Paul was writing to people that would have known Jesus was an "invented Messiah/personality (take your pick)" just doesn't make sense. Again, he wrote to an audience that intimately knew Jesus existed. Paul was not only an evangelist, but an apologist.
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Not disputed by whom?

As I said, I can understand your unwillingness to accept His divinity (even though I completely disagree and feel there's ample evidence in the historical record that shows otherwise), but to say there isn't enough unbiased evidence to prove His existence as an historical figure is where we'll have to agree to disagree.
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I suppose we will.

Let me try and explain my problem with this. If I step back and objectively look at this issue, I see overwhelming "evidence" by Christian theologians and historians. Now, as a Freethinker, that throws up a red flag of bias. Now, I haven't given up on the issue, so I turn to secular sources for an unbias look. When I say secular, I mean those without an axe to grind. I'm sure we can both agree that there are bias secular sources that offer up "evidence" that Christ did NOT exist, right? So after I wade through both camps, I'm left with, what I believe is, an unbiased account. These accounts do not show an overwhelming amount of evidence for his existence. Nor do they show an overwhelming amount of evidence for his nonexistence. I don't believe that there is conclusive evidence either way. Now, it's much easier to prove a positive, so that's where I concentrate. "Prove all things", remember? I'm not in a hurry to make a decision, I'd much rather it be well thought out and based on proof and evidence.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Because some of us would like proof that God exists.

You named three Christian scientists...how many nonChristian scientists have there beent throughout history?
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Oh, there's more. I can go get my science/history book and name off a few more.. besides, they were some of the greatest minds... ever. You don't think that Isaac Newton readily accepted something without reviewing it first?
 
LOL, how quickly you embrace science when you think it's on your side.

Crack open one of those science textbooks and show me where it proves God exists. Hmm...I don't believe Newton ever proved that, did he?
 
DV, you're like my wife ... she likes to change subjects and twist words around so that it favors her side of the story, but I always catch her :)

Anyways ... name 12 people, actually, name 1 person that proclaimed to have first hand experiences with their "messiah" (someone you claim doesn't exist) and have their limbs torn apart by horses, crucified on a cross upside-down, be-headed, stoned, etc. - all because they believed what this person said and who this person was (there might be other people like this, but I haven't spent time to research it, I was just honestly asking if you can name anybody and prove a point in the below paragraph).

If it were me, and I was making up this "religion" based on someone that is make believe ... when they started tying my arms and legs to horses ... I'd probably say something like, "ok guys, I was joking, Christ didn't exist, this person isn't divine, he didn't produce miracles etc. - you can untie me now"
 
You know what DV. The only way you'll ever hov proof is if you stopping asking for it. No, no, no, wait. Don't tell me you want me back that up cause here it goes. Spiritually we are all blind, we connot see God, but we con here Him calling. People like you are too busy yelling at the top of your lungs "Where is God? I con't see Him, how do you know He's there?" that you con't here Him calling. Trust me, once you've felt His hand leading you you'll hov all the proof you'll ever need.
 
Okay, this thread has gotten totally out of hand. When posts include name calling / profanity, that is it. I was hoping you would learn to deal with such situations in a more appropriate manner...leading to unmoderated forums.

This thread will not be re-opened without apologies. Please feel free to PM

Gen

GENESIS1315
 
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