The Alien Question part 1

You mentioned that "Early Church Fathers Believed the Creation Days were Long" but actually many did not.
I did no such thing, merely pointing out an alternative interpretation and theoretical assertation by a man I know not.

Are you taking offense brother?
 
No no, I am taking no offense :) I feel this is a pleasant conversation, but surely the 'evo vs creation' topic is one that can get nasty quick. I am not even 100% sure the ToS of these forums allows us to discuss it due to it's divisive nature. ;-)

and to clarify earlier, I did not mean to infer that what you are saying is "horrible" but only that the practice of taking verses from all over to prove a point "could" lead to horrible things if taken to extreme. That is why we have to be careful.
 
SURPRISE!

Hrrm, I hope it is acceptable to you to convey the process of my understaning?
This is a thread for discussion, yes?

There are many inconsistencies in the theory of Progressive Creation. According to many conservative theologians, the most dangerous of its teachings is the proposal that Adam and Eve were created after the majority of earth's history had already taken place, including eons of death among the animals. Their timeline includes millions of years of major disasters befalling the animals before Adam or sin, including disease, famines, volcanic destruction, hurricanes, tornadoes, asteroid impacts, supernovas etc. As a result, animals frequently became extinct, never to be seen by man. The belief that death existed prior to the fall undermines the Bible's clear teaching that death is a result of sin (I Corinthians 15:21-22; Romans 5:12). Any theory which places man or animal death prior to the fall of Adam must be rejected.
The only possible way that I would be willing to view proogressive Creationism as true in light of this statement is in the light of spiritual life & spiritual death.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Or, more aptly put; “in dying thou shalt die.”
eg;spiritual death/separation from God followed by a physical death as the end result of sin.

James 1:15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So, in this regard, the only way that progessive Creationism could possible be true is if man did not enter the picture until later. As I do not believe that animals possess a 'spirit' per say [as created in the image of God is reserved for man], ergo, it is not really death [spiritual separation from God, from Whom they were never joined to begin with, seeing as they are spiritless creatures] per say, is it?

Also, the sin of man preceeds death to man, as Scripture states. God does not imply that the creature was subjected to a sinful nature because of Adams transgression or our sin, does He? Was he not, rather, fashioned as a brute beast?

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This next view I cannot condone and vehemantly oppose;
Progressive Creation erects a subtle barrier between the believer and the Bible, a wall is constructed between the believer and God Himself.
For it is in direct opposition to the Word of God given us in Scripture;

2 Corinthians 3:16
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Romans 8:33-39
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jeremiah 23:23-24
Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

So far, from what I've seen of these articles they are written in a sour spirit.
They are not written in mercy and love for the persons who believe differently than they do. They merely seek to establish the truth at the expense of persons.

I specifically chose the article I originally posted because it was written in the right spirit, one of gentleness and meekness, with a spoonful of tact, no matter the belief, for the foundation stands sure, which is Christ :)

The beliefs pertaining to this subject, as that of aliens, is, again I state in the Spirit of my God, not a reason for unheaval or tribulation, merely speculation and contemplation before our God :)

Have you never imagined what Heaven on earth will be like?
Does it HAVE to be just like you pictured?
Will you be dissapointed when you find out it's better?-lol :eek:

1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

I will reveal my motive now :)
As you can plainly see, we could go round and round this bush-meh

When I was first born again I found I was extremely hungry and thirsty for both God and His Word and I sought out every Christian I could find, every Christian music song and every Christian Ministry in order to know the Truth. But I failed to look within me to the One in Whom I dwelt. I searched high and low for Jesus in and through all things, only to come full circle on my tiresome journey.

I am still hungry, still thirsty, but I am also a whole lot wiser in that I know now to turn to God alone to meet my needs.

When it comes to presupossitions and theories which change on a whim, I am not easily swayed from my course any longer. For these things are irrelevant to faith, but necessary only for this worlds system. It matters notta whitt whether the earth was created 6000 years ago or 6 trillion years ago. What matters is faith, expressing itself by Love! :)

From my perspective, the reason Genesis 1 is so cryptic is so that we learn to look past the creation to the face of the Creator, the Father of us all!

I do not believe in either of these theories, I'll tell you that straight up now that I've had my say. I believe in God. And I am not willing to attempt to box Him in for I know what it is like to have a presuppositional belief that you hold dear [eg;idolatry] shattered before your very eyes.. Traumatic, to say the least.. Especially in light of the hurt it caused others :(

I said what I did because people need to know that these things are fruitless, shivelled shells of what was once known as enlightenment.

Hebrews 1-Hebrews 2:3
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


I knew beforehand this conversation would come full circle, and in my opinion it has-heh-For I've been down this road before..

Ecclesiastes 1:14 ASV
I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind.

It is a hard lesson, but a good one ;)
 
Last edited:
To ensure full disclosure before I continue: I lean young Earth.

Paul, however, leans old Earth. Both of us agree the other could be more right. (Frankly, I don't think any of us have it totally correct. I don't think our limited, mortal minds can completely grasp the totality of anything God does!)

What matters is that we are both certain God did it, and He is in control.

You say it's a horrible result, but what I see as a horrible result resulting from YEC is that a lot of scientific facts [and thus the people behind the science of discovering these facts] are left out of the loop!
Don't confuse scientific fact with the conclusion drawn from those facts.

We know that when certain tests are performed we get certain results. Scientists have then taken these results and decided that they mean certain things. However, many of the presuppositions made by modern science cannot be proved. In fact, one of their main presuppositions–that everything has a natural, non-supernatural cause–is anti-Biblical. Current scientific theory makes no allowance for ANY miracles, period.

This isn't to say that all their findings are wrong. Most of modern science's beliefs can be proved; many of them are proved every day through practical application. But we can't assume that something is true because they say it is. They've been wrong in their interpretations before.

There are many, many sticking points for both sides of the issue, young Earth and old Earth. You just don't hear about the scientific difficulties for OE, because the scientific community doesn't want you to.

And they just aren't covered in science classes, even high-level classes for science majors. I was a physics major before I switched programs, and everything I know about the shortcomings of evolution theory and the age of the earth came from my own study. NONE of the problems with the basic assumptions in science were ever mentioned or acknowledged in any of my classes, not even in Quantum Mechanics. And in that class we were learning the theories and mechanics behind things like radiometric dating (carbon dating), and how to do all the necessary experiments and calculations.

We have to trust the Bible, first and foremost. Each of us must try to determine what it means, regardless of what science might say. Figuring out how the science fits must come later. Honest, faithful Christians can come to different conclusions, but what matters is that we give God His rightful place in Creation, and that we treat others in a way that honors God, even if we disagree with their conclusions.
 
Back
Top